2023/24 NBA REGULAR SEASON THREAD "THANKING FOR WEMBANYAMA"

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interesting, this is def not a he has promised to resign package, tho i do like quickley

Raptors are also sending Malachi Flynn and Precious Achiuwa to the Knicks in the OG Anunoby-RJ Barrett-Immanuel Quickley trade, sources said. https://t.co/YC7yWNw1cr

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) December 30, 2023

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:37 (two years ago)

weird trade. no first-round picks involved.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:38 (two years ago)

achiuwa is a nice pickup for the knicks considering their current center injury sitch

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:38 (two years ago)

it’s a let’s swap mildly disappointing guys trade

call all destroyer, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:39 (two years ago)

barrett is a long time disappointment og is only a disappointment from the time when people started thinking he was gonna be an allstar but to get to that point was big success

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:42 (two years ago)

swapping mildly disappointing guys is good praxis

ciderpress, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:45 (two years ago)

og def an upgrade over rj, better fit next to randle and brunson. much more consistent overall

kissinger on my list (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:46 (two years ago)

pascal has to be on the move next, they still have the big wing logjam

kissinger on my list (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:46 (two years ago)

i like og on the knicks i think he fits good trade for them idk about the future tho obvs they need to resign him but its gonna take a too big contract, better than paying barrett tho, and they didnt want to pay quickley for whatever reason

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:46 (two years ago)

sad for the raps that theyve been demanding a superstar haul for og up til the moment they traded him for a very not superstar haul, their unwillingness to make trades last year really hurt them, seems like they just dont want to tank so they went the guys over picks route, but its hard to get full value in the form of guys, they prob shouldve gone for the short tank model where you trade your guys for picks are bad for a year or two to get more picks then you trade picks for guys to get good again, tho tbf quickly does still have upside maybe they really like him

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:51 (two years ago)

admittedly i haven’t been locked in on the secondary guys in this trade but the raptors taking on rj barrett’s money for multiple seasons does not exactly resonate as a great idea

call all destroyer, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:53 (two years ago)

oh no kevin o’killian hayes loves this trade for the knicks

kissinger on my list (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:55 (two years ago)

haha

feel like barrett even if he sucks is a guy who can always be traded just cause hes the most sought after type of guy a big wing with basketball skills

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:56 (two years ago)

i only like it from toronto's perspective as a hometown kid coming back which is heartwarmingly inefficient in rj's case

polyamerie "it's more than this 1 thing" (m bison), Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:57 (two years ago)

quickley is gonna be an excellent running mate for barnes, complements him perfectly

kissinger on my list (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 December 2023 17:58 (two years ago)

knicks are interesting theyre a well constructed team except that none of their guys are quite good enough

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 18:33 (two years ago)

which tbf makes them the best knicks team in a couple of decades

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 30 December 2023 18:36 (two years ago)

a classic second round team except that now there are so many good teams even thats going to be difficult, but still theyre tough scrappy and so forth, a team new york can root for, why not, get amped up talk to hood spiderman

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 18:37 (two years ago)

Not sure what the point of this was for the Raptors other than RJ Barrett being a Canadian guy

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 30 December 2023 18:54 (two years ago)

quickley is good, if they trade siakam too hell be putting up numbers, and hes a good defender, def a guy who is poised to break out so to speak

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:03 (two years ago)

one of those things where people are gonna be like wait quickley is averaging 23 on 45/37/87 even tho it was pretty easily to extrapolate from his current play, age etc

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:07 (two years ago)

kinda disappointed that my pacers didnt make a play for og

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:08 (two years ago)

Quickley is nice but he's on an expiring deal. I don't think he's going to fall in love with playing in Toronto while they're tanking.

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:14 (two years ago)

they can pay him tho

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:27 (two years ago)

Pistons play raps tonight who won’t have a few guys

infinite wiggles (Spottie), Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:29 (two years ago)

lets go pistons

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 19:38 (two years ago)

was very interested in the trade grades for this one:

New York Knicks: A-

This is an interesting trade for many reasons, not least the Knicks playing against their history by prioritizing a role player who's effective at both ends of the court over bigger names potentially available for trade.

Too often throughout New York's history of underperforming its market, the Knicks have gone after All-Stars just as they're about to hit the decline phase of their career, from Bob McAdoo to Amar'e Stoudemire. Having peaked at 17.1 PPG, Anunoby is both not that kind of star and, at age 26, just reaching his NBA peak.

Anunoby gives the Knicks the ace perimeter defender they've lacked in the Tom Thibodeau era. An All-Defensive second team pick a year ago, Anunoby was frankly still probably underrated at that end of the court after leading the league in steals per game. I had him on my first team.

Offensively, New York is giving up a lot of shot creation in this deal. Barrett (27%) and Quickley (24%) were third and fourth on the team in usage, respectively, behind leading scorers Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle. Only once in his career has Anunoby's usage rate been higher than league average (20%), and it's down a bit to 18% this season as Toronto has shifted more of its offense to ascending star Scottie Barnes.

In terms of the starting lineup, that's surely not a bad thing. Barrett has never scored with anything approaching league-average efficiency. This season's .536 true shooting percentage, a career high, still ranks 52nd of the 57 NBA regulars who have a usage rate of 25% or higher this season. A 34% career 3-point shooter (33% this season), Barrett did little to space the court for Brunson and Randle. Opponents will have to give more respect to Anunoby, who's at 37.4% this season and 37.5% for his career.

The real question is how this trade affects the Knicks' strong bench lineups. For the third consecutive year, Quickley has the best on-court net rating among New York full-season regulars, per NBA Advanced Stats. (And, last year, when Quickley was bested by trade deadline pickup Josh Hart, Hart too was part of the Knicks' second unit.)

To some degree, that says less about Quickley vis-à-vis New York's starters -- particularly Brunson -- and more about how the Knicks were able to beat up on weaker opposing benches. To maintain that same success, Thibodeau will probably have to change his approach on staggering the minutes of Brunson and Randle to mix them in with the reserves.

Brunson and Randle have played 986 minutes together, per NBA Advanced Stats, accounting for about 90% of their total playing time this season. For the most part, they've played separately only due to foul trouble. With two of New York's other best shot creators from the second unit promoted to the starting five (Donte DiVincenzo and Isaiah Hartenstein, the latter due to Mitchell Robinson's injury) and Quickley gone, the Knicks would be wise to keep one of their leading scorers on the court at all times.

It would be a nice bonus if New York got significant contributions from either Achiuwa or Flynn, making them more than throw-ins to this trade. There's an opportunity for Achiuwa to play at center with the Knicks losing both Robinson for the long-term and backup Jericho Sims (ankle sprain) in the short term, which has left New York down to Thibodeau security blanket Taj Gibson behind Hartenstein. New York could also use Achiuwa as a power forward in bigger lineups that shift Hart to his natural position on the wing.

Flynn was only adequate as Toronto's backup point guard this season after Fred VanVleet's departure. A plus shooter in college, he's never hit better than league average from the NBA line, limiting his value as an undersized defender. Similar players have thrived at times in Thibodeau's pick-and-roll-heavy offense, but the Knicks' coach may well prefer to use better defender Miles McBride as Quickley's replacement at point guard.

Just how well Thibodeau can prop up second units without Quickley will determine how much upgrading the starting lineup with Anunoby helps New York this season. A small upgrade could make a big impact. Having gone 5-5 since Robinson's injury, the Knicks have dropped a half-game back of the Cleveland Cavaliers for the last guaranteed playoff spot in the East.

At the same time, New York is just two games back of the fourth seed and home-court advantage in the first round. Although a deeper playoff run than last year's loss to the Miami Heat in the conference semifinals appears unlikely, the Knicks have the ability to win a playoff series for a second straight season, something they haven't done since the year 2000.

The best part of this deal for New York is the way it maintains future flexibility. The Knicks didn't dip into their stockpile of additional first-round picks, giving up only the Detroit second-round pick (likely to be Nos. 31-33) they nabbed in a draft-night trade down that landed Quentin Grimes as well. Notably, New York didn't have to give up the contract of Evan Fournier, maintaining the possibility of using him as expiring salary in a trade through next season (if the Knicks exercise their team option).

Given those factors, New York hasn't exactly punted on adding a star down the road by making this trade. Assuming the Knicks can sign Anunoby to a contract extension -- completing this trade Saturday would make him eligible for a four-year deal on June 30, the last day extensions are possible, ESPN's Bobby Marks notes -- or re-sign him as an unrestricted free agent, he will likely be more attractive to other teams as the centerpiece of a return than Barrett.

As a result, I think this was a deal New York couldn't pass on. The Knicks will surely miss Quickley, but his trade value was at its highest leading up to this year's trade deadline. Having failed to agree to a contract extension before the October deadline for players in the last season of their rookie contracts, Quickley will command a massive raise on his current bargain $4.2 million salary as a restricted free agent next summer.

If they can replace Quickley's production, it's possible New York could improve both the rest of the season and in terms of trade flexibility with this deal, which would make it an enormous win.

Toronto Raptors: C

I'd love to give the Raptors' front office truth serum and see how they rank the two players and pick they received in this deal in terms of importance. For most observers, Barrett will be the key part of what Toronto is getting back.

It's a homecoming for Barrett, a native of the GTA and the No. 3 overall pick in 2019 behind All-Stars Zion Williamson and Ja Morant. Though the book is not closed on Barrett's development at age 23, a similar outcome seems unlikely. Barrett's scoring average has declined each of the last three seasons and part of the benefit for the Knicks making this deal now might be moving before his trade value slips.

The expectation when Barrett was drafted was that he would excel at creating his own shot. That's never proven the case. Based on analysis of shooting data from NBA Advanced Stats, Barrett peaked at a 46% effective field-goal percentage last season on shots with more than two seconds of touch time, which typically represent self-created shots. That was still nowhere close to the league average of 50% on these shots.

Over time, Barrett has decreased the rate of his shots that are self-created from 62% in 2021-22, prior to Brunson's arrival in New York, to 53% this season. But that hasn't made him any more efficient because, aside from fluky 40% 3-point shooting in 2020-21, Barrett has been below average beyond the arc. It's possible Barrett can improve in this regard, with fellow Canadian Andrew Wiggins' development into an All-Star with the Golden State Warriors as a template. With each passing year, however, the odds of Barrett becoming a star decrease.

I think Quickley has the best chance of making this a positive trade for the Raptors. Because he's exclusively come off the bench after starting 21 games last season, Quickley's minutes per game are down to 24.0 from the 28.9 he averaged as the runner-up in Sixth Man Award voting in 2022-23. Yet Quickley is scoring the same number of PPG (15.0 vs. 14.9), which means his per-minute scoring is up dramatically to 22.5 per 36 minutes -- the same as Barett, with more playmaking and better efficiency.

The worst true shooting percentage of Quickley's four-year career (.543) was better than Barrett's best (.536). He's up to .598 this season thanks to career-best 39.5% accuracy beyond the arc. That shooting makes Quickley an intriguing fit with Barnes, capable of providing him more floor spacing than current Toronto starting point guard Dennis Schroder. Given how much both are playing, we'll surely also see some of Schroder and Quickley together in the Raptors backcourt.

With Toronto mired out of the play-in at 12-19, moving Anunoby before the deadline was undoubtedly the right decision ahead of his unrestricted free agency. The lingering question is how much the Raptors' desire to compete now motivated making a deal built primarily on young players rather than picks -- or whether pick-heavy offers were no longer available for Anunoby in the last season of his contract.

Although not landing a single first-round pick in this trade is surely a disappointment for Toronto fans dreaming of a draft bounty, the Pistons' second-rounder has plenty of value in its own right as one of the top picks in the round and possibly No. 31 overall.

It's possible the Raptors believe they can be more competitive with better depth, and while that's not unreasonable given Toronto's point differential (minus-1.3) has been far better than a 12-19 record that's tied for 11th in the East, that shouldn't be the goal. Instead, the Raptors would be wise to continue tearing off the band-aid by trading All-Star forward Pascal Siakam, also an unrestricted free agent at season's end.

Given the top-6 protected pick Toronto owes the San Antonio Spurs from the Jakob Poeltl trade, the best course would be losing enough games to have a reasonable chance of keeping their pick. The Raptors would need to have one of the league's two worst records to assure that outcome, but they would have better than 50-50 odds if they finish in the bottom five.

As a result, trading Anunoby should only be the first step toward Toronto remaking its roster to build around Barnes.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 30 December 2023 20:54 (two years ago)

i feel like the raptors may see some residual benefit from further nudging their roster towards things like “having guys who play real basketball positions” but barrett kinda outright stinks, as a reclamation project we’ve prob seen worse ideas but i’ve never watched him and thought he was good

the one thing about OG is that he gets hurt all the time but i’m optimistic that he can look a lot better on offense this year moving from the shitshow in toronto to an actual great point guard. precious is a real bench piece too imo — idk if this makes the knicks an extra playoff round better but it certainly isn’t making them worse

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 30 December 2023 21:04 (two years ago)

i think iq is the better player for toronto, i think theyll be about as good as they are right now by reliving the big wing congestion. what they do with siakam (and maybe poeltl) will determine the most important thing which is will the spurs get their pick (top 6 protected)

polyamerie "it's more than this 1 thing" (m bison), Saturday, 30 December 2023 21:19 (two years ago)

they do still have the big wing congestion via barrett tho

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 21:41 (two years ago)

barrett is a tall 2 imo i know that distinction is kinda blurry or perhaps even meaningless in most cases but idk for him it makes sense to me

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 30 December 2023 21:45 (two years ago)

anunoby and brunson have the same agent, and that agent is leon roses son. i am guessing he will re sign.

looks like it was a "shit lets not lose him for nothing" trade for the raps

micah, Saturday, 30 December 2023 22:18 (two years ago)

ah nice detail, knicks are keeping it in the family, hire brunsons dad do deals with roses son

lag∞n, Saturday, 30 December 2023 22:20 (two years ago)

its a caa town

micah, Saturday, 30 December 2023 22:24 (two years ago)

pistons up 7 with 6:30 left

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:06 (two years ago)

up 4 with 17 left

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:30 (two years ago)

the pistons win I repeat the pistons win

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:37 (two years ago)

!!!!!!!

infinite wiggles (Spottie), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:37 (two years ago)

congratulations to the detroit pistons on winning a basketball game

Clay, Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:38 (two years ago)

this is not a drill

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:39 (two years ago)

they were like -20 per 100 possessions prob in crunch time but they did it

truly humbled underdog (k3vin k.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 01:39 (two years ago)

idk what to say but it was just obvious the raptors were going to lose to them

slob wizard (J0rdan S.) wrote this on thread 2023/24 NBA REGULAR SEASON THREAD "THANKING FOR WEMBANYAMA" on board I Love Hoops on Dec 22, 2023

pistons 3 of next 4 are vs brooklyn & toronto i kinda think they get one of those

slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 31 December 2023 02:40 (two years ago)

the raps weren't completely undermanned but any team playing the day they do a big midseason trade is going to be shorthanded and a little off-kilter on the vibes front. credit the pistons for playing as hard as ever especially when this thing got to 20+

call all destroyer, Sunday, 31 December 2023 02:44 (two years ago)

very kind of the celtics to give the pistons an extra 5 minutes of reps vs a good team. i think they are now ready to win their next game

― ciderpress, Friday, December 29, 2023 12:37 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

ciderpress, Sunday, 31 December 2023 04:21 (two years ago)

taking the weights off so to speak

ciderpress, Sunday, 31 December 2023 04:21 (two years ago)

chaos https://t.co/VwFY6ULByr pic.twitter.com/2RNGP7kisV

— Rob Perez (@WorldWideWob) December 31, 2023

infinite wiggles (Spottie), Sunday, 31 December 2023 04:46 (two years ago)

congrats 2 pistons we did it bb

lag∞n, Sunday, 31 December 2023 06:01 (two years ago)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCpblVNWkAAPIhR?format=jpg&name=medium

lag∞n, Sunday, 31 December 2023 06:05 (two years ago)

one perfect shot

ciderpress, Sunday, 31 December 2023 06:15 (two years ago)

I think I like that even more than the infamous shot with JR Smith in the finals

frogbs, Sunday, 31 December 2023 18:05 (two years ago)


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