nfl offseason transactions, fired coaches, general nonsense 2012

I think not enough is said about how much of an asshole T.O.'s grandmother was. It's hard to grow up into a normal human when you feel like the person raising you not only doesn't love you, but actively hates you. So I have sympathy for T.O., and would probably vote yes to the HoF, but wouldn't want to spend any time with him.

do the Eagles or Cowboys win a Super Bowl if he's not on the team?

i'm not sure anyone can definitively answer this question

I guess I can get the anti-stat brigade but if you can't measure what he did or didn't do with stats then you're basically guessing, "I don't like him so he cant be as good as his stats suggest"

do i need to invent some stats to make my case stronger?

% of locker room conversations where he got into a conflict with another player
# of press conferences where he acted out
amount of weariness he contributed to teammates who had to deal with him

it could be that he deserves to go to HOF, but it's not like a case against it has no bearing in reality. there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

^but the impact of these things ranges from basically unquantifiable to imaginary

anyway,

hey greg cossell of NFL network breaks down last year's film on christian ponder and andy dalton

http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cosell-talks-pondering-ponder-and-dalton/#more-9564

whats the story of his grandma?

it could be that he deserves to go to HOF, but it's not like a case against it has no bearing in reality. there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

not to say this really has a big bearing here but I played football in HS with some massive pricks and it didn't have any consequences on the field; this is the type of thing that sportswriters love to talk about but I really don't think T.O.'s selfishness or whatever you call it hurt his team to the degree many ppl are saying. if anything it only hurt his ability to get future contracts.

from what I remember reading about his grandmother she was an alcoholic, and iirc she was crazy overprotective - she would whip him if he so much as walked out to the front yard without his permission, and wouldn't allow him to play with other children, even in their own yard. I think his mom was a teenager herself when she had him, so the grandmother pretty much raised him the way she raised her daughter. (if memory serves)

not to say this really has a big bearing here but I played football in HS with some massive pricks and it didn't have any consequences on the field;

^you can be a massive prick and not cause dissension on a team. TO's accusations that Garcia was gay, and his questioning of McNabb's toughness both completely cleaved those teams, and it showed up on the field. Marvin Harrison may be the Somalian warlord of his block in South Philly, but he never brought it into the Indy locker room and thus the fact he is a "massive prick" is irrelevant.

exactly how did it show up on the field? did McNabb stop trying because T.O. questioned his toughness?

You moron. Dont you remember he got fucking suspended for four games after he pulled that shit? How is that beneficial to his team?

actually i think he was suspended for four and then cut. so he missed half the season because he was a shit teammate.

Look, there's what, 5 criteria for making the HoF? I don't think that a guy needs to be good in all five in order to make it in. Not only is his longevity insane but he's behind only Jerry Rice on the all-time TD and yardage lists (well, tied with Moss on TDs) I realize that stats don't tell the whole story but even if you devalued all his career stats by 15%, you've still got a slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Stop letting your judgement of his character cloud your objectivity. The HoF is not your personal shrine of "people who were good at football, that I would also like to be friends with". Suspension or no there's hardly a reason to keep TO out. There's a reason he was employed for what, fifteen years? Everyone knew about his character issues.

I mean, there's at least one convicted felon in the Hall of Fame (Michael Irvin), yet we want to keep T.O. out because he had a shitty attitude?

frogbs OTM like a baby seal

also a lot of it is the media...you know who's a little passive aggressive backbiting bitch? Matt Birk...but he's a white Harvard man, pillar of the community, fuck that guy

lol what did matt birk do?

he was just one of those guys that was constantly on local radio and in the media and was the master of "i'm not sayin' i'm just sayin'" undercutting the coaches and other players, but he's way smarter than say a T.O. and was too canny to really get caught and obviously considered an NFL "model citizen"

The HoF is not your personal shrine of "people who were good at football, that I would also like to be friends with".

^obviously you're not talking to me, if you were you didnt read my posts, or you didnt understand them. If you're a cocksucker and it undermines the team, then you suck, no matter what your INDIVIDUAL stats are. If you're a cocksucker but still can be a team player (LT, Marvin Harrison, probably half the Hall of Fame) then youre good by me. TO is in the former camp.

See, you can't just say something like that without backing it up with some kind of data; statistical or otherwise. We've heard this kind of rhetoric about guys like Barry Bonds, A-Rod, even Brett Favre for years from hack writers but rarely do we look back and say, "after he left the team, they were able to figure it all out". It's just so lazy to deem him a clubhouse cancer that was only motivated by his own personal stats when there's hardly any data to support that position. Fun to talk about, yes, but if his attitude was really undermining his own teams, why have none of them made the Super Bowl without him?

x axis = cocksucker
y axis = team player

I've always hated the idea of keeping out Moss because people dont like him (Dr. Z was always adamant that he'd never get his vote), T.O. I understand it a little more but I still think it's not right to exclude someone whose case has so much merit just because he's a tool. On the other hand, there may be a player out there who I would irrationally hate enough to keep out in spite of merit, so I can't condemn the approach entirely

also a lot of it is the media...you know who's a little passive aggressive backbiting bitch? Matt Birk...but he's a white Harvard man, pillar of the community, fuck that guy

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, July 3, 2012 12:57 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

this is otm. birk's a turd

frogbs, you completely miss the point. plus i differentiated baseball from football about twenty posts ago

"after he left the team, they were able to figure it all out".

this is hilarious

then exactly what is your point? that you want to rag on the guy for things that show up on the field in ways that are a complete mystery?

;_; and now he's tearing about ILNFL

WILL IT EVER STOP, TERRELL?

probably shouldn't get mixed up in this battle of ilnfl titans, but

a) of course he's an asshole
b) of course he's a hall of famer, albeit one who will probably have to give his own induction speech
c) 'I played football in HS with some massive pricks' good to know

the point was that "he's an asshole and he doesn't get along with some of his teammates" means close to nothing on the field

*apart, not about. ugh comedy fail

"comedy"

the point was that "he's an asshole and he doesn't get along with some of his teammates" means close to nothing on the field

― frogbs, Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Of course it does, and that's my fucking point.

The fact that he was suspended for nine games for calling out a teammate as a wimp means nothing to you is mind-blowing.

Of course it does, and that's my fucking point.

I know that's your "fucking point" but you have yet to produce any of that stuff called evidence as to why, or how. Once again; this is hack sportswriting. The same kind that rags on a guy like Ochocinco every time he does something stupid and his team loses the next week. Lucky for you the HoF voters fall for that stuff left and right but if we're going to judge what the guy did as, y'know, a football player, there's almost no way you can leave him out; you could make an argument he's the greatest WR since Jerry Rice!

You could make an argument that you're a pinhead.

how much you benching these days bill?

to be fair bill actually did produce evidence - like the nine-game suspension. for a superstar player like TO, the surest way to hurt your team is to not be on the field

how much you benching these days bill?

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I benched a house the other day. I dont know, a couple of tons?

to be fair bill actually did produce evidence - like the nine-game suspension. for a superstar player like TO, the surest way to hurt your team is to not be on the field

yes, and I mentioned that it's certainly a knock against him, but, he's had a 15-year career and he's been excellent for most of it

also maybe my memory is failing me but I thought he only got 4 games

frogbs, is there anything that particularly helps you identify with someone like T.O., i.e. someone who you feel could still make a real contribution but ends up just being a pain in the ass?

damn

also maybe my memory is failing me but I thought he only got 4 games

^suspended for 4 or 5 games, then cut

I'm not sure a personnel decision made by a team that's been terrible at handling egos and making such decisions should really disqualify him from the Hall, but it's not as if prior HoFers haven't been suspended ever

Roberto, I know you're just trying to be an asshole but I really don't like T.O. personally, but I still think keeping him out for that reason is lunacy. I'm all for keeping out borderline cases with these kind of issues but T.O. is about as slam dunk as it gets.

sports

you two are providing a doctoral seminar on why hof arguments are the absolute worst. and you're not even doing it with baseball!

dr. morgBS

don't even get me started on the baseball Hall of Fame once Barry Bonds falls off the ballot

can do

you two are providing a doctoral seminar on why hof arguments are the absolute worst. and you're not even doing it with baseball!

― call all destroyer, Thursday, July 5, 2012 3:40 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You're right, i'm done with it. Exasperating.

i really think we can work this out if everyone keeps trying

Man you can't even compare the star chamber aspect part of NFL hall of fame enshrinement to baseball's writers especially in the age of the accountant and the spreadsheet.

I'm not saying T.O. wasn't good, I just think he was a really annoying TV football personality (and he might be an ok dude if you know him) and I will guarantee there will be people using the same arguement.

T.O. didn't start this players asking this way. Deion is the one really I think kicked it up a big notch, but other than he was a mercenary that wisely avoided long term deals to give him flexibility in going where he wanted to go (which in a way I kind of admire), the guy outside his side trip to DC and after he was way past on date generally always brought it to the field and while hyping himself didn't seem to drag on his club. The guys have followed especially the WRs have often been more bluster than they were worth. I'm just thanking the football numbers that we don't have to have a real discussion about Keyshawn Johnson being a HOF member, as he was easily just as much a self centered creep. (And to be honest, I'm sure there are locker rooms all over the place filled with dudes that are just as crappy, but hey man, they don't end up on ESPN or the TV all the time for a decade being that way, so they are not my problem.)

I think making everything just about the spreadsheet and whatever stats you can cobble together from the accountant sites has taken alot of the fun about discussing baseball with people as it always turns into some discussion that is more about stocks. I'm not doubting the numbers are enlightening if you are actually a freaking scout who has to game plan but half of the people that talk sxxt about baseball stats I get the feeling really do so more from the stats itself and don't watch that much baseball. I can buy the hitting stats and some of the pitching stats, but all of those fielding stats that they tie to WAR seem to me out of kilter. Then again, I can really only speak with authority more if I see the people play, so while I can admire numbers of some players - I think people talk like this guy is 'great' and haven't seen them play much.

NFL has an advantage there, as there isn't that many games and if you play for a marquee team, you see the players play quite a bit, although to be fair, you don't see them play in isolation every play as the camera follows the ball.

People take football way too serious, it's really just a little bit more legitimate to some extents as prowrestling and the more money that goes into the game, the more like the WWF it becomes and to me T.O. is like the Shawn Michaels of the NFL or somethin'.