nfl offseason transactions, fired coaches, general nonsense 2012

Well it's also because there are football plays that don't factor into stats. TO was a great down-field blocker, for example. He was unusually tough for a WR. Stuff like that.

But also, #4 all time in touchdowns is hard to ignore.

If I have a vote I dont let Owens anywhere near Canton.

What if he wants to work at Arby's there.

"But also, #4 all time in touchdowns is hard to ignore."

Some of those numbers get flattened out by time and I think the receieving yards and receptions will. TD's will hold up for a bit, that's true, but give it a decade and he might not be that high.

Ken Anderson used to be in the top 5-10 for alot of passing stats when he retired, now he's like in the top 25-30. He also won an NFL MVP and hasn't been in the Hall of Fame finalist list since like 96 and 97.

I think T.O. is also going to have to deal with the dearth of players in the pass happy time that are going to be eligible, some of which have plenty of numbers and many much more liked by both the press and fans.

This is kind of an interesting list to check out how things have changed. All these guys are not in the Hall of Fame and have more receptions than Steve Largent, who for a while was the all time leader when he retired and when he broke the record from Don Maynard, who had held it since the early 70s.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_career.htm

Tony Gonzalez
Marvin Harrison
Chris Carter
Tim Brown
Isaac Bruce
Hines Ward
Randy Moss
Andre Reed
Derick Mason
Torry Holt
Keenan McCardell
Jimmy Smith
Reggie Wayne
Muhsin Muhammed
Irving Fryar
Rod Smith
Larry Centers

Andre Reed isn't in and doesn't look like he is going to get in any time soon and it's kind of hard to not think of that dude as one of the best of his time. When he retired, he was probably #3 all time with just Carter and Rice ahead of him.

Yeah T.O. has the numbers, but I think you can't underestimate the amount of people that think he was a total axx and will just let him rot on the vines.

Dude, TO has 156 touchdowns. The next active is Tony Gonzalez with 95, and the next active after that is Antonio Gates with 76.

Won't matter, he's still an idiot.

Dude, TO has 156 touchdowns. The next active is Tony Gonzalez with 95, and the next active after that is Antonio Gates with 76.

― polyphonic, Monday, July 2, 2012 8:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dont care.

What if he wants to work at Arby's there.

― polyphonic, Monday, July 2, 2012 6:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Hall of Fame, wiseass

It would be hard to put Marvin Harrison in just for his off the field criminality, but he never seemed to bring it to the team. So I think i would vote him in. The man should be locked up, however.

So let me get this straight - locker room diva = shouldn't be in the hall of fame, criminal = vote him in?

TO's behavior + the hugely negative impact he had on the teams he played for should figure into that calculus.

Exactly what "hugely negative impact" are you talking about here? do the Eagles or Cowboys win a Super Bowl if he's not on the team? that's ridiculous. I get that you don't like T.O.'s personality but IMO he's not even a borderline HoF case - he's a slam dunk. We have wife beaters and murderers in the league, and this is what you have a problem with? I don't think the HoF needs to be anything more than a museum that details the history of the game and its very best players.

I think not enough is said about how much of an asshole T.O.'s grandmother was. It's hard to grow up into a normal human when you feel like the person raising you not only doesn't love you, but actively hates you. So I have sympathy for T.O., and would probably vote yes to the HoF, but wouldn't want to spend any time with him.

do the Eagles or Cowboys win a Super Bowl if he's not on the team?

i'm not sure anyone can definitively answer this question

I guess I can get the anti-stat brigade but if you can't measure what he did or didn't do with stats then you're basically guessing, "I don't like him so he cant be as good as his stats suggest"

do i need to invent some stats to make my case stronger?

% of locker room conversations where he got into a conflict with another player
# of press conferences where he acted out
amount of weariness he contributed to teammates who had to deal with him

it could be that he deserves to go to HOF, but it's not like a case against it has no bearing in reality. there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

^but the impact of these things ranges from basically unquantifiable to imaginary

anyway,

hey greg cossell of NFL network breaks down last year's film on christian ponder and andy dalton

http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cosell-talks-pondering-ponder-and-dalton/#more-9564

whats the story of his grandma?

it could be that he deserves to go to HOF, but it's not like a case against it has no bearing in reality. there were actual things he did and said that inevitably must've had consequences on the field.

not to say this really has a big bearing here but I played football in HS with some massive pricks and it didn't have any consequences on the field; this is the type of thing that sportswriters love to talk about but I really don't think T.O.'s selfishness or whatever you call it hurt his team to the degree many ppl are saying. if anything it only hurt his ability to get future contracts.

from what I remember reading about his grandmother she was an alcoholic, and iirc she was crazy overprotective - she would whip him if he so much as walked out to the front yard without his permission, and wouldn't allow him to play with other children, even in their own yard. I think his mom was a teenager herself when she had him, so the grandmother pretty much raised him the way she raised her daughter. (if memory serves)

not to say this really has a big bearing here but I played football in HS with some massive pricks and it didn't have any consequences on the field;

^you can be a massive prick and not cause dissension on a team. TO's accusations that Garcia was gay, and his questioning of McNabb's toughness both completely cleaved those teams, and it showed up on the field. Marvin Harrison may be the Somalian warlord of his block in South Philly, but he never brought it into the Indy locker room and thus the fact he is a "massive prick" is irrelevant.

exactly how did it show up on the field? did McNabb stop trying because T.O. questioned his toughness?

You moron. Dont you remember he got fucking suspended for four games after he pulled that shit? How is that beneficial to his team?

actually i think he was suspended for four and then cut. so he missed half the season because he was a shit teammate.

Look, there's what, 5 criteria for making the HoF? I don't think that a guy needs to be good in all five in order to make it in. Not only is his longevity insane but he's behind only Jerry Rice on the all-time TD and yardage lists (well, tied with Moss on TDs) I realize that stats don't tell the whole story but even if you devalued all his career stats by 15%, you've still got a slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Stop letting your judgement of his character cloud your objectivity. The HoF is not your personal shrine of "people who were good at football, that I would also like to be friends with". Suspension or no there's hardly a reason to keep TO out. There's a reason he was employed for what, fifteen years? Everyone knew about his character issues.

I mean, there's at least one convicted felon in the Hall of Fame (Michael Irvin), yet we want to keep T.O. out because he had a shitty attitude?

frogbs OTM like a baby seal

also a lot of it is the media...you know who's a little passive aggressive backbiting bitch? Matt Birk...but he's a white Harvard man, pillar of the community, fuck that guy

lol what did matt birk do?

he was just one of those guys that was constantly on local radio and in the media and was the master of "i'm not sayin' i'm just sayin'" undercutting the coaches and other players, but he's way smarter than say a T.O. and was too canny to really get caught and obviously considered an NFL "model citizen"

The HoF is not your personal shrine of "people who were good at football, that I would also like to be friends with".

^obviously you're not talking to me, if you were you didnt read my posts, or you didnt understand them. If you're a cocksucker and it undermines the team, then you suck, no matter what your INDIVIDUAL stats are. If you're a cocksucker but still can be a team player (LT, Marvin Harrison, probably half the Hall of Fame) then youre good by me. TO is in the former camp.

See, you can't just say something like that without backing it up with some kind of data; statistical or otherwise. We've heard this kind of rhetoric about guys like Barry Bonds, A-Rod, even Brett Favre for years from hack writers but rarely do we look back and say, "after he left the team, they were able to figure it all out". It's just so lazy to deem him a clubhouse cancer that was only motivated by his own personal stats when there's hardly any data to support that position. Fun to talk about, yes, but if his attitude was really undermining his own teams, why have none of them made the Super Bowl without him?

x axis = cocksucker
y axis = team player

I've always hated the idea of keeping out Moss because people dont like him (Dr. Z was always adamant that he'd never get his vote), T.O. I understand it a little more but I still think it's not right to exclude someone whose case has so much merit just because he's a tool. On the other hand, there may be a player out there who I would irrationally hate enough to keep out in spite of merit, so I can't condemn the approach entirely

also a lot of it is the media...you know who's a little passive aggressive backbiting bitch? Matt Birk...but he's a white Harvard man, pillar of the community, fuck that guy

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, July 3, 2012 12:57 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

this is otm. birk's a turd

frogbs, you completely miss the point. plus i differentiated baseball from football about twenty posts ago

"after he left the team, they were able to figure it all out".

this is hilarious

then exactly what is your point? that you want to rag on the guy for things that show up on the field in ways that are a complete mystery?

;_; and now he's tearing about ILNFL

WILL IT EVER STOP, TERRELL?

probably shouldn't get mixed up in this battle of ilnfl titans, but

a) of course he's an asshole
b) of course he's a hall of famer, albeit one who will probably have to give his own induction speech
c) 'I played football in HS with some massive pricks' good to know

the point was that "he's an asshole and he doesn't get along with some of his teammates" means close to nothing on the field

*apart, not about. ugh comedy fail

"comedy"

the point was that "he's an asshole and he doesn't get along with some of his teammates" means close to nothing on the field

― frogbs, Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Of course it does, and that's my fucking point.

The fact that he was suspended for nine games for calling out a teammate as a wimp means nothing to you is mind-blowing.

Of course it does, and that's my fucking point.

I know that's your "fucking point" but you have yet to produce any of that stuff called evidence as to why, or how. Once again; this is hack sportswriting. The same kind that rags on a guy like Ochocinco every time he does something stupid and his team loses the next week. Lucky for you the HoF voters fall for that stuff left and right but if we're going to judge what the guy did as, y'know, a football player, there's almost no way you can leave him out; you could make an argument he's the greatest WR since Jerry Rice!

You could make an argument that you're a pinhead.

how much you benching these days bill?

to be fair bill actually did produce evidence - like the nine-game suspension. for a superstar player like TO, the surest way to hurt your team is to not be on the field

how much you benching these days bill?

― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I benched a house the other day. I dont know, a couple of tons?

to be fair bill actually did produce evidence - like the nine-game suspension. for a superstar player like TO, the surest way to hurt your team is to not be on the field

yes, and I mentioned that it's certainly a knock against him, but, he's had a 15-year career and he's been excellent for most of it

also maybe my memory is failing me but I thought he only got 4 games

frogbs, is there anything that particularly helps you identify with someone like T.O., i.e. someone who you feel could still make a real contribution but ends up just being a pain in the ass?

damn