Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (five years ago) Permalink

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (five years ago) Permalink

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (five years ago) Permalink

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (five years ago) Permalink

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (five years ago) Permalink

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (five years ago) Permalink

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (five years ago) Permalink

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (five years ago) Permalink

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (five years ago) Permalink

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (five years ago) Permalink

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (five years ago) Permalink

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (five years ago) Permalink

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (five years ago) Permalink

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (five years ago) Permalink

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (five years ago) Permalink

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (five years ago) Permalink

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (five years ago) Permalink

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (five years ago) Permalink

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (five years ago) Permalink

theyre not?

Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (five years ago) Permalink

mario racist against turtles?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (five years ago) Permalink

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPuNAaMZ5w

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (five years ago) Permalink

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (five years ago) Permalink

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (five years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (five years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (five years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (five years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (five years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (five years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (five years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszjSeK_F5Q&feature=related

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (five years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (five years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (five years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (five years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (five years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (five years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (five years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (five years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (five years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (five years ago) Permalink

http://images.wikia.com/logopedia/images/6/63/Bobs1.jpg

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (five years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (five years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (five years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (five years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (five years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (five years ago) Permalink

I've always found that rule bizarre

Number None, Monday, 23 October 2017 18:43 (two months ago) Permalink

same here. one of the reasons ilx is best, we try to minimize dupe threads and kill stickies almost altogether

Nhex, Monday, 23 October 2017 19:38 (two months ago) Permalink

Scrolling through long ilx threads can be hell to be honest, but I do like seeing the history of posts on smaller ones

abcfsk, Monday, 23 October 2017 19:52 (two months ago) Permalink

ILX is really the perfected internet, there was nowhere to go but down

I just didn't know how FAR down

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 23 October 2017 20:07 (two months ago) Permalink

game forums/blogs i used to read: gaming world (rip), selectbutton.net, the tigsource forums, freeindiegam.es. A few other smaller blogs like zero feedback. Now only salt world. and freem.jp and some russian dev forum. but games are dead so

But I read this news and I'm like, what the hell is neogaf?

bamcquern, Monday, 23 October 2017 21:07 (two months ago) Permalink

Perhaps, but I'd wish instead we could give people a second chance? Or at least accept that when people are teenagers/YA's they say dumb stuff (which 100% of them) which cannot be carried after the person forever. Which is *not* to dismiss his remarks, at all, but the greediness in the search to nail people doesn't sit well with me either.

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 October 2017 21:12 (two months ago) Permalink

Oops, wrong thread (or is it?)

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 October 2017 21:13 (two months ago) Permalink

The "new neogaf" or "neo neogaf" if you will, Resetera, is live, although registration is initially done in waves https://www.resetera.com/

Some former neogaf people and some others are running it, mostly neogaf users flocking over there right now. Should be the place to migrate to.

Malka (the guy implicated) has opened up neogaf again as a games-only forum, doubling down on his assholery and even checking people's personal messages to censor links to the new place. lol. That place is dead to any sensible user.

abcfsk, Thursday, 26 October 2017 09:25 (two months ago) Permalink

"doubling down on assholery" feels like the big trend for 2017

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 26 October 2017 09:36 (two months ago) Permalink

I guess it's in the nature of assholes to do this, and now they have a detourned language of victimhood to help them on their way

pulled pork state of mind (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 26 October 2017 10:15 (two months ago) Permalink

fess up, who got into resetera

Nhex, Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:08 (two months ago) Permalink

I got in, via a former gaf community

abcfsk, Thursday, 26 October 2017 19:36 (two months ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

Pod of relevance:
-

https://www.no-cartridge.net/?name=2017-11-03_ep52.mp3

No Cartridge Audio - Episode 52: Better Solidarity: Misogyny, Games, the Left, and Beyond with Christina @Squierzz and Emma @surfbordt

We're lucky enough to have Christina @squierzz and Emma @surfbordt on the show to discuss the recently explosive issue of sexual harassment and misogyny, a topic relevant to gaming and beyond. Absolutely important episode.
-

Google Murray Blockchain (kingfish), Thursday, 9 November 2017 19:45 (two months ago) Permalink

first, this game, secondly, that kotaku is giving it publicity. the screenshot alone is o_O

https://i.imgur.com/Zrnvipc.png

Karl Malone, Monday, 20 November 2017 21:13 (one month ago) Permalink

Kotaku's old Japan correspondent Brian Ashcraft was one of the most transparent creepy pervs I have ever read.

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:03 (one month ago) Permalink

Literally every other story he wrote could fit under the heading "Things Brian came across while looking for things to masturbate to"

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:04 (one month ago) Permalink

*Kotaku’s current Japan correspondent

.oO (silby), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:05 (one month ago) Permalink

yeah that dude is the reason i never look at kotaku

It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes. (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:11 (one month ago) Permalink

hahahaha omg i cannot believe he is still there

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:19 (one month ago) Permalink

general rule of thumb is if you ever write the phrase "things get... sexy" you should have your computer taken away from you
oh great see now someone is taking my computer aw

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Tuesday, 21 November 2017 00:09 (one month ago) Permalink

haha. has Ashcroft ever pretended to not be a creep, tbf?

Nhex, Tuesday, 21 November 2017 00:52 (one month ago) Permalink

"mein kraft"

About 40,400 results (0.40 seconds)

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 1 December 2017 13:07 (one month ago) Permalink

Jesus

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-12-07-google-play-launches-change-the-game-diversity-initiative

The survey also pointed to male gamers as a contributing factor. 25% of men surveyed agreed with the statement, "I would spend more time playing mobile games if I knew I was playing with or against players of my own gender," compared to just 10% of women. And while that 10% figure for women was roughly unchanged regardless of how much they played, among the most dedicated male mobile gamers (those who play 10 hours or more a week), 47% preferred to play exclusively with other men. Those preferences naturally produce an exclusionary atmosphere that makes women feel less welcome in the community, they said.

El Tomboto, Sunday, 10 December 2017 17:31 (one month ago) Permalink

that is just... so fkn weird. and so fkn easy to believe. but still so fkn weird.

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Monday, 11 December 2017 03:00 (one month ago) Permalink

surprised the number for women is so low, given what playing games w boys is like

difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 03:20 (one month ago) Permalink

I'm not that surprised actually. The way women compete with each other can be pretty brutal!

Nhex, Monday, 11 December 2017 04:30 (one month ago) Permalink

that... was not my takeaway

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Monday, 11 December 2017 04:49 (one month ago) Permalink

I think Nhex may have chosen one of the more awkward possible ways to convey the sentiment that “it is not surprising that women are not intimidated by competing or playing with men, considering how competitive women can be with each other”

El Tomboto, Monday, 11 December 2017 05:16 (one month ago) Permalink

This is also weird because isnt one of the sexist-git arguments about how many women gamers there are, is "no they just play mobile games, and those dont count!".

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 11 December 2017 05:23 (one month ago) Permalink

One quibble with that finding: I'm not sure that this statement is well-phrased:

"I would spend more time playing mobile games if I knew I was playing with or against players of my own gender"

It's ambiguous between "only players of my own gender" and "at least some players of my own gender". It's not clear that the 25%/47% are all saying that they would prefer to play exclusively with men.

jmm, Monday, 11 December 2017 05:47 (one month ago) Permalink

thanks tomboto - i was sorta trying to get at that, you said it better

Nhex, Monday, 11 December 2017 06:41 (one month ago) Permalink

yeah, sorry if i was unnecessarily snarky there; i know you well enough to read that as somewhat ill put and not from a place of evil

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Monday, 11 December 2017 06:50 (one month ago) Permalink

i didn't mean that they're intimidatingly competitive i meant that they hate women

difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 December 2017 08:09 (one month ago) Permalink

"I realized Milo could connect with these kids right away," Bannon told Green. "You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever and then get turned onto politics and Trump." ~ Steve Bannon on Milo/Breitbart's use of #GamerGate to boost Trump.

— Erik Kain (@erikkain) December 13, 2017

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Thursday, 14 December 2017 21:39 (one month ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

i don't think this story quite fits the thread and yet i don't know where to put it

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Sunday, 31 December 2017 09:25 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Ongoing U.S Police Brutality and Corruption Discussion Thread

Nhex, Sunday, 31 December 2017 09:55 (two weeks ago) Permalink

lmao

mag gerwig! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 5 January 2018 17:47 (two weeks ago) Permalink

actually more of a chuckle

mag gerwig! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 5 January 2018 17:47 (two weeks ago) Permalink

the obsession with thigh gap has inadvertently revolutionized the concept of the butt

Karl Malone, Friday, 5 January 2018 17:55 (two weeks ago) Permalink

asses: how do they work

Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Friday, 5 January 2018 17:56 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Filed to: FINE ART

not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 January 2018 17:57 (two weeks ago) Permalink

the texture detail looks like a mattress - on purpose?

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 5 January 2018 18:38 (two weeks ago) Permalink

ban kotaku

pee-wee and the power men (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 5 January 2018 19:01 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Meanwhile his male characters are desperately in need of adequate thigh clearance.

jmm, Friday, 5 January 2018 19:10 (two weeks ago) Permalink

what a crepe

"Taste's very strange!" (stevie), Saturday, 6 January 2018 08:16 (one week ago) Permalink

Filed To: FINE ARSE

how's life, Saturday, 6 January 2018 22:18 (one week ago) Permalink

bingo

not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 6 January 2018 22:24 (one week ago) Permalink

even without the problematic thigh gap issue all of those character designs are terrible and embarrassing

Joan Digimon (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 6 January 2018 22:25 (one week ago) Permalink


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