Missin U <3 - lamentations for those felled by the SB

This has nothing to do with Bimble, but if the SB system is here to stay, I'd like to suggest a feature that would make it work better. I think when a person gets suggest banned, he should be able to see all his posts that gathered the 51 SBs. If the idea of SB is to correct the "dickish" behaviour of a poster, it would make sense for him too see what others thought were his offenses. For example, before Jjjusten mentioned it in this thread, I had no idea I had gotten a lot of SBs for making a link to a silly discussion on St0rmfr0nt. I had no idea they track back all links to their site, so I didn't know I was doing something punishable. I got immediately yellow carded for this by a mod, so I would have not done it again even without the suggest ban.

Anyway, my point is, in the previous system, when a mod banned you, you knew why you got banned. With SB, if you get banned, it might not be very clear what the reason for your ban is (unless it's something really obvious, like Ethan's image flood). So you might imagine the reason you got banned was, for example, your unpopular opinions or your sexuality, which could just lead to bitterness and not any sort of "correction" in your behaviour. (Or, in the worst case, you might become afraid of expressing your opinions in fear of another ban, which I don't think was the reason the SB system was installed.) When I was SBed, I honestly thought it was only because I was so strongly and stubbornly opposed to secret boards and the SB system itself. So if you still intend to continue with this system, I think it would benefit everyone to let the banned person know what he was banned for.

think when a person gets suggest banned, he should be able to see all his posts that gathered the 51 SBs.

That's actually a pretty good idea.

tbh id sort of like to see which posts of mine garnered my 25 or whatever SBs

26 or whatever ;)

don't quite understand your suggestion tuomas, can you come up with a tortured analogy to make it a bit clearer please

When I was SBed, I honestly thought it was only because I was so strongly and stubbornly opposed to secret boards and the SB system itself.

Tuomas, if this is really what you thought, it means you don't listen when people tell you stuff, so an indication in any other form of which posts got SBs won't help the matter

I think bannees being able to see which posts got them SB'd and by who is bad and could lead to actual unpleasantness, petty "revenge" etc. - the system hinges on anonymity

maybe knowing which posts, if any, got you over, say, 5 SBs could be useful tho - but not revealing who did them.

What do you mean "people tell you stuff"? No one had told me the St0rmfr0nt thing got me a lot of SBs before Jjjusten mentioned it on this thread. And why wouldn't seeing the posts that got SBs help the matter? Surely it would do no harm anyway, but in the best case it might help some people mend their ways.

(x-post)

that said i would love to know which single post has acquired the most SBs - one of ethan's deliberate Biggie spams maybe (but there were so many, damn vote split)?

I think bannees being able to see which posts got them SB'd and by who is bad and could lead to actual unpleasantness, petty "revenge" etc. - the system hinges on anonymity.

I didn't say the banned person should see who SBed him, just which posts garnered him the SBs. Anonymity would still be respected.

And I think you should be able to see all the posts that garnered the SBs. If one post got you 46 SBs, and later on 5 other posts got you 5 more SBs, just seeing the last 5 would not be that helpful.

I think there may be something in Tuomas's idea - I too thought T just got banned for being a little stubborn and repetitive on the anti-SB thread, though I didn't see the St0rmfron7 link at all so maybe whichever thread that was on was full of outcry

and then if any SBs were for anything particularly innocuous maybe you could take it up w/mods, though I realise they have better things to do and don't want to be emailed whingefests about "come on man this one and this one are not worth an SB so therefore I am only on 43 tops" etc

(also is only part of the story - the only time I remember clicking SB was some guy saying "punk is moronic and worthless", which is a tiresome opinion annoyingly expressed but would not be SB-worthy if I hadn't just gone to an ILM punk thread for a break from reading the same poster being a condescending jerk on one ILE thread and thought "thank christ this random googler is only on the one thread")

I don't think it's actually workable anyway - we've only been able to see specific posts that garnered SBs for a month or two anyway. Most of the people with a lot of SBs racked most of those votes up early and have slowed since.

So for most of the people likely to get a month off, it's actually impossible to see which posts prompted the majority those SBs. You'd get an incomplete picture at best and virtually no useful information at worst.

and then if any SBs were for anything particularly innocuous maybe you could take it up w/mods, though I realise they have better things to do and don't want to be emailed whingefests

Well, the mods have continously said that most of the SBs come from
trolling or dickish behaviour, and "wrong" opinions or stuff like that are not a reason to SB anyone, so if in the future someone was actually SBed for innocuous reasons, he should have the right to complain about it.

So for most of the people likely to get a month off, it's actually impossible to see which posts prompted the majority those SBs. You'd get an incomplete picture at best and virtually no useful information at worst.

Then there's a big flaw in the SB system. If it's supposed to curb dickish behaviour and let the banned poster return after a month as a better person, it's kind of problematic if some of the banned posters don't know why they were banned. In the worst case they might be afraid to say anything that might be in any way considered "controversial", because they fear they will get SBed for the second time.

have we done a 'do you like the SB system? yes/no' poll yet? would it be dickish to start one?

nb. i am pretty much in favour of it and not trying to start trouble, just curious. that's why i am asking first

suggest ban sucks (unban LJ)

(This was done early on, though, a new poll might get some more votes.)

If it's supposed to curb dickish behaviour and let the banned poster return after a month as a better person, it's kind of problematic if some of the banned posters don't know why they were banned.

Suggest Bans - acting as a substitute for self-awareness since 2008.

also i think every time you suggest ban someone you should have to enter in a reason why theyre being suggest banned, which is accessible by the user who was banned

― max, Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:33 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

like i have XX amnt of bans--but what i really want to know is, why, and which posts of mine were the ones that ppl sbd

― max, Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:33 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

weird it got 25 votes when presumably 51 ppl cared enough to click to ban LJ

i mean really that poll should be tallied as
against — 13
for — some number between 38 and 63

nah cuase i think there are a lot of reformed s-banners--like i suggest banned tons of ppl early on but i saw the horror of my ways when we lost jagger 1.0

i guess i mean the error of my ways, but it was horrible

Correcting dickish/trollish behaviour has constantly been given as the main justification for SB system. What I'm proposing is something that would give the banned posters a chance to evaluate their behaviour without the sort of ambiguities and misunderstandings that might follow from now knowing what exactly were the reasons he was banned for. As far as I see, doing this wouldn't harm anyone and might help people to behave themselves. Surely it's not impossible to change the code so that all SBed posts are visible permanently?

(x-post to Matt DC)

weird it got 25 votes when presumably 51 ppl cared enough to click to ban LJ

The poll was on IMP board, and I think many people don't read it regularly.

tuomas, i'm curious what you think of momus' saying you crawled back to ilx after you were unbanned. and are you comfortable with him speaking for you like that, defending yet condescending

passing spacecadet, I googleproofed st*rmfr*nt for you -- I don't want to be on their radar, plz.

You know what this re-discussion and re-questioning of the SB system means, don't you? Momus got what he wanted.

D'ya reckon the st0rm4r0n7 gang actually google shit like "st0rm4r0n7"? :-/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Front_(album)

^ copy/paste. nu-ilx doesn't like parentheses?

It's that final ) -> email clients don't like URLs that end in them either.

You know what this re-discussion and re-questioning of the SB system means, don't you? Momus got what he wanted.

yeah but that's how it always works with people who didn't really graduate from the "it's awesome to get attention" stage of development

i just thought it meant we were having the same "debate" we've been having monthly since dom and ethan died.

Yeah, this debate started long before that Momus blog post.

For the record, I don't think Momus being a cock should preclude us from discussing whether the suggest ban system is desirable (my opinion: it is, but I understand why others disagree), workable (my opinion: it is) or if it could be improved (my opinion: it can). We were having this discussion before his blog post and there's no reason not to have it now.

I'd also like to suggest we stop discussing him now.

Cosine that last point.

How d'you think the system cd be improved, Dan?

(Incidentally I am sure I have SB'd people on occasion not for particular posts but because they reached a point of "ffs I GET YOUR SHTICK NOW THX" and I'm sure I'm not alone in that so I'm not sure how enlightening lists of posts wd always be.

I like the idea of giving someone banned some idea of the context behind their banning. I also like the idea of having an automatic unban counter because sometimes I/we forget exactly when someone was banned and don't unban them immediately on the day their ban should be up. I also like the idea of the system notifying the moderators that someone has crossed the threshold rather than automatically banning them.

My issue is that some of these things require additional coding, some of which run counter to the design of the site software; shoehorning in features counter to the design usually has awful unintended consequences and I would be wary of ripple effects created by changes made to accommodate the automatic functioning of some of these things. Doing some of these things manually would require some incredibly tedious accounting by the mod team; at the end of the day, the work involved in that may be preferable to potentially destabilizing the site to wedge in some more features but it probably needs more discussion/planning to see how it would work.

The biggest thing we need at the moment (with respect to SB and the site in general) is a better FAQ; this is in-progress.

An FAQ of things that people frequently find SB-worthy wd be good.

I think I know this answer but: would it be possible to have a thread wherein people discuss the general - rather than personal - types of post that make them click the SB? Without it turning into another gruelling excursion into navel-gazing/rep-rep-repetition?

I don't think so but that's no reason not to try starting one.

(lol negatives)

bang up job by marcello in his comment on momus' blog post where he says that the suggest ban was "inevitably" going to lead to someone killing themselves "sooner or later". also where he says that he heard "vague suggestions" that the suggest ban feature was implemented as some sort of ilx auschwitz so that the board could be "cleaned up" in order to attract "commercial sponsors"

I have heard VERY vague suggestions through the grapevine that the SB thing is an attempt to "clean up" ILx in the hope of attracting future commercial sponsors to keep the boards going financially. If true - I have no idea whether it is, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it were - then the veneer of democracy is going to fade very quickly indeed.

er WHAT???

if ever there were a pair to judge social behavior....

I mean come the fuck on. In what universe does that make any kind of sense whatsoever?

i trust our masonic mod overlords to make the best decisions for ilx -_-

new ile board description please

most posters are mad, socially awkward, impacifiable nutters who'll steer multiple coastal miles off a topic.

oh max

in the worst case they might be afraid to say anything that might be in any way considered "controversial"

This is the best possible outcome, actually.

btw i finally read momuss post--lot of a+ stuff going on there but i think the best part is at the end when he champions the exoticization and romanticization of gypsies as being good for their community and their tourism dollars