nfl offseason transactions, fired coaches, general nonsense 2012

nah -- the whole thing was to get publicity by signing him, then get publicity by cutting him

seems that way

Maybe I'm a sucker but I feel bad for him. I remember seeing the story ESPN did on him years ago where they talked to his grandmother, I got a real sense that he was kinda, I dunno, broken somehow.

The NFL is filled up with damaged goods including T.O. but it says something when you are too big a pain in the ass to be kept around the Bengals locker room. The guy had tremendous abilities and it's hard to argue with the results, but you got to temper it with all the B.S. he caused around the clubs.

I don't care where T.O. is at on the all time lists, if I had a hall of fame vote, fxxx that guy, I would NEVER vote for him.

TO's seems like that jerk in your office that can do his job, even somewhat well, but he is such a douchebag, that just having to work with the dude just a total pain. I hate having to deal with those kind of people, so I am fine reveling in schadenfreude when ultimately their being an ass comes back on them.

People liked Jerry Rice and would give him a job a few years after he could really be play that well, with T.O., you can hear GM's going 'fxxx that guy'.

So, what about Randy Moss going into the HoF? Would you have the same argument against him?

Not trolling, just trying to figure out how it all fits together.

Moss definitely went through periods where he didn't respect the game on the field itself, but he wasn't nearly as annoying a wrestling character as TO off the field. I'd say Moss was a totally unique talent when he first came into a league (similar to LT in that way and god how that story has gone is way more sad and pathetic).

Really to be straight, you can't really vote for either you got this kind of beef.

Ironic thing is that Marvin Harrison might be/could be/is a worse human being than either one.

Morality and football really don't fit together very well.

And by LT, I mean the original, Lawrence Taylor and not Ladianian Tomlinson.

that story was really sad

It's really bizarre to me that there will be voters who don't vote for TO or Moss on, um, moral grounds (I guess? More like just personal dislike dressed up as morality as if the NFL wasn't lousy with self centered assholes) but won't bat an eye voting for harrison or ray lewis

speaking of voters, this is inexcusable

At a fundraiser late last year with New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) and Woody Johnson, owner of the New York Jets, Romney offered a "Go Jets!" cheer from the podium — a sports faux pas for a governor from the state home to the rival New England Patriots.

lol

obama was super-buddies with dan rooney and the steelers in 2008, but i don't think he went so far as to explicitly poop on the bears

obama has never trash talked the bears. he did ask the packers after they won the SB and visited the white house to trade rodgers to chicago, but that's about it

i guess obama can afford to like the steelers, baltimore will vote for him 90-10 anyway

can we implement a plan like this for the 2012 swing states?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCmBPDalcTQ

i actually think it's kind of a big deal that rooney (who let's face it was rewarded with the largely honorary office of ambassador to darramac) backed obama the way he did. he's a super-rich grandee who needn't have done so.

western pennsylvanians are racist as fuck -- except for, you know, hines ward and jerome bettis etc. -- and to see the basically most hallowed institution in western pa embrace obama must have counted for something in a swing-ish state.

a sports faux pas for a governor from the state home to the rival New England Patriots.

^what does Romney care? He has absolutely no chance of winning Massachusets

New Hampshire, on the other hand...

I don't care where T.O. is at on the all time lists, if I had a hall of fame vote, fxxx that guy, I would NEVER vote for him.

I don't understand this. Maybe he's tough to like, but it's not like he's breaking the law or cheating or anything; for all the talk about how he's a "me-first" guy and a bad teammate, he still played the Super Bowl on one leg...

lol ambassador to darramac

TO is annoying as hell and he played for the Cowboys and Niners, hence he is just wrong.

u wouldn't feel that way if he'd made a late-career cameo on your hapless team, earlnash! (is your team the bengals? i can never remember.)

There's a lot of great, decent mannered players that I like more than TO or Randy. But the NFL isn't a charm school.

I know it's sacrilege in some circles but frankly I can't stand Jerry Rice's personality. Sure, he's amazing player to watch and I have no problem with him being in the HOF. But when he gets held up as an example to others of how to be, it kinda leaves me cold. I haven't seen anything that tells me he's any less shallow than Randy or TO, as far as his motivations go. I think he's just learned how to give the *appearance* of being a nice guy, because he's smart enough to know how far it goes with fans and the media.

I dunno where I'm going with that. And I know that hearts and minds is a big part of football because there's no game without an audience. But the game is what got us in the seats. Pure play has to count for something. Maybe not everything.

TO's worse for playing for the Bengals. Dude fits in that screwed up club and even they didn't have much care for cutting him loose and Mike Brown is the kind of dude that wades through fountains for quarters.

I don't doubt TO was good, he really was, but the dude encapulates everything I freaking hate about modern football and I feel no sorrow at all that the dude is now having to pay the piper now. He got more breaks than 99% of the people in the world ever get and he treated the world like an ashtray.

As I said, you get into some really weird morality plays in NFL fandom. It's kind of hard to respect some of these dudes at all, even if they did respect the game on the field. But as an NFL pro-wrestling personality figure, I think TO is f-in trash, even if he was a very effective wideout and obviously he was.

otm; t.o. was not a cool dude

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying he was a cool dude, just taking exception with the notion that it should have anything to do with the hall of fame.

Vegemite otm about jerry rice, if he hit someone in his car late at night he would totally keep driving

Also I take exception with pp lumping randy in with TO, they are very different people

TO was a bad teammate. He threw Garcia and McNabb totally under the bus, and football's a team game. Keep that shit private. I would never vote for him for the Hall.

Moss is a little different. He had some mad skills for a while, but his ultimate sin was a tendency to dog it and quit. Everything equal, I'd rather have Moss than TO though.

TO was a bad teammate. He threw Garcia and McNabb totally under the bus, and football's a team game. Keep that shit private. I would never vote for him for the Hall.

i literally don't understand you guys and your "he's mean I wouldn't vote for him!" "he's a bad teammate, I wouldn't vote for him!", like i would guess that there are no less than 200 complete piece of shit human beings in the hall of fame already.

it's not being an eagle scout.

look at TO's stats and tell me on what basis he should be snubbed.

Well the guy also at times had aligator arms and tons of drops as they had to feed TO or the mouth would roar.

The Eagles went to the NFC Championship game four times without him, so how much more did he add?

How many big wins did Dallas really get with T.O.?

SF was heading down for other reasons, but they let him walk in the prime of his career.

I don't doubt the stats, but give it a few years and his numbers won't look as outragous. I just think he is one of those cases where he was a drag kind of evens that out some and the guy was a total drag. He has the fame, but he is just not that admirable a football player even with the stat sheet. The NBA has players like that who got the numbers and even were on good teams, but ultimately they do things with their game or how they handle themselves that sabotage moving to that next level.

Randy Moss was something new, there hadn't been a guy that tall that could jump like that and also have the speed playing wide out. At points, he couldn't be covered in his career and he kind of changed the mold for WR.

I don't even think of Owens like Harrison or say Chris Carter or say even Larry Fitzgerald. Those dudes have pass catching skills that I think were at a different level. If they could get their hands on the ball, it might be a circus but the ball is going to get caught. T.O. had the athleticism to make yards after the catch and the guy was really burly for his speed, so he was pretty hard to cover for most.

just finished watching the full season of dallas hard knocks; it's really really sad to see how far he fell
pac man comes off as a total disaster tho

i literally don't understand you guys and your "he's mean I wouldn't vote for him!" "he's a bad teammate, I wouldn't vote for him!", like i would guess that there are no less than 200 complete piece of shit human beings in the hall of fame already

^its a team game. It's not a coincidence TO didnt win shit.

You can be a complete piece of shit human being and be a team player, and not some douche who complained when the going got rough. Owens was a pussy. Compare Owens to Lawrence Taylor or Ray Lewis. Two guys that were "bad guys" (though i would argue that point about Lewis) that are the epitome of Hall of Fame.

Lawrence may have been troubled off the field but I don't remember anyone complaining about him as a football player. The way Owens treated Garcia and McNabb... I don't think Taylor or Lewis ever did anything like that.

But still I would vote for Owens, and Moss, and Lewis without any hesitation.

Lawrence may have been troubled off the field but I don't remember anyone complaining about him as a football player. The way Owens treated Garcia and McNabb... I don't think Taylor or Lewis ever did anything like that.

― polyphonic, Monday, July 2, 2012 12:48 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Neither guy did. In fact, Lewis was vehement in his support of Flacco last year when he faced some pretty serious criticism. Also stood up for the kicker when he blew the playoff game. Ultimate team guy. Owens is the complete opposite.

If Terrel Owens makes the HOF and Cris Carter doesnt, then this world is fucked.

i love carter and he should be in.

but carter was behind-the-scenes a real diva and definitely did undercut people....also a much bigger asshole at times than moss was, just more savvy about the media.

he went through a pretty big change once he got religion. I remember an ESPN profile on him where he talked about his dickishness.

not that that excuses anything but I think he's more self-aware of how he used to be vs how he is now

carter was behind-the-scenes a real diva

^youre proving my point with "behind the scenes". Owens' stupidity, and it seems like true stupidity-namely the man seems to have literally half of a brain-was totally out in the open.

i think to truly hate TO he has to have played for a team you love.

otm. i'm not saying this is 100% so, but if you have the most physically gifted athlete in history, but his personality is so toxic that it dismantles the team he plays on, what exactly does it mean to say he's a HOF player? is HOF just quantifying particular statistics + physical ability?

if so, why vote at all on the individual players? just vote on what statistics should qualify a particular position (# of stats, receptions, yards, completed passes, won games, whatever) and whoever meets those reqs gets in. that we vote on particular players suggests that there is more to the calculus, and TO's behavior + the hugely negative impact he had on the teams he played for should figure into that calculus.

Well it's also because there are football plays that don't factor into stats. TO was a great down-field blocker, for example. He was unusually tough for a WR. Stuff like that.

But also, #4 all time in touchdowns is hard to ignore.

If I have a vote I dont let Owens anywhere near Canton.

What if he wants to work at Arby's there.

"But also, #4 all time in touchdowns is hard to ignore."

Some of those numbers get flattened out by time and I think the receieving yards and receptions will. TD's will hold up for a bit, that's true, but give it a decade and he might not be that high.

Ken Anderson used to be in the top 5-10 for alot of passing stats when he retired, now he's like in the top 25-30. He also won an NFL MVP and hasn't been in the Hall of Fame finalist list since like 96 and 97.

I think T.O. is also going to have to deal with the dearth of players in the pass happy time that are going to be eligible, some of which have plenty of numbers and many much more liked by both the press and fans.

This is kind of an interesting list to check out how things have changed. All these guys are not in the Hall of Fame and have more receptions than Steve Largent, who for a while was the all time leader when he retired and when he broke the record from Don Maynard, who had held it since the early 70s.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_career.htm

Tony Gonzalez
Marvin Harrison
Chris Carter
Tim Brown
Isaac Bruce
Hines Ward
Randy Moss
Andre Reed
Derick Mason
Torry Holt
Keenan McCardell
Jimmy Smith
Reggie Wayne
Muhsin Muhammed
Irving Fryar
Rod Smith
Larry Centers

Andre Reed isn't in and doesn't look like he is going to get in any time soon and it's kind of hard to not think of that dude as one of the best of his time. When he retired, he was probably #3 all time with just Carter and Rice ahead of him.

Yeah T.O. has the numbers, but I think you can't underestimate the amount of people that think he was a total axx and will just let him rot on the vines.

Dude, TO has 156 touchdowns. The next active is Tony Gonzalez with 95, and the next active after that is Antonio Gates with 76.

Won't matter, he's still an idiot.

Dude, TO has 156 touchdowns. The next active is Tony Gonzalez with 95, and the next active after that is Antonio Gates with 76.

― polyphonic, Monday, July 2, 2012 8:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dont care.

What if he wants to work at Arby's there.

― polyphonic, Monday, July 2, 2012 6:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Hall of Fame, wiseass

It would be hard to put Marvin Harrison in just for his off the field criminality, but he never seemed to bring it to the team. So I think i would vote him in. The man should be locked up, however.

So let me get this straight - locker room diva = shouldn't be in the hall of fame, criminal = vote him in?

TO's behavior + the hugely negative impact he had on the teams he played for should figure into that calculus.

Exactly what "hugely negative impact" are you talking about here? do the Eagles or Cowboys win a Super Bowl if he's not on the team? that's ridiculous. I get that you don't like T.O.'s personality but IMO he's not even a borderline HoF case - he's a slam dunk. We have wife beaters and murderers in the league, and this is what you have a problem with? I don't think the HoF needs to be anything more than a museum that details the history of the game and its very best players.