nba playoffs aka the 'offs (which includes the 'ins) 2021

the front office hires and empowers the coach... i mean this is a ridiculous conversation.

also worth considering that they signed carlisle in 2008

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:12 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

its not that hard to make a distinction between personnel moves and coaching sorry!!!!!!!

its totally normal and common

in fact when judging coaching people generally do it relative to the strength of the roster

good coaching getting more out of marginal talent than other organizations would is not going to read, to me, as a sign of organizational incompetence. i think that's crazy

in that case then its impossible to judge coaching there is only the org

this conversation is just really myopic. yeah the porzingis trade wasn't great and the extension was bad but the contract is done in 3 years. an entire generation of players will be free agents when that contract is done. luka will be a grand total of 25 years old. i think the mavs might be able to figure out how to attract a player or two who might want to come play with luka.

so theyve done a bad job until now but maybe will do better later, sure maybe

BUT should doing a bad job until now maybe inform how i think about their chances of doing better later?

ALSO is it as easy as attracting a player or two

sometimes maybe but i would say generally no

if the mavs had a bad front office they wouldn't even be in the playoffs bcuz tim hardaway, dorian finney smith, jalen brunson, seth curry, klieber etc would all actually suck, or have never developed from marginal NBA talents to above average players. they'd be the pelicans with anthony davis or the t wolves with karl towns or the suns w/ devin booker accomplishing nothing for 5 seasons. you can go down the list of actually incompetent franchises who get players of luka's general caliber and don't do anything with it. so the mavs don't have lots of high draft picks on their teams... ok. they're a top 5 seed in the obvious harder conference w/ a bunch of fuckin randos, how is that a sign of a bad front office? you're pointing at the color red and telling me it's blue, to me.

youre looking at the result and totally refusing to examine the process

so theyve done a bad job until now but maybe will do better later, sure maybe

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:19 PM (three minutes ago)

i don't understand what bad job you're referring to. they tried to extend dirk's relevance as long as possible and were not very good for a grand total of three seasons. i will now point you towards the years 2000-2016 where they made the playoffs 15 times, made the finals twice, and won a title. what bad job are we talking about

this conversation literally started with me saying their front office hasnt been good in a while now youre bringing up a championship from 10 year ago

but as long as were talking about that what happened right after that championship

anyway theyve got a lot of marginal guys over performing and a superstar they looking nothing like a championship team despite having a top guy, will they get it together, maybe, having a top guy is a great place to start, and theyve got a great coach who dragged a bunch of rosters who had no business being in the playoffs to first round losses, they really should be able to do this, and yet...

“Tried to extend dirk’s relevance”- had a legendary ball of fame player who stayed with them for 20 years as they surrounded him with various role players, let steve Nash walk, were very good sometimes

He took less money from them, refused to ask out when things went wrong. Dirk saved them from themselves over and over and Luka will do the same.

dallas' front office is a little quirky and probably hamstrung by the whims of the owner, i'm guessing they'd grade out around average but with an unusual distribution of highs and lows.

they were out of the playoffs for three years in a row with harrison barnes, a ridiculous signing fwiw, as their best player, then they got luka

blowing up their championship team was legitimately one of the most insane decisions in the history of sport

that was heavily influenced by the owner iirc

He took less money from them, refused to ask out when things went wrong. Dirk saved them from themselves over and over and Luka will do the same.

― Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:39 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is correct, except who knows what luka will do

haha yeah your all time great player never wanting to leave and in fact taking less money to stay sure is a sign of being a poorly run franchise. if only the atlanta hawks were, uh, this bad!

dirk was nice

i guess my hot take of the day is "making the playoffs 15 out of 16 years, making the finals twice and winning a title, then having three down seasons and immediately acquiring a top 5 player in the NBA is good, actually"

Mavs have generally "won" their moves so it's hard for me to say they have a bad front office. otoh most of those moves have been around the fringes, not for major pieces, which is why their roster after Luka is demonstrably worse than the Hawks. But, their MO for basically the entire Cuban era has been to stay relevant at minimum if not be a contender. Carlisle really raises their floor with that so he has probably masked multiple times when that approach would've sunk them as bad as it has for other teams who hold on too long. Contrast the Hawks who have had a bevy of lottery picks, some hits some misses. I have to agree with Jordan that having a guy who, barring catastrophic injury, is going to be a top 5 player in the league for the next decade, trumps basically any other way of building in the NBA. But also true that if you gave Luka the Hawks' supporting cast they'd be contending for a championship.

xxxp yes it made no sense when they blew up the championship team. mavs seem good at engendering loyalty so I won't be surprised if Luka stays for the bulk of his career, but most superstars in Dirk's position after that dismantling would probably be ready to move on

i guess my hot take of the day is "making the playoffs 15 out of 16 years, making the finals twice and winning a title, then having three down seasons and immediately acquiring a top 5 player in the NBA is good, actually"

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:51 PM (forty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

this conversation literally started with me saying their front office hasnt been good in a while now youre bringing up a championship from 10 years ago

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 1:28 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

timeline goes back over 20 years there

actually the conversation started bcuz you guys were shitting on the mavs "player development" but now it's morphed into saying "marginal guys over performing" is bad, as if turning undrafted players and salary dump cast offs into above average players capable of getting a top 5 seed in the west is a sign of organizational incompetence

Lol, had forgotten that Cuban bought the team from this guy:

http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2019/07/0710_perot-1000x663.jpg

ive been saying exactly the same thing the whole time i will cut and paste if you want

people are saying ainge has been fucking up the last few years which is ridiculous he traded for garnett

hawks def have better players than the mavs, mavs front office has been pretty terrible for a while, which has been obscured by the fact that they have an alltime great coach and now a great player too but i def dont trust them to put it all together for luka

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 11:39 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

the genesis

the hawks have a "better roster" bcuz they made trades to acquire a bunch of assets, including trading luka doncic which actually was terrible, were 30 games under .500 for three straight years in the east, and had a bunch of high picks. they made some nice picks, made some nice trades, that's all wonderful. they're worse than the mavs (does anyone dispute this?) and are further from a championship (does anyone dispute this?). yet one front office is good (?) and one is "pretty terrible". ok sure.

the mavs made one great decision, which kinda fell into their laps, will they make some more, we will see

not a lot to love in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history

the idea that the mavs front office is "pretty terrible" based on the idea that they didn't have a ready made championship contender available to luka in the first three years of his career is insane. again, "pretty terrible" front offices are ones like new orleans, minnesota, sacramento, washington etc who acquire an unending series of top picks, run into some all star talent along the way and still don't make the playoffs on their star's rookie contract, or sometimes ever. the mavs making the playoffs for 16 years and then developing a bunch of marginal talent into above average players leading to the 5th seed in the west in luka's third year is actually the sign of a good franchise, i'm sorry to have to point this out

not a lot to love in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks_draft_history

― lag∞n, Wednesday, May 26, 2021 2:04 PM (two minutes ago)

the mavs have had three top 10 picks since 1998, one was dirk nowitzki, one was luka doncic, and one was dennis smith jr who they immediately traded for better players. but yeah let's celebrate the atlanta hawks for picking kevin heurter and deandre hunter.

yeah but their only 2 top 10 picks in the last 23 years are Trae (flipped for Luka) and DSJ (flipped for Zinger + Hardaway)

xp

yeah what happened to the mavs top picks

wouldve been nice to have them those years they missed the playoffs

anyway again not sure how what happened when they drafted dirk who can barely walk now is relevant

maybe too busy signing harrison barnes to a max contract to bother with draft picks

be 30 games under .500 for three years, get a bunch of picks, trade trae young for luka doncic, make the playoffs one time getting the fifth seed in the east: this good

acquire luka doncic, make the playoffs twice, be one of the 5 best teams in the western conference: actually, this is bad

they did one good thing, get luka