the lakers have just pooped their big-boy pants: 2012-2013 NBA regular season thread (part 2)

hahaha yeah ok thomas not that good, ok buddy. ok. good one. yeah.

"that" in the matt armstrong sense from last night, meaning not as good as dirk

if only MJ were as good as LeBron, would've swept those Pistons

obviously he was really really good (but probably a little overrated)

good thing you're here to properly rate everyone

like, thomas for instance

Man people scoring points on Dirk nagl. And neither is diminishing the late '80s Pistons, which featured one of the all-time great pgs in his prime, a hall-of-fame shooter, and one of the all-time best defenders/rebounders (not to mention an amazing cast of role-players, which Dirking Dirk had and LeBron has basically never, ever had in his whole career and would greatly benefit from).

LeBron is amazing but idk how I see it he has to make up for 2010 and 2011 playoffs by doing crazy stuff like avg trip dub, 8 titles in 10 yrs, something like that. body of work counts for more than peak play when imo when talking who's the greatest.

hey, MJ needed pippen and bron needed wade. no shame in that

LeBron is amazing but idk how I see it he has to make up for 2010 and 2011 playoffs by doing crazy stuff like avg trip dub, 8 titles in 10 yrs, something like that. body of work counts for more than peak play when imo when talking who's the greatest.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:47 PM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lebron's peak has been going in for about 6 years now and isn't slowing down anytime soon. don't really care about counting rings, but he'll have a few

so at his peak he quit on his team in ECF, and then pissed his pants in 1st Finals against a moderately good opponent. Sounds like G.O.A.T to me.

please don't say that Mavs team was better than '91 Lakers

dude i literally do not care about whose team was better, who has more rings, etc. lebron has played in teams full of jokers his entire career, and save wade and bosh, that's been true of his heat teams too. i'm talking about his individual play

hey, MJ needed pippen and bron needed wade. no shame in that
― manti 乒乓 (k3vin k.), Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Jesus not to have a smh-athon or anything but MJ needed Pippen + a solid, roles-defined cast, which is what LeBron needs much, much more than having Wade and/or Bosh. Kinda banging my head here, but I'm very happy to go through the last 35 years of championship winners and point out how basically every single one -- Old Celtics, Old Lakers, Old Pistons, Bulls, New Lakers, New Pistons, Spurs, even New Celtics, ALL HAD COMPLETE TEAMS WITH STRONG COMPLIMENTARY PLAYERS.

I mean Miami needed otherworldly performances from Wade and LeBron to get it last year, and it's amazing that LeBron is so much better than everyone else that he gives his team a chance to win every year even though he's had pretty shitty overall teams his whole career.

yup

so at his peak he quit on his team in ECF, and then pissed his pants in 1st Finals against a moderately good opponent. Sounds like G.O.A.T to me.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:50 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Heaven forefend the other absolutely insane playoff 4th quarters the dude had, playing on shitty teams where he was the main focus of the opposing team's defense and still would score like 20 straight 4th q. points because he's just that good.

yeah it's almost like the clutchness granny's talking about is mostly imagined

haha riiiiight

dude i literally do not care about whose team was better, who has more rings, etc. lebron has played in teams full of jokers his entire career, and save wade and bosh, that's been true of his heat teams too. i'm talking about his individual play

which, you, possibly you alone, are capable of accurately measuring and judging. it's a team sport dude. a chaotic, flowing one at that. MJ's "individual play" was better, he consistently performed better when it mattered throughout his entire career than LeBron has. Like I said, LeBron has to make up for some stinkers. MJ had almost no stinkers. Go look at his Finals stats, playoff stats.

i'm mostly imagining career Finals avg of 33.6/6/6.

Heaven forefend the other absolutely insane playoff 4th quarters the dude had

point is MJ set the bar by having virtually none of these playoff stinkers. LeBron is great, 2nd greatest ever. At that level, 1 or 2 bad performances in important games matter.

2nd or 3rd greatest. Never saw Russell play, can't accurately judge.

if lebron singlehandedly murks durant's chances of winning a championship for the next 2 or 3 years it will be a greater achievement than anything jordan ever accomplished

lebron will go down with the best all around statistical bio in the history of the game. he won't have the most championships. which matters more will be a debate that rages on even after all of us die and/or the planet melts.

well kev has figured out how to judge individual play in a vacuum, teammates and opponents are irrelevant, even outcomes. all praise due.

Especially since Lebron probably could have won a couple more while he was baseballin.

Pardon me, Jordan could have.

the thing about the mavs finals seems irrelevant to me provided lebron ends up winning 5 rings or whatever... it will be an even more minor footnote than it seems now

point is MJ set the bar by having virtually none of these playoff stinkers. LeBron is great, 2nd greatest ever. At that level, 1 or 2 bad performances in important games matter.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:16 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Then you know that, in the Celtics/Cavs series with LeBron's "Quit" game, his worst two games were 15/6/7 and 22/9/8.

Jordan's '89 series against the Pistons, his worst games: 18/5/9 and 23/2/3.

Point being that even LeBron's stinkers weren't really that stinky, and definitely not that far below Jordan's mid-period, putting-shit-together era.

what was LeBron's FG% in those games?

it's real confirmation bias to characterize jordan's and lebron's "failures" at the same stages in their careers as markedly different

they both failed and worked shit out... lebron's career vis a vis jordan will only be measured by what he does from here on out imo

BEARDS

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/8926010/dallas-mavericks-sport-beards-reach-500

minor footnote that gets brought up because hey guess who never lost in the Finals.

Also, I tend to give "points" to athletes that are super creative, have beautiful games, and/or innovate. Maravich for example gets bumped up higher in the pantheon than he would just based on stats and success. MJ has the edge here over LeBron.

Not totally sure, but unless Bron went like 4/35 or something, it seems like ridic hair-splitting.

Just think that judging two all-timers by how comparing their worst (but still pretty decent) pre-championship playoff games doesn't really prove much? Like, LeBron is demonstrably amazing in the playoffs all things considered, so was Jordan. Jordan wilting against the Pistons held as much validity as LeBron wilting against the Celtics. IE, both look kinda ridiculous.

LOL @ the idea that lebron doesn't get all the points for "innovation"

LeBron's failures involved him personally pissing his pants, MJ's "failures" didn't. I don't know why you would just ignore LeBron's 1st Finals appearance when judging his entire body of work.

saying that "jordan never lost in the finals" gives jordan credit for not even reaching the finals until lebron had done it 3 times

well lebron actually went to the finals in like his 3rd year in the league or whatever but okay

or rather xp OTM J0rdan.

Also, I tend to give "points" to athletes that are super creative, have beautiful games, and/or innovate. Maravich for example gets bumped up higher in the pantheon than he would just based on stats and success. MJ has the edge here over LeBron.

pretty OTM, too, just because LeBron bulling his way through the lane for high% layup/dunks isn't as much fun to watch as Jordan/Maravich doing amazing things. LeBron is just as innovative, but it's more boring innovation, and mostly has to do w/ him being built like a 6'8 linebacker.

go back and watch the last few mins of that game about the Celtics. he stops trying, it's baffling.

hi, Lebron Lost to mavs in what, 7th year in League, when he has 2 perennial all stars w/him

sure. and michael was playing with a hall of famer too and didn't even reach the finals until that same point.

which is why i think their careers will be defined from 1st championship on out. michael got his first and then never lost another one. we'll see if lebron can do the same.

Glad we're all in agreement, Dirk >>>> Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron, although might need confirmation that Dirk didn't piss his pants at some point, will let the everyone else figure that out.

style of play before-after MJ changed more than before-after LeBron. what does LeBron do that is particularly creative? yeah seems like his innovation comes from combo of size/speed/coordination.

well the funny thing is that both dirk and lebron were noted pants pissers until they both figured shit out and went nuclear xp

remember when MJ lost his 1st Finals to Magic and then we all forgot about that and decided to judge him from there on out?

style of play before-after MJ changed more than before-after LeBron. what does LeBron do that is particularly creative? yeah seems like his innovation comes from combo of size/speed/coordination.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:45 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark

just a warning to everyone that tho this might seem like a line of argument that you want to pursue, it will just lead to the same type of discussion we had when granny tried to argue that luol deng was a "more creative scorer" than rajon rondo or w/e that nonsense argument was

hi, Lebron Lost to mavs in what, 7th year in League, when he has 2 perennial all stars w/him
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:43 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK, awesome, so you actually don't understand that having a top-heavy team bodes very ill for 'ship chances / you're willing to define a whole player's career on one bad 4th Q. against a championship team even though basically all other evidence suggests that LeBron is an amazing playoffs basketball player.