nba playoffs aka the 'offs (which includes the 'ins) 2021

Mavs have generally "won" their moves so it's hard for me to say they have a bad front office. otoh most of those moves have been around the fringes, not for major pieces, which is why their roster after Luka is demonstrably worse than the Hawks. But, their MO for basically the entire Cuban era has been to stay relevant at minimum if not be a contender. Carlisle really raises their floor with that so he has probably masked multiple times when that approach would've sunk them as bad as it has for other teams who hold on too long. Contrast the Hawks who have had a bevy of lottery picks, some hits some misses. I have to agree with Jordan that having a guy who, barring catastrophic injury, is going to be a top 5 player in the league for the next decade, trumps basically any other way of building in the NBA. But also true that if you gave Luka the Hawks' supporting cast they'd be contending for a championship.

xxxp yes it made no sense when they blew up the championship team. mavs seem good at engendering loyalty so I won't be surprised if Luka stays for the bulk of his career, but most superstars in Dirk's position after that dismantling would probably be ready to move on

i guess my hot take of the day is "making the playoffs 15 out of 16 years, making the finals twice and winning a title, then having three down seasons and immediately acquiring a top 5 player in the NBA is good, actually"

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:51 PM (forty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

this conversation literally started with me saying their front office hasnt been good in a while now youre bringing up a championship from 10 years ago

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:28 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

timeline goes back over 20 years there

actually the conversation started bcuz you guys were shitting on the mavs "player development" but now it's morphed into saying "marginal guys over performing" is bad, as if turning undrafted players and salary dump cast offs into above average players capable of getting a top 5 seed in the west is a sign of organizational incompetence

Lol, had forgotten that Cuban bought the team from this guy:

http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2019/07/0710_perot-1000x663.jpg

ive been saying exactly the same thing the whole time i will cut and paste if you want

people are saying ainge has been fucking up the last few years which is ridiculous he traded for garnett

hawks def have better players than the mavs, mavs front office has been pretty terrible for a while, which has been obscured by the fact that they have an alltime great coach and now a great player too but i def dont trust them to put it all together for luka

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 11:39 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

the genesis

the hawks have a "better roster" bcuz they made trades to acquire a bunch of assets, including trading luka doncic which actually was terrible, were 30 games under .500 for three straight years in the east, and had a bunch of high picks. they made some nice picks, made some nice trades, that's all wonderful. they're worse than the mavs (does anyone dispute this?) and are further from a championship (does anyone dispute this?). yet one front office is good (?) and one is "pretty terrible". ok sure.

the mavs made one great decision, which kinda fell into their laps, will they make some more, we will see

not a lot to love in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history

the idea that the mavs front office is "pretty terrible" based on the idea that they didn't have a ready made championship contender available to luka in the first three years of his career is insane. again, "pretty terrible" front offices are ones like new orleans, minnesota, sacramento, washington etc who acquire an unending series of top picks, run into some all star talent along the way and still don't make the playoffs on their star's rookie contract, or sometimes ever. the mavs making the playoffs for 16 years and then developing a bunch of marginal talent into above average players leading to the 5th seed in the west in luka's third year is actually the sign of a good franchise, i'm sorry to have to point this out

not a lot to love in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 2:04 PM (two minutes ago)

the mavs have had three top 10 picks since 1998, one was dirk nowitzki, one was luka doncic, and one was dennis smith jr who they immediately traded for better players. but yeah let's celebrate the atlanta hawks for picking kevin heurter and deandre hunter.

yeah but their only 2 top 10 picks in the last 23 years are Trae (flipped for Luka) and DSJ (flipped for Zinger + Hardaway)

xp

yeah what happened to the mavs top picks

wouldve been nice to have them those years they missed the playoffs

anyway again not sure how what happened when they drafted dirk who can barely walk now is relevant

maybe too busy signing harrison barnes to a max contract to bother with draft picks

be 30 games under .500 for three years, get a bunch of picks, trade trae young for luka doncic, make the playoffs one time getting the fifth seed in the east: this good

acquire luka doncic, make the playoffs twice, be one of the 5 best teams in the western conference: actually, this is bad

they did one good thing, get luka

what other personnel moves in say the last ten years can we point to

when trying to figure out if they have the competence to assemble a championship team its prob best to look at all the moves

and theres just not a lot great there, their three biggest moves besides luka are prob trading for zinger, maxing out barnes, and drafting dsj

havent looked into where all their draft picks went but i suspect its not great

ok i just perused this list and i'm coming around to lagoon's side here...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/nelsodo99x.html

again - developing seth curry, kleber, being patient with dwight powell till he turned into something, rejuvenating hardaway. these are net positives for their record. they just don't move the needle a ton. luckily for them it doesn't matter all that much with luka

should add finney-smith to the patience/development column (and the doesn't move the needle a ton column)

those are also coaching things more than personel

In a draft-night swap, Olynyk was selected by the Dallas Mavericks with the 13th overall pick in the 2013 NBA draft and then traded to the Boston Celtics for the rights to Lucas Nogueira and two future second round picks.

one pick before giannis fwiw, not going to kill the mavs for that tho obvs any team who wanted him couldve had him, just a classic nba footnote

2 picks before. don't disrespect shabazz muhammad!

lol sorry shabazz!

damn it got tasty in here

jordan i can’t help - and this is all love - mentally adding “things of that nature” to the end of all your posts itt

stephen a smith is an oratorical god so i’ll accept that compliment

lol

the idea that the mavs have made no good moves... developing undrafted players into above average players, positive playoff contributors is actually the sign of a healthy franchise. disconnecting this from
the front office as if rick carlisle is some singular god who conjures good play out of bad players... we know this is false. it takes many ppl across an organization to turn undrafted & marginal talent into production and it’s the hallmark of many of the agreed upon best run franchises in the NBA from san antonio to miami to toronto. the argument that this is a blight on the mavs is ridiculous.

even the porzingis trade... he isn’t gonna be the second all star and the contract may prove onerous to them tho they’re two years from it being an expiring. but they traded a bad player (dennis smith) and two decent but not great picks (one which was used on kevin knox) for a player (porzingis) who is nonetheless useful and another player (tim hardaway jr) who has been the second best and most consistent player on back to back playoff teams and who has just shred the clippers in two playoff wins.

and oh yeah they traded up to pick luka doncic

you have to at least try to separate out coaching from personnel otherwise you cant talk about them, and i dont think its unreasonable to credit coaching to things that are well generally coaching, especially when the front office performance has otherwise been not great, i mean sure it could be that the front office is great at identifying undervalued role players and bad at the other stuff, and the zinger trade was obvs very bad i mean they maxed him out and that was always part of the plan, maxing out guys who arent worth it is bad, again luka the one good move that fell into their laps

let’s look at the teams who picked in the top 10 of the luka draft

suns — in the playoffs, have made a series of great moves. also had devin booker for 5 years and never made the playoffs leading to their front office being canned

kings — one of the worst franchises in the NBA. actual incompetence.

memphis — nice roster, made some good picks, not nearly as good as dallas

hawks — made some nice moves finally made the playoffs after three seasons 30 games under .500

magic — franchise that made the finals 10 years ago and has never recovered, can’t turn high picks or marginal talent into anything of substance

bulls — got rid of a star player and have not recovers despite a series of high picks and playing in the weaker conference

cavs — some of the best draft pick luck in history and have been one of the three worst franchises in the NBA whenever lebron is on another team

knicks — reputation of organizational incompetence precedes itself

sixers — no 1 seed in the east only after the deepest tank job in the NBA and firing their front office for being incompetent

so we have 4 playoff teams, two of which (suns and sixers) are better than dallas this year but had to be bottom of the basement bad for several years and go thru total front office turnover at least once to get there. and then you have 5 teams that actually demonstrate front office incompetence. the mavs, if anything, are ahead of schedule with luka.

yeah i mean the teams who pick at the top of the draft are usually bad??

i do like memphis tho, if ja can learn to shoot they are on the correct trajectory for contention

what are the mavs gonna do about tim hardaway

the hawks front office basically reset the entire team when they got trae. they've made a lot of competent moves in free agency, the draft and through trades. i just don't see dallas doing anything other than surrounding luka with a bunch of sub par vets (who do better than usual).

grizz are pretty well positioned for the next era of the west, are also a well run franchise getting production out of low first round, second round and undrafted players giving them a quick turnaround back to relevance after a sustained run of success in a small market which is very difficult. but also they demonstrate how important it is to have a luka level star on your team, memphis prob still needs more tho maybe ja gets there it’s not out of the question.

jjj development is the key to that team imo

and also things like how much will they spend on retaining d brooks

jjj is really good, brooks is looking extremely solid and feisty, i mean theyll def need to make more moves but theyve pretty much nailed it so far

luka is better than ja but i like where memphis is at as a team/org more, but having luka and being a bigger market gives dallas a lot more room for error, memphis pretty much has to make all the right calls and have things go their way too

maybe dallas can get donovan mitchell who knows

the hawks will also mostly be locked into their team very soon once they give all their young guys money so they better be good. i mean they can still make trades and stuff and if their front office really is good it will be fine but the bill on those young guys is going to arrive. the mavs will have a good deal of financial flexibility even after they pay luka, especially post-zinger, will be in a desirable warm weather market and will have a top 2-3 player in the league to attract talent. the idea that they’re at some dead end is ridiculous