Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (five years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (five years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (five years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (five years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (five years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (five years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (five years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (five years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (five years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (five years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (five years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (five years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (five years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (five years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (five years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (five years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (five years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (five years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (five years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (five years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (five years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPuNAaMZ5w

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (five years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (five years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (five years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (five years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (five years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (five years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (five years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (five years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszjSeK_F5Q&feature=related

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (five years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (five years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (five years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (five years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (five years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (five years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (five years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (five years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (five years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (five years ago) Permalink

http://images.wikia.com/logopedia/images/6/63/Bobs1.jpg

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (five years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (five years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (five years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (five years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (five years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (five years ago) Permalink

http://kotaku.com/underwhelming-gay-romance-options-in-mass-effect-andro-1793677330

Since it was released, Andromeda has been criticized about how it handles gay romance options, particularly for male characters. On neoGAF, Reddit, unofficial BioWare forums, and on Twitter, there are hundreds of pages of complaints, with many people accusing BioWare of treating gay romance as an “afterthought.”

1staethyr, Monday, 27 March 2017 21:14 (three months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

http://www.polygon.com/2017/4/20/15369210/palmer-luckey-trump-donation

sigh/lol

Nhex, Thursday, 20 April 2017 15:23 (three months ago) Permalink

so that's allowed here?

duped and used by my worst Miss U (President Keyes), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:14 (three months ago) Permalink

imho no. please let's finish phasing out "aspie" on ILX.

long dark poptart of the rodeo (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:16 (three months ago) Permalink

For reals, thought that was over before I went away so I could have a comeback

El Tomboto, Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:29 (three months ago) Permalink

all I really want to do is point at that post, point at the thread title, solemnly post "IRONY", then slowly fade into the background as the soundtrack crescendos with an ominous synth swell

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:30 (three months ago) Permalink

you are of course all correct - apologies

years of immersion in the seduction community (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:32 (three months ago) Permalink

(the interesting thing about all of this is an argument I'm half-remembering from years ago where a bunch of neurotypical people were arguing that "aspie" was offensive and several posters on the spectrum were arguing "no, actually we like that name" and I was too confused/bemused by the whole thing to comment/participate aside from deciding that if someone was going to get offended if I used that word, I was better off not using it)

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:34 (three months ago) Permalink

appreciate it, bg. my big sister has asperger's so it's something that's come to strike a particular chord with me. not gonna put myself on a pedestal - it did not jump out to me in the years between when the word started circulating and when she found her diagnosis. a failure of my own empathic instincts and training for sure.

long dark poptart of the rodeo (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:46 (three months ago) Permalink

chicken/egg situation there, lacking empathy makes it difficult to understand why it's a bad term, and people who qualify under that same umbrella often lack empathy

a landlocked exclave (mh 😏), Thursday, 20 April 2017 16:48 (three months ago) Permalink

been working to get it out of my vocab irl and online tbh
and yes, i'm a bit ocd/spectrum-y myself so mh otm

Bobson Dugnutt (ulysses), Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:19 (three months ago) Permalink

anyway, you guys are missing the big pull-quote there:

Oculus co-founder Palmer Luckey donated $100,000 to President Trump’s inaugural celebrations through a shell company seemingly named after a time-traveling vehicle from role-playing game Chrono Trigger.

Bobson Dugnutt (ulysses), Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:49 (three months ago) Permalink

I don't think any of that is particularly surprising, tbh

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:52 (three months ago) Permalink

SPINAL FUNCTION

Bobson Dugnutt (ulysses), Thursday, 20 April 2017 17:53 (three months ago) Permalink

it's surprising that it happened in actual reality

ZEAL PALACE CORP

Nhex, Thursday, 20 April 2017 18:27 (three months ago) Permalink

not really, it's 2017 and these fuckers are seemingly everywhere. mostly because they're too vocal and the internet is omnipresent

a landlocked exclave (mh 😏), Thursday, 20 April 2017 19:02 (three months ago) Permalink

Yeah, like I don't know how you can interact with gaming culture at large (or have followed the bitcoin saga, or watched any portion of the shenanigans that fuel Silicon Valley) and be surprised at this.

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Thursday, 20 April 2017 19:17 (three months ago) Permalink

but then again I've also been saying that comments sections are a bellwether for the country at large for years now so maybe I've just jaded myself into expecting shit like this and every instance of it is confirmation bias

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Thursday, 20 April 2017 19:19 (three months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

So, I read Lindy West's fantastic Shrill yesterday, and I strongly recommend it for any number of reasons. But I thought of this thread because she discusses at length the backlash to her taking the position that rape jokes are generally not funny, and that stand-up comedy's male protestations of free speech and "equal opportunity offender"-ism mask and trivialize real harm in precisely the way patriarchal culture at large wants to minimize and erase rape and the experience of survivors (thus, such jokes can't even claim to be transgressive or shocking, not that that would be an excuse anyway). This all went down in 2013, a year before Gamergate, and the tactics, tone and avenues of the harassment campaign are all identical. I wouldn't be the first to connect the two sagas, but it did help turn some light bulbs on for me - at several points upthread I was most interested, in terms of armchair internet discourse analysis, in parsing out how GamerGate might show a particular translation of general misogyny through the particular tropes and life experiences of gamernerds.

I still don't think that's a dead end insofar as it might help in developing strategies to interrupt and redirect gamernerd culture in the long run. West writes hopefully about how teenaged stand-up comedy nerds might just maybe think about this issue differently when from the minute they're getting interested in the form, their heroes are willing to come out and say that rape jokes arent' funny --- reminded me of my reflection somewhere upthread that the anonymous writers of Usenet group FAQs probably helped shape my 12- and 13-year-old sense of how you're supposed to behave in a community generally and to interact with people you can't see specifically. But, seeing obvious patterns that line up between Gamergate and non-gamernerd developments otherwise identical in substances does make me think that the more useful common denominator is the language, behavior and values inculcated in white male culture generally and white male internet culture specifically. Again not a staggering revelation but put another way, I think the thread title question isn't wrong in its assumptions, but may be giving other forms of media a little too much credit.

✓ (Doctor Casino), Sunday, 14 May 2017 17:52 (two months ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

A review of Angela Nagle's new book about alt right gamergator schmucks

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/kill-all-normies-the-alt-right-s-new-turn-1.3104338

Bio-Digital Jezza (kingfish), Tuesday, 6 June 2017 18:40 (one month ago) Permalink

good read - need to pick up a copy of her book

he's also fouled up with NON-FAT (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 6 June 2017 19:32 (one month ago) Permalink

No thanks I'm good. https://t.co/91yChTVLDs

— namechanging cunt (@UnburntWitch) June 12, 2017

Notch acting like a stand-up guy as ever.

AlanSmithee, Monday, 12 June 2017 05:05 (one month ago) Permalink

I am truth and freedom, you are a witless pawn of evil. https://t.co/xgW8VV5lJC

— Notch (@notch) June 12, 2017

qualx, Monday, 12 June 2017 05:10 (one month ago) Permalink

lonely shut-in + misogyny + social media + billions of dollars = disaster

alcohol aficionado zane lamprey (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 12 June 2017 09:59 (one month ago) Permalink

nationalise the videogames industry imo, all that money is not good for the people who are good at making games

alcohol aficionado zane lamprey (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 12 June 2017 09:59 (one month ago) Permalink

Yeah, this weekend is a great time for these fucks to show up again

if people come at you for these not being "recent" enough: pic.twitter.com/2CkHlzy8Z2

— celene 🌙 (@ombrophilia) June 12, 2017

Bio-Digital Jezza (kingfish), Monday, 12 June 2017 16:09 (one month ago) Permalink

Entered the fray and one of these Notch-saving dickheels quoted Latin at me and then accused me of ad hominem because I said they were pathetic, and that his sympathy for Quinn ended when she "monetised" her abuse.

The only comfort is they will never multiply. The genepool ends here.

Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Monday, 12 June 2017 18:52 (one month ago) Permalink

lol @ "monetised her abuse", like that 1. isn't total horseshit as a concept and 2. would even be a problem otherwise. the biggest mystery to me is the mindset of these ppl whose constant resort to bullshit and desperate stuff like this doesn't weaken their faith in the cause

Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 12 June 2017 19:29 (one month ago) Permalink

the bullshit IS the cause, why would it weaken anything?

a butt groove but for feet (DJP), Monday, 12 June 2017 19:30 (one month ago) Permalink

they are feebs. that is why their faith isn't weakened. they are literal wastemen.

Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Monday, 12 June 2017 19:43 (one month ago) Permalink

they are genuinely stupid people who think they are clever because they are good at videogames and because they are unpopular in the real world.

Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Monday, 12 June 2017 19:44 (one month ago) Permalink

are you...ilx subtweeting me?

Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 12 June 2017 20:06 (one month ago) Permalink

haha no!

Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Monday, 12 June 2017 21:13 (one month ago) Permalink

it is possible to be all those things and not be an asshole imo

Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Monday, 12 June 2017 21:13 (one month ago) Permalink

that's unfair, there are plenty of popular, successful people having children who are horrible people

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 12 June 2017 21:14 (one month ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

Nothing particularly new here, but it's good that Polygon continues to call this stuff out, and Sarkeesian is OTM as usual

https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/6/27/15880582/anita-sarkeesian-garbage-human-vidcon-interview

André Ryu (Neil S), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 12:42 (three weeks ago) Permalink

It's very depressing to look back on the original question and realize the answer is "It isn't; racism and sexism is just as acceptable in all of our media, videogame people are just louder about it."

a butt groove but for feet (DJP), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 13:36 (three weeks ago) Permalink

agreed

André Ryu (Neil S), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 13:37 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I like that their arguments against what she's said still amount to "nuh uh, she's wrong. and she was mean to me!"

mh, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 13:40 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Carl Benjamin is a British YouTube personality in his late 30s. He has spoken vituperatively, many times over many years, about Sarkeesian and her work. Some of his videos are thumbnailed with ludicrously Photoshopped imagery of Sarkeesian. At the time of writing, his Twitter page is bannered with a picture of Sarkeesian.

Good god these cretins.

Treeship, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 13:42 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Benjamin is an atheist.[19] He self-identifies politically as centre-left and a classical liberal.[4][20] He has opposed movements that purport to defeat online misogyny, such as the British group 'Reclaim the Internet', which he called "social communism".[3][21]

Benjamin has said that the working class could be harmed by immigration and neo-liberal policies from both the left and right. Benjamin was a vocal supporter of Brexit[22] and described Donald Trump as the "lesser of two evils" compared to Hillary Clinton. Prior to the primary election of Clinton as the United States Democratic Party candidate, Benjamin stated he would have preferred Bernie Sanders over Clinton or Trump.[23] Along with Trump, Benjamin has endorsed other right wing politicians such as Marine Le Pen.[24]

Fuck this chode. He should self-identify as a chode.

Shanty Brunch (stevie), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 14:10 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I feel like the idea these dudes have no natural positions and just claim the opposite position of whatever their targets believe is a little overblown, but imo it's more true than false

the people individually targeting Sarkeesian like this dude really seem like the kids on a playground who run up and punch a girl on the arm because they want attention, but have no idea why or how to do so positively

mh, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 14:14 (three weeks ago) Permalink

perhaps the most depressing part is where it turns out he makes $60K/year doing this.

﴿→ ☺ (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 14:16 (three weeks ago) Permalink

oh god, the article didn't mention his idiotic online handle (thankfully) and I realized who he is

yeah this guy is not very bright

mh, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 14:21 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah me too - I am surprised he stayed anonymous so long when clearly he wants to be admired - presumably

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 19:27 (three weeks ago) Permalink

bah - presumably he waited until he could summon legions on anyone who bothered him in real life.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 28 June 2017 19:29 (three weeks ago) Permalink

the fact that two of these moldy diaper versions of human beings make 8k a fucking month via patreon to keep doing this crap makes me sick

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 20:54 (three weeks ago) Permalink

the phrase is "diaper drinkers" TM whiney

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Wednesday, 28 June 2017 22:52 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I think I heard it from j4son from Alternative Press originally

Sutcliffe Juugin' (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 29 June 2017 00:38 (three weeks ago) Permalink


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