the lakers have just pooped their big-boy pants: 2012-2013 NBA regular season thread (part 2)

dude i literally do not care about whose team was better, who has more rings, etc. lebron has played in teams full of jokers his entire career, and save wade and bosh, that's been true of his heat teams too. i'm talking about his individual play

hey, MJ needed pippen and bron needed wade. no shame in that
― manti 乒乓 (k3vin k.), Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Jesus not to have a smh-athon or anything but MJ needed Pippen + a solid, roles-defined cast, which is what LeBron needs much, much more than having Wade and/or Bosh. Kinda banging my head here, but I'm very happy to go through the last 35 years of championship winners and point out how basically every single one -- Old Celtics, Old Lakers, Old Pistons, Bulls, New Lakers, New Pistons, Spurs, even New Celtics, ALL HAD COMPLETE TEAMS WITH STRONG COMPLIMENTARY PLAYERS.

I mean Miami needed otherworldly performances from Wade and LeBron to get it last year, and it's amazing that LeBron is so much better than everyone else that he gives his team a chance to win every year even though he's had pretty shitty overall teams his whole career.

yup

so at his peak he quit on his team in ECF, and then pissed his pants in 1st Finals against a moderately good opponent. Sounds like G.O.A.T to me.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:50 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Heaven forefend the other absolutely insane playoff 4th quarters the dude had, playing on shitty teams where he was the main focus of the opposing team's defense and still would score like 20 straight 4th q. points because he's just that good.

yeah it's almost like the clutchness granny's talking about is mostly imagined

haha riiiiight

dude i literally do not care about whose team was better, who has more rings, etc. lebron has played in teams full of jokers his entire career, and save wade and bosh, that's been true of his heat teams too. i'm talking about his individual play

which, you, possibly you alone, are capable of accurately measuring and judging. it's a team sport dude. a chaotic, flowing one at that. MJ's "individual play" was better, he consistently performed better when it mattered throughout his entire career than LeBron has. Like I said, LeBron has to make up for some stinkers. MJ had almost no stinkers. Go look at his Finals stats, playoff stats.

i'm mostly imagining career Finals avg of 33.6/6/6.

Heaven forefend the other absolutely insane playoff 4th quarters the dude had

point is MJ set the bar by having virtually none of these playoff stinkers. LeBron is great, 2nd greatest ever. At that level, 1 or 2 bad performances in important games matter.

2nd or 3rd greatest. Never saw Russell play, can't accurately judge.

if lebron singlehandedly murks durant's chances of winning a championship for the next 2 or 3 years it will be a greater achievement than anything jordan ever accomplished

lebron will go down with the best all around statistical bio in the history of the game. he won't have the most championships. which matters more will be a debate that rages on even after all of us die and/or the planet melts.

well kev has figured out how to judge individual play in a vacuum, teammates and opponents are irrelevant, even outcomes. all praise due.

Especially since Lebron probably could have won a couple more while he was baseballin.

Pardon me, Jordan could have.

the thing about the mavs finals seems irrelevant to me provided lebron ends up winning 5 rings or whatever... it will be an even more minor footnote than it seems now

point is MJ set the bar by having virtually none of these playoff stinkers. LeBron is great, 2nd greatest ever. At that level, 1 or 2 bad performances in important games matter.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:16 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Then you know that, in the Celtics/Cavs series with LeBron's "Quit" game, his worst two games were 15/6/7 and 22/9/8.

Jordan's '89 series against the Pistons, his worst games: 18/5/9 and 23/2/3.

Point being that even LeBron's stinkers weren't really that stinky, and definitely not that far below Jordan's mid-period, putting-shit-together era.

what was LeBron's FG% in those games?

it's real confirmation bias to characterize jordan's and lebron's "failures" at the same stages in their careers as markedly different

they both failed and worked shit out... lebron's career vis a vis jordan will only be measured by what he does from here on out imo

BEARDS

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/8926010/dallas-mavericks-sport-beards-reach-500

minor footnote that gets brought up because hey guess who never lost in the Finals.

Also, I tend to give "points" to athletes that are super creative, have beautiful games, and/or innovate. Maravich for example gets bumped up higher in the pantheon than he would just based on stats and success. MJ has the edge here over LeBron.

Not totally sure, but unless Bron went like 4/35 or something, it seems like ridic hair-splitting.

Just think that judging two all-timers by how comparing their worst (but still pretty decent) pre-championship playoff games doesn't really prove much? Like, LeBron is demonstrably amazing in the playoffs all things considered, so was Jordan. Jordan wilting against the Pistons held as much validity as LeBron wilting against the Celtics. IE, both look kinda ridiculous.

LOL @ the idea that lebron doesn't get all the points for "innovation"

LeBron's failures involved him personally pissing his pants, MJ's "failures" didn't. I don't know why you would just ignore LeBron's 1st Finals appearance when judging his entire body of work.

saying that "jordan never lost in the finals" gives jordan credit for not even reaching the finals until lebron had done it 3 times

well lebron actually went to the finals in like his 3rd year in the league or whatever but okay

or rather xp OTM J0rdan.

Also, I tend to give "points" to athletes that are super creative, have beautiful games, and/or innovate. Maravich for example gets bumped up higher in the pantheon than he would just based on stats and success. MJ has the edge here over LeBron.

pretty OTM, too, just because LeBron bulling his way through the lane for high% layup/dunks isn't as much fun to watch as Jordan/Maravich doing amazing things. LeBron is just as innovative, but it's more boring innovation, and mostly has to do w/ him being built like a 6'8 linebacker.

go back and watch the last few mins of that game about the Celtics. he stops trying, it's baffling.

hi, Lebron Lost to mavs in what, 7th year in League, when he has 2 perennial all stars w/him

sure. and michael was playing with a hall of famer too and didn't even reach the finals until that same point.

which is why i think their careers will be defined from 1st championship on out. michael got his first and then never lost another one. we'll see if lebron can do the same.

Glad we're all in agreement, Dirk >>>> Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron, although might need confirmation that Dirk didn't piss his pants at some point, will let the everyone else figure that out.

style of play before-after MJ changed more than before-after LeBron. what does LeBron do that is particularly creative? yeah seems like his innovation comes from combo of size/speed/coordination.

well the funny thing is that both dirk and lebron were noted pants pissers until they both figured shit out and went nuclear xp

remember when MJ lost his 1st Finals to Magic and then we all forgot about that and decided to judge him from there on out?

style of play before-after MJ changed more than before-after LeBron. what does LeBron do that is particularly creative? yeah seems like his innovation comes from combo of size/speed/coordination.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:45 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark

just a warning to everyone that tho this might seem like a line of argument that you want to pursue, it will just lead to the same type of discussion we had when granny tried to argue that luol deng was a "more creative scorer" than rajon rondo or w/e that nonsense argument was

hi, Lebron Lost to mavs in what, 7th year in League, when he has 2 perennial all stars w/him
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK, awesome, so you actually don't understand that having a top-heavy team bodes very ill for 'ship chances / you're willing to define a whole player's career on one bad 4th Q. against a championship team even though basically all other evidence suggests that LeBron is an amazing playoffs basketball player.

hmmm yes how is someone who shoots 40% from three and is the best in the nba in the paint and also guards every position on the floor innovative. hmmmm.

michael got his first and then never lost another one. we'll see if lebron can do the same.

lost another one? and then? there is no "another one" or "and then". there is for LeBron. this is not hard to understand.

i didn't realize that michael jordan never lost anything ever, i guess i should just back away from this argument because clearly the guy that thinks lebron's first finals was against the mavs is gonna school me here

Also Granny you're leaving out that fact that LeBron quit on his team so hard that the dude HAD A TRIPLE DOUBLE IN THE NEXT CAVS/CELTICS GAME so obviously he'd quit on his team by that point.

Bulls weren't top heavy???
it wasn't one bad 4th quarter, how quickly people seem to have forgotten. there were several 4th quarters. "all other evidence"...see there's no other need to dismiss certain Finals evidence and just focus on the "other evidence" w/MJ. totally willing to disqualify him at the moment (like i said, he's got time to make up for it, but it'll have to be something incredible...4 or 5 more Finals like last year at least) for these bad performances, because there's one player who had a better track record.

omg a trip dub no way he couldn't have possibly quit on his team let's just ignore what we all saw w/our own eyes take place in the last couple mins cause hey HAD A TRIPLE DOUBLE

well it's very convenient for danny to frame all of MJ's failures in one way and all of lebron's in another when in reality they both just failed (until they didn't), but it makes for disingenuous arguing

Granny serious question-- r u a Dan Gilbert sock?

e guy that thinks lebron's first finals was against the mavs is gonna school me here

yes, I think that. That it what I think. Congrats to you for knowing better. Than what I think. Cause I think that was his 1st Finals.

well that's what you said

right Jord, I'm disingenous. but hey let's ignore these aspects of LeBron's career and just focus on the good things, cumbayah.

because it's convenient for your argument to pretend that lebron didn't make a finals in his fourth season