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tanking has no reward for players either

another problem is that bad teams just lose a lot in basketball - I don't know if the Pistons or Wiz are actively trying to tank this year, they're just bad

tanking has the reward of not having to try your hardest

the issue isn’t tanking in general as that has largely been rectified. the issue is that sports, in general, have been overtaken by the “asset” worldview. thus in the NBA there are going to be 5 or 6 teams every season — including unexpected ones like those final blazers dame years — who get to a point where they realize they can’t make the playoffs and then enter asset protection + cultivation mode, regardless of what the expense may be in terms of competitiveness, winning etc. teams didn’t think like this until the last decade or so — previous to that you put your guys out there and tried to win and then the season ended.

in a larger sense it’s an issue of the self vs the group. by which i mean that the ppl who run the wizards, jazz, blazers, thunder etc would almost certainly agree that the kind of noncompetitive basketball we’re seeing now is bad for the league overall. but they’d also argue that it’s not bad for the teams individually, bcuz it is allowing them to do xyz things that they think are going benefit their franchise in the long term

the crux of the problem ultimately is that both sides of the argument have merit, but we are way too far down the rabbit hole to expect owners/GMs to prioritize their own teams less in favor of the greater good. so i think the league could enact measures like the one k3v mentioned that completely reorient the season around the idea of not tanking, but it feels like a hacker kinda thing where teams will always be two steps ahead in figuring out loopholes and circumnavigation. the issue is the mentality derived from hedge funds, moneyball that is pervasive across all leagues (and corporations and industries and…)

i also think there is another pervasive issue that either stems from the NBA or is especially endemic to the NBA, and that’s the idea that any season that doesn’t end in a title is a failure, teams only exist to win rings, all legacies are defined by rings etc. and of course we want that & believe that to be true to a certain extent bcuz it’s fun and makes for operatic drama on the court but there is a balance between the pursuit of championships and existing for the sake of entertainment that i think the league is having a particularly hard time figuring out, but which is more of like a larger sociocultural issue regarding fans thinking like they’re GMs and not fans

tanking has existed for a long time, the celtics tanked to get tim duncan and kevin durant (greg oden), the spurs to their credit tanked harder to get tim duncan, but its def more perfected these days, i think theres also a perception element where fans know whats up due to the massive amount of info available, where in years past youd crack open your local paper and its prob not telling you that tonights opponent has their starters out with fake injuries in order to get a slightly better slot in the draft

a larger sociocultural issue regarding fans thinking like they’re GMs and not fans

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Saturday, April 6, 2024 1:19 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the prosumer era gotta love it lol, i think its kinda fine for basketball but where seams start showing is anything artistic like these youtube videos that explain why movies are good due to following the rules of structure, you see the effects with people demanding that a tv show have "stakes", this is not actually how to enjoy watching things its just pretending youre an insider who knows whats up, its funny too cause amongst informed fans formula used to be considered a bad thing but todays experts get mad if you dont give it to them they say youre doing it wrong

there is a basic structural aspect of how we talk about sports now where the needs/desires of the franchise are at odds w/ the needs/desires of the fans and commentators are not able to relieve this tension i.e. how all discussion about the t wolves this year is a tug of war between the worldview of the fan (we haven’t been good in 20 years and now we’re awesome!) and the worldview of the front office (when do we need to start dumping salary?). to the point where prominent NBA podcasters have basically been issuing apologies to wolves fans at the outset of discussions about the wolves, essentially bcuz of how much the professional commentator worldview aligns w/ the world view of the professional front office person (who are spending all day texting with each other thus reinforcing said worldview)

the prosumer era gotta love it lol, i think its kinda fine for basketball but where seams start showing is anything artistic like these youtube videos that explain why movies are good due to following the rules of structure, you see the effects with people demanding that a tv show have "stakes", this is not actually how to enjoy watching things its just pretending youre an insider who knows whats up, its funny too cause amongst informed fans formula used to be considered a bad thing but todays experts get mad if you dont give it to them they say youre doing it wrong

― lag∞n, Saturday, April 6, 2024 1:36 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

beyonce releasing a white paper before her album comes out lol

yeah some very otm posts it’s a strange world we live in these days

i think some kind of marriage between america-style collective corporate interest (lux tax, salary caps, access to incoming players via draft with weight given towards shittiness) and euro soccer practices (promotion/relegation, multiple tournaments in and between countries, developmental academies and player contract sales as revenue generator) could address a lot of these issues.

promotion/relegation is amazing but the free market stuff that comes with it is the worst you soccer has like 15 competitive teams across the top five leagues

idk how europeans put up with that shit f1 is the same way

i think theres some prob irreconcilable differences between the systems like once you have promotion/relegation how do you do a draft, if only the top league has access to it its a rich get richer scenario, you put the second league in then what about the third league, maybe theres only two leagues idk now your best young players are in the second league when youd really prefer to have them in primetime, then you have to pay your second league star but cant afford it so you sell him up to the first league that just pretty much sucks its not good, maybe you do some revenue sharing/salary cap thing where all teams in both leagues have the same money to spend now a bunch of the best guys are in the second league, i think a promotion/relegation system only really works if players are purely just moved for money like in soccer, i know theyve tried to put some abstract salary cap stuff in there but the same teams are just good every year

in european soccer so much of the fan behavior, the expectations of the fans, what makes them happy etc and how that effects team behavior is rooted in how small those countries are. and bcuz of that there is so much about those leagues that we can’t replicate in america bcuz we are 50x the size or whatever. like, ppl in luton and burnley england are overjoyed when their teams are able to just maintain premier league status bcuz they are like… a farm town in rural england. the teams aren’t (or weren’t until recently in some cases) owned by billionaires. we have no equivalent… like charlotte or salt lake or indianapolis are considered NBA backwaters but would be the second biggest cities in england. regardless of what salary caps do at the high end, there’s still a lot more money being poured into the worst NBA (or NFL or MLB) teams than the worst premier league teams, and a lot that just derives back to like the average GDP of the american sports city vs that of england, italy spain etc. but obv salary caps create artificial competition to a large extent, the pacers would have a hard time competing with the lakers celtics etc if spending was unfettered. but we have more billionaires in america to buy up these teams and start spending if they want to (i.e. ishbia). the soccer teams have to turn to foreign money if they want any hope

there also teams in england like west ham, crystal palace etc that are just in london but don’t have the financial ability to compete with the better teams in london or manchester and there is nothing really diff about those fans vs that of chelsea except choosing a team that prob can’t ever win & still being cool with it. that dynamic is a bit harder to explain

ultimately i don’t think the idea of parity — that every team *can* win a title — as derived from salary caps & luxury taxes is ever being stripped out of american sports or american sports fandom

its better, if you gave those euros a lil taste of it they wouldnt be going back, burnley fc dynasty is on the table baby

they should just have a eurowide super premiere league thats fed by all the top leagues tho, having the best players spread across multiple leagues is lame, those guys should be facing off every week in a battle of wills

thats p much what the champions league is tho

thats a tournament

real madrid and man city should be playing each other twice a year who could complain

they already often do in champions league!

sometimes they play each other every year yeah

well the big teams *did* band together to do that but then their fans responded by doing stuff like breaking into the stadium and lighting things on fire. another difference between english and american fans

that was to replace the champions league

basically a champions league where the current big teams got guaranteed invites every year which is the part the fans didnt like, what im proposing is a league not a tourney and it has promotion/relegation from big the national leagues

so it supersedes the premiere league la liga etc

yeah but i think people rightly saw it as putting the sport on a track towards what you describe. english soccer fans weren’t rioting bcuz they were protective of the champions league it was bcuz they thought the super league was a death sentence for the concept of the sport being based around leagues in individual countries

if the leaders of european soccer could make decisions w/o any repercussions from public opinion i think they would love to do what you are proposing

as a fan of nba hoops, my interest in the structure and politics of european soccer extends exactly as far as my interest in soil conservation efforts in Lithuania.

jordan making up a guy to agree with soccer owners

making up soccer owners to agree with a guy? making up what people were mad at? idk something like that

wait idk what you’re saying… that the idea of the rioter is a strawman? there were actual protests in england that basically killed the super league there and across europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Old_Trafford_protests

i’m speculating on their motives i guess but man u misses the champions league all the time their fans should’ve been ecstatic to be granted a yearly free pass into the most prestigious european tournament. what they were reacting against was something more existential to the nature of soccer i think that’s an entirely fair and accurate thing to say

is that what you said

i think people rightly saw it as putting the sport on a track towards what you describe. english soccer fans weren’t rioting bcuz they were protective of the champions league it was bcuz they thought the super league was a death sentence for the concept of the sport being based around leagues in individual countries

"a death sentence for the concept of the sport being based around leagues in individual countries" and "something more existential to the nature of soccer" are not synonymous statements, and in this case the first one doesnt really make sense since it was an international competition anyway

furthermore the free pass was exactly the crux of the issue it was a powerplay by the top teams, rather than having to compete on a level playing field in the context of a unbiased league the top teams just wanted to own the competition, which very much does represent an existential threat to how the game is organized

whereas my model is just another layer on the already existing unbiased league system, it doesnt offer the top teams the power they want, they still have to go out there and win just like everyone else

which is not to say that soccers fans wouldnt hate it, im sure they would, but i dont care its a good idea, its for the good of the game and they have to do it

ok maybe our wires are crossed here im not talking about your idea if that’s what you think im referring to as an “existential threat.” i’m talking about the actual super league that was formed and then dissolved

"a death sentence for the concept of the sport being based around leagues in individual countries" and "something more existential to the nature of soccer" are not synonymous statements

if the leaders of european soccer could make decisions w/o any repercussions from public opinion i think they would love to do what you are proposing

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Saturday, April 6, 2024 4:06 PM (fifty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ok maybe our wires are crossed here im not talking about your idea if that’s what you think im referring to as an “existential threat.”

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Saturday, April 6, 2024 4:52 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

we know what the owners love

Embiid 30/12 in 23 minutes.

sixers 3-0 since his return

seems like a valuable guy. but is he the MOST valuable…

Domantas Sabonis' all-important double-double streak has ended with an 8-point, 13-rebound, 5-assist performance in the loss to OKC.

— Nate Duncan (@NateDuncanNBA) April 10, 2024

With that 54th win, Chris Finch has won more games in 1 season than 10 Wolves coaches did in their whole tenure 🐺

— Jimmy Knutson (@JimmyKnutson) April 8, 2024

celtics first team to not shoot a free throw in a game

bucks shot 2! 2 fts whole game

refs are booking their vacations lol

two records last night:

-celtics 0 FTA for a full game (apparently the bucks only had 2fta as well)

- Warriors highest 3P% for a game with minimum 40 attempts (26/41 for 63.4%)
(dray klay steph all hit at least 5 3s for the first time in like 8 years)