i would *certainly* say he’s the best player whose team got swept in the second round of the playoffs
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 01:21 (two years ago) link
ahh the ringzzzz argument. the most advanced of positions
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:23 (two years ago) link
as all the big brains know if your team is bad you also must be bad
pretty easy to build the giannis over jokic MVP case. he’s on a better team in a harder conference, scores more points, is a top 3 defensive player in the league at minimum, and is simply a better player when it really comes down to it
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 01:25 (two years ago) link
yes, scores more points, has better teammates, I too love to watch sports in the year 2000
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:27 (two years ago) link
scoring points is an important part of basketball this may surprise
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 01:27 (two years ago) link
personally I’m a big fan of the “box score stats”
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:28 (two years ago) link
again, totally reasonable to look at both players and think jokic is the mvp. it’s also totally reasonable to look at both players and think that two time MVP, reigning finals MVP, and best player in the NBA giannis is the MVP. yet only one side wants to say there is no discussion to be had
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 01:29 (two years ago) link
advanced stats are wonderful. the ppl who created them and whose livelihoods are based on them will readily tell you they exist to be parts of the conversation and not the ends of them. it’s also well known that all publicly available advanced defensive stats are dubious at best which is a convenient factor in the debate between two players in which one is universally agreed upon to be a much better defensive player.
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 01:32 (two years ago) link
anyway, as our very own stephen a smith makes his narrative contrarian MVP case, jokic is dominating on the road vs the full strength world champions
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:35 (two years ago) link
the thing about advanced stats in basketball is that they often disagree. this year however…
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:36 (two years ago) link
anyway like I was saying before, I’m not trying to take anything away from giannis — I’m a big fan and he’s having a great year. he should be recognized for that somehow that isn’t dishonest about who the best player actually is
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:38 (two years ago) link
anyway now that the nuggets are up 22 on the road vs the world champs I expect this coversation to slow down a bit
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:43 (two years ago) link
Something is not right with the Bucks right now
― frogbs, Monday, 31 January 2022 01:44 (two years ago) link
I sort of see advocacy for anyone other than jokic as analogous to someone advocating against the covid vaccine. like clearly they have their own internal thought process that makes sense to them, so it’s challenging to reason with that. but it’s clearly an insane position.
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:46 (two years ago) link
Jokic has 18-9-15-3-1 in 28 minutes against the defending champs
― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 31 January 2022 01:47 (two years ago) link
that’s good, but did you know that giannis is widely considered to be a better defender
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:49 (two years ago) link
was listening to windhorst's pod earlier and he dropped this and immediately moved on: "the most underplayed story in the nba today is the relationship between donovan mitchell and rudy gobert"
― call all destroyer, Monday, 31 January 2022 01:49 (two years ago) link
Yeah I’m learning lots of things ITT. Apparently the East is the “harder conference” or something
― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 31 January 2022 01:49 (two years ago) link
giannis has 6 more points than jokic btw. you need points to win iirc
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:50 (two years ago) link
― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, January 30, 2022 8:49 PM (thirty-one seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is so funny. based on like the first 20 games of the year or something as far as I can tell
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:51 (two years ago) link
bradley beal was actually the MVP last year because he had the most points
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:53 (two years ago) link
it’s impossible to argue against this
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:54 (two years ago) link
yeesh, i didnt know jordan was an antivaxxer
― micah, Monday, 31 January 2022 01:55 (two years ago) link
it’s too bad that jokic isn’t going to play in the 4th quarter — his team being up by 25 — because giannis is going to end the game with more points, which is actually the most important stat
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 01:58 (two years ago) link
to really break the game down to its primal state and understand it fully one must first recognize that the first team to score wins
― Clay, Monday, 31 January 2022 02:02 (two years ago) link
100% support moving hoops into a sudden death format
― class project pat (m bison), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:03 (two years ago) link
only if u legalize fouls tho
― class project pat (m bison), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:04 (two years ago) link
giannis, who averages 1.5 more points per game than jokic, is the real mvp
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:04 (two years ago) link
like a bear in hibernation, nuggets fans should reserve the feeling of beating one of the best teams in the NBA in january for when june comes around and such experiences are no longer accessible
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 02:05 (two years ago) link
yes. personally when I vote for the most valuable player in the 2022 regular season, I draw upon my recollections of the 2021 playoffs and my speculations about the upcoming playoffs
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:10 (two years ago) link
tbh kevin and matt arguing something this strongly just makes me feel its more likely to be wrong
― micah, Monday, 31 January 2022 02:15 (two years ago) link
anyway I know jordan is watching football tonight. jokic won this matchup against all odds. something to consider!
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:16 (two years ago) link
i agree w the nuggs fans, jokic is dragging this team to the playoffs missing their 2nd and 3rd best guys.
― class project pat (m bison), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:17 (two years ago) link
MVP consideration aside, the nuggets are 1.5 games out of 4th place in the west. which I’m sure has nothing to do with their best player
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:18 (two years ago) link
the thing is it’s super easy to say the best player in the league plays on a team/in a league where winning the title is not reasonable to expect, sort of like lebron a decade or so ago. but for some reason some folks want to create a more straightforward narrative. I can’t explain it tbh
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:23 (two years ago) link
Idk why Jordan cares about giannis vs Jokic because they’re both players his favorite GM will never draft
― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 31 January 2022 02:29 (two years ago) link
it’s crazy the nuggets have been able to pull off the fifth seed in the west without multiple time all stars and routine all NBA selections jamal murray and michael porter jr. as kevin once told us, they make up one of the NBA’s renowned “big three”s, so it’s a loss that’s almost impossible to quantify, not just for the great fans of denver but for the league as a whole
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 02:30 (two years ago) link
the thing is there’s no reason to have all this disagreement…we can all just say jokic is the best player and the rest of his team sucks, but instead there HAS to be this debate over MVP that just completely disregards reality and stats and those sorts of things
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:33 (two years ago) link
honestly maybe certain ILH posters would prefer the award be renamed “best player on a team with a reasonable chance to win the finals”???
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:34 (two years ago) link
in that case giannis would be a super reasonable pick
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:35 (two years ago) link
most valuable player in the NBA works just fine
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 02:36 (two years ago) link
though as I understand there’s a big football game on now. we can talk about this after?
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:36 (two years ago) link
like I know there’s bigger things going on than actually watching the games
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:38 (two years ago) link
― J0rdan S., Monday, 31 January 2022 02:39 (two years ago) link
i'm of the opinion that the near certainty that the nuggets become one of the eight worst teams in the NBA without jokic and a legit (if somewhat fever dream) contender to win the West with him makes a spectacular argument for nikola being a 2-time MVP but maybe my brain isn't galaxy enough
― i cannot help if you made yourself not funny (forksclovetofu), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:40 (two years ago) link
honestly can’t imagine being a late 2000s lebron stan arguing against 2022 jokic winning MVP based on team performance or whatever
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:41 (two years ago) link
seems contradictory and such
feel like some folks see playoff outcomes as exculpatory despite years, decades even, experience to the contrary…interesting
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:44 (two years ago) link
like I said no one is harmed just by admitting jokic is the best player and he plays on a flawed depleted team. just an extremely silly conversation with folks with some ulterior motivations
― auld gang syne (k3vin k.), Monday, 31 January 2022 02:46 (two years ago) link