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tom brady certainly has an argument to having the greatest career of any athlete, but calling a guy who could never run fast than a 5.0 on his 40-yard dash the greatest athlete ever grinds my gears a bit haha

*faster than

i mean you have to say he's had the greatest career of any football player

but he's not the greatest athlete

Jordan has the accomplishments plus groundbreaking play plus athleticism

Tiger Woods the same

Brady didn't change anything about how the game or his position was played

I think Wayne Gretsky kinda wins this argument

hockey isn't real

actually it's very real and I'm so sick of hearing about it all the time

idk these arguments are weird when it comes to football cuz to me Mahomes was clearly the better QB, as was Rodgers the game before, but the Bucs made it so much easier on Brady, he was mostly hitting short throws from the pocket, which even say Mitch Trubisky could do. you don't see stuff like that in the NBA, where you usually live and die by your best guy.

yeah theres sort of a problem with making team sport championships the deciding factor for individual greatness lol

even in the nba tho there it is more excusable

the Super Bowl MVP has become "the QB of the winning team" but the Tampa d-line collectively should have gotten in if we're being real

^ this

one thing that seems to have been forgotten is how the Bucs basically overhauled their entire team in 2019 (including hiring Arians) and were still running a QB that threw 30 interceptions. in retrospect it's not surprising that they were really good this year

yeah with the defense, plus Fournette they basically built a team that was ready to get in an drive for a competent quarterback

I wasn't at all proposing Brady as the greatest athlete ever, more wondering if he's the greatest team-sport player ever. I thought about this after I posted last night, and I think it's something you could measure, but it would involve, at a minimum, four variables:

1) The relative importance of a player's position to the success of the team (e.g., a quarterback vs. a center in basketball vs. a goalie in hockey, etc.).

2) The relative strength of a player's teammates (LeBron James seems like the guy able to accomplish the most with the least).

3) The relative difficulty of winning the championship in various team sports (as measured by repeat winners, number of league teams, length of playoffs, etc.).

4) The relative quality of competition during an athlete's career. (Russell had to contend with Wilt Chamberlain; I know just enough about football to know that Brady's career overlaps with the Mannings, Aaron Rodgers, etc.)

I think there are ways to measure all those things. But obviously, extremely complicated.

Mahomes was terrible in this game — holding on to the ball for far too long, trying to make plays. But yeah, the narrative is all about how the O line let him down. Being a great QB isn't about arm strength or how well you throw on the run, it's about playing smart and reading defenses. That's why TB12 is the GOAT. And Brady could have thrown for a lot more yards, but there was no need after the first half. Run the ball and kill the clock.

well i mean holding the ball and making plays is sort of the patrick mahomes value proposition. due to a handful of factors it did not work in this particular contest.

also worth mentioning that variance plays a huge role here. football is a uniquely swingy game with a single-elimination playoff structure, which is huge given how reffing works, when a hold on the opposite side that's called maybe 20% of the time can nullify a game-changing interception. obviously Brady has gotten a ton of these calls in his favor, not just the last 2 games but basically his entire career - wasn't there a study 5 years ago concluding that the Patriots got overwhelmingly favorable calls in the playoffs? then you add in the fact that his opponents have literally never touched the ball in playoff overtime games, the cakewalk schedule he was gifted from playing in the AFC East for 20 years which pretty much guaranteed him a first-round bye every year, etc. how much bad luck has Brady really had to deal with in his career? the helmet catch and then the leg injury in 2008, what else? it's unreal.

that's what makes it so hard to evaluate, Brady obviously an all-time great and he's been on a contender nearly every year but idk if you'll ever see the stars align so perfectly for a player like that ever again. the Colts, Packers, and Steelers had some great teams that lasted years, but they couldn't avoid untimely injuries, game-swinging calls, and odd shit like bungled onside kicks & the randomness of fumbles

Mahomes was terrible in this game — holding on to the ball for far too long, trying to make plays. But yeah, the narrative is all about how the O line let him down. Being a great QB isn't about arm strength or how well you throw on the run, it's about playing smart and reading defenses. That's why TB12 is the GOAT. And Brady could have thrown for a lot more yards, but there was no need after the first half. Run the ball and kill the clock.

kind of curious where you think he should've gone with the ball, not only was his OL comically overmatched but his receivers were not making the plays they usually do. he didn't exactly have a checkdown option on any of those crazy scrambles. if the roles were reversed Brady would've been sacked 15 times.

patriots had a lot of swingy things go against them too, recall the helmet catch, a famously uncalled pass interference etc, i mean they lost 3 superbowls they lost a bunch of playoff games, thats somewhat obscured by the fact they went 12-4 for 20 years, basically they just had a lot of shots at it, which makes the playing in a weak division point a little more salient, tho on the other hand the fact that they lost to the dolphins once every year balances that out somewhat xp

those other teams that put together long runs in the end just didnt do it for nearly as long or as consistent as the pats

ALSO one often overlooked way in which brady helped them win was accepting less than market value contracts, some of those colts teams mightve looked a little different if peyton did the same

"holding onto the ball too long" a weird complaint when you could physically see defensive ends and linebackers in the backfield immediately after snap.

Mahomes was pressured the most times in SB history (29 times in 56 dropbacks). Brady was pressured 4 times in 30 dropbacks.

Not sure why you're ignoring that not so insignificant difference.

Nevermind the number of drops by Chiefs receivers and TEs

There was at least one sack where the LB was in the backfield so fast Mahomes couldn't even scramble because he was being wrapped up almost immediately

bucs coverage was really good too

Brady was absolutely mauled in Super Bowl XLII, and the Giants' defense basically shut down the Patriots. Still, he managed to put his team ahead late with a TD pass, before that crazy helmet catch. Mahomes is supposedly the best QB in the league and his team is an offensive juggernaut, yet he didn't score a single point in the biggest game of the year, throwing two picks and getting sacked three times. He had an awful game no matter which way you slice it, is all I'm saying. I expect he'll learn a lot from this game and play even better going forward.

Mahomes didn't forget how to QB. The Bucs just solved him and the Chief offense with their schemes

Xpost yep it looked bad early on when Mahomes kept having to take off. Bucs not spying often so having another guy in coverage.

He was getting first downs a lot early on the run but the drives were stalling out.

So yr just gonna stick to yr narrative in defiance of facts? K

BTW they refer to Brady as the "losing quarterback" in that super bowl and he had the worst game of his season

mahomes banged up + both kc starting tackles out could really explain the whole thing, im not saying it does but it could

helmet catch game and this one were similar in that the only way to stop a great quarterback at the height of their powers is to get a consistent rush with your front 4

pats also had injuries to their O line that game

i mean they lost 3 superbowls they lost a bunch of playoff games

true, it's pretty incredible that all three of those SB losses could've turned on a single play...but still. Brady's won 76% of his playoff games, which is fucking nuts given that he had the first-round bye so often and therefore couldn't rack up wins against 9-7 teams that limped in. the Pats were very good, probably the best team in the league at least 5 of those years, but that's still pretty fortunate

those are pretty ridiculous numbers tbf, some of that is due to having a ridiculous home field advantage whatever that is, but obvs cant explain it all

wld be fun to see what those numbers look like without last minute game winning drives by brady

Brady was absolutely mauled in Super Bowl XLII, and the Giants' defense basically shut down the Patriots. Still, he managed to put his team ahead late with a TD pass, before that crazy helmet catch. Mahomes is supposedly the best QB in the league and his team is an offensive juggernaut, yet he didn't score a single point in the biggest game of the year, throwing two picks and getting sacked three times. He had an awful game no matter which way you slice it, is all I'm saying. I expect he'll learn a lot from this game and play even better going forward.

the 2007 Patriots had a point differential of +315 and were 17 point favorites in the Super Bowl. this year's Chiefs were +111 and 3.5. I don't think you can really compare the two games.

funny factoid about the brady era is the one year they missed the playoffs was when brady blew out his knee in the first game of the season (also the first game after the helmet catch, rough stretch for a pats fan lol), but they went 10-6 that year! i think one of only two teams ever to miss the offs with double digi wins, in conclusion maybe tom brady is just fundamentally lucky

they went 11-5! with Matt Cassel!! and lost the division to the Wildcat Dolphins, who went 1-15 the year prior!

lmao the truth was so outrageous i have to drop a win

he does seem to lead a charmed life...and yet remains so utterly charmless

maybe thats the secret

I wasn't at all proposing Brady as the greatest athlete ever

sure, and i wasn't really criticizing what you said, i was referring to things like this:

It's a simple question but a difficult answer.

Is @TomBrady the greatest athlete of all time? 🐐 pic.twitter.com/QFUo5lEiGZ

— The Athletic (@TheAthletic) February 6, 2021

when you include individual sport athletes like phelps or biles or usain bolt, the question becomes even more ridiculous.

yeah I almost can't hold the MAGA hat thing against him because his brain really does seem to be 90% football and 10% weird nutrition advice, he's kind of an empty vessel otherwise

literally trump was nice to him once and he was like this is my friend we are both famous

first superbowl i skipped in 25 years

VC: that tweet is crazy--surprised to see it's from The Athletic. I can only hope and assume they meant team player and just got careless with their wording.

ha, i would've thought so, but that graphic has images of tiger, biles, phelps, and serena

the article linked is just about similarities between jordan and brady's psychotic mental makeups, doesn't even mention all the other athletes

7 Rings. Congrats bro 😩 pic.twitter.com/pJe1H0V9Pi

— QuavoYRN (@QuavoStuntin) February 8, 2021

(xpost) You're right, it can't be a mistake. Even weirder is including Tiger alongside Serena and Phelps. Golf is more physically taxing than people who don't play might think, but I can't see that it's anywhere close to on par with those two sports.