Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi

i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)

some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.

do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?

i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking

xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in

the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.

i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc

it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...

-demographics.
-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.

was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady

to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.

combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew

A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.

For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).

xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway

some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc

xp oh god WoW haha

how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7urpZRUNuGiOSBZiA0meTLKruJ8IIZQBNX-3kdzmdf2SDZmCO9ZhRbJcB

I mean... come on

actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.

Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.

nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.

have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.

theyre not?

mario racist against turtles?

well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are

also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPuNAaMZ5w

copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt

i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?

― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)

okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7jF8_badV4

lol gg then

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

the Mario Kart one is also insane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zszjSeK_F5Q&feature=related

"So long, gay Bowser!"

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

http://images.wikia.com/logopedia/images/6/63/Bobs1.jpg

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

Great essay.

That's an exceptionally heavy essay and very well written and compassionate as well. I have learned (too late, in one instance) that it's very good practice to stay far away from people who seem to have nothing but negative shit to say about their exes, or their former close friends.

@ JimD, I could type all day about my thoughts on this, but I don't have much luck communicating effectively my thoughts on this topic in forums. It's more of a conversation. In general, though, you're right, I'm not generally critical of the people who engage in call-outs, I am critical of the mechanism itself. (I say this, too, as somebody who has engaged in a call out, and found the experience to be exhausting, professionally harmful, and ineffective.) I don't think "callouts" generally have a good track record for helping survivors heal, or holding the accused accountable. Certainly, on social media, it's become more of a circus-of-bullying than anything even tangentially related to social justice.

Game publisher Nicalis, successful for smash hits like Cave Story and Binding of Isaac, has a dark side. A Kotaku investigation reveals employee exploitation, mismanagement, and a whole lot of workplace racism from founder Tyrone Rodriguez. My latest: https://t.co/S6U8RghwOO pic.twitter.com/btXZmWPPu8

— Jason Schreier (@jasonschreier) September 12, 2019

yikes

"please enjoy the comedy racism of Tyrone Rodriguez"

that guy & nicalis in general has always been extremely shady

yeh not surprised that terribly run company is run by a terrible person

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/style/women-gaming-streaming-harassment-sexism-twitch.html

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/06/streamers-call-for-one-day-twitch-boycott-amid-harassment-allegations/

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-07-10-interplay-silent-on-earthworm-jim-developers-racist-homophobic-remarks

No surprise that he's still a piece of garbage.

one of several original Earthworm Jim creators returning to work on a new exclusive entry in the series for the upcoming Intellivision Amico console

huh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R2CRuQNBzk

Finally, cornhole the way YOU want it

surely GenXSys would've been the better name

roid rage

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-08-19-ex-rocksteady-writer-asks-for-name-to-be-left-off-suicide-squad-credits

https://www.wired.com/story/retro-gaming-violent-tragedy-rudy-ferretti/

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-08-30-ubisoft-pulls-black-lives-matter-raised-fist-from-new-tom-clancy-game-following-backlash

Ubisoft pulls Black Lives Matter raised fist from new Tom Clancy game following backlash
Admits it was "insensitive and harmful"

Doesn't explain why they chose to go with the harmful image in the first place. They really can't claim ignorance to the symbolism of a raised black fist.

they can replace it with a facepalm

shocked that a Tom Clancy adaptation could even be insensitive or harmful, what has the world come to?

this is. a real good thread pic.twitter.com/X0zcL7oTmE

— Nunki (@blodhundur) October 20, 2020

https://kotaku.com/for-the-streamer-from-the-last-of-us-bunny-meme-virali-1846183478

She’s amazing!

If you need another reason to avoid anything related to Harry Potter: https://kotaku.com/hogwarts-legacy-lead-designer-used-to-run-anti-social-j-1846316222

this is just hands down the funniest image ive seen in a while. intel is making automated bleep software and im howling at the backend pic.twitter.com/w4fRq9qYIX

— bea (@beesmygod_) April 7, 2021

"Just some misogyny and a few slices of apple servant. Perfection."

yeah that is achingly stupid

I am wheezing

https://www.polygon.com/22538276/five-nights-at-freddys-creator-retiring-scott-cawthon-fnaf-new-developer

I have no appreciation for Five Nights at Freddy's so... yep, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Non-casual republicanism not accepted in video games

Hadn't seen this mentioned (the details of the case raised by the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing can be pretty harrowing tbh)

https://kotaku.com/the-activision-blizzard-lawsuit-fallout-is-what-women-h-1847350882

The cherry on the cake is who put out the "nothing to see here" statement

*squints* wait the Bush-era torture lady is an exec at Activision? https://t.co/fiOJ8AnOIl

— 10,000 Motivated Rats (@bombsfall) July 23, 2021

https://www.niemanlab.org/2021/07/female-video-game-journalists-on-what-to-do-when-the-mob-comes-for-you/

https://kotaku.com/over-1-000-activision-blizzard-employees-sign-letter-co-1847364340

https://kotaku.com/back-4-blood-beta-players-think-they-hear-zombies-yelli-1847443163

I mean

https://kotaku.com/boyfriend-dungeon-is-being-subjected-to-tumblrs-messies-1847506425

there's a lot going on in this article, some of it tangential to this thread, i think, some of it not. some of it has to do with Fan Service stuff, and what Fans are entitled to. but also some of it is about how to respond to games where the professor has the hots for a student, or vice versa.

I have a headache now

it's just another flavor of reactionary gamer harrassment campaign against women and queer creators, this time from people who claim to be progressive

xp

i know exactly what you mean lol

i think where i come down on this is that i am

anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-

https://kotaku.com/boyfriend-dungeon-is-being-subjected-to-tumblrs-messies-1847506425

there's a lot going on in this article, some of it tangential to this thread, i think, some of it not. some of it has to do with Fan Service stuff, and what Fans are entitled to. but also some of it is about how to respond to games where the professor has the hots for a student, or vice versa.

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 18 August 2021 16:13 (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this seemed very much to be assuming a thing that is huge in all anglophone culture is actually a product of the specific corner of anglophone culture the writer grew up in to the point i decided to stop reading it before i also got a headache

Just when you think that Activision/Blizzard can't be more of a cluster than it already is: https://kotaku.com/bobby-kotick-actually-wrote-fran-townsends-deranged-co-1848069983

Uh.

https://www.fanbyte.com/news/activision-inexplicably-introduces-tool-to-rate-character-diversity-metrics/

the classic 'try so hard to be woke you loop back around to phrenology'

https://www.pcgamer.com/doom-co-creator-john-carmack-is-headlining-a-toxic-and-proud-sci-fi-convention-that-rails-against-woke-propaganda/

https://kotaku.com/sweet-baby-inc-consulting-games-alan-wake-2-dei-1851312428

The users of that Discord are some of the most pathetic people on the internet

Coverage and (derisive) commentary from the Western Kabuki podcast: https://westernkabuki.podbean.com/e/gamergate-15/

I know that ILG has been kind of hibernating for the last year on a lot of AAA releases but I've seen some talk elsewhere about the discourse surrounding Stellar Blade, namely that the blatant fanservice and objectification of the main character has gotten a pass because reviewers, at least on the surface, focus on the mechanics/visual performance. I haven't done an exhaustive survey of reviews but I don't think I've seen anyone say more than "yeah, just ignore the jiggle physics, it's a fun game," and as a consequence diminish how regressive its depictions of women are, and that this represents a significant backwards step. (I kind of think the "horny on main" phenomenon might explain why some (male) reviewers are choosing to overlook this.) What do folks think?

I think you've basically covered it. Almost every review takes issue with or makes note of the sexualized outfit and perspective, but notes that the rest of the game essentially does nothing to add to or subtract from that depiction. It's not otherwise a horny game apart from the extremely horny visual depiction.

My understanding is that the character is specifically modeled based on Shin Jae-eun's body fwiw.

China being weird: https://www.polygon.com/news/441563/black-myth-wukong-streamer-restrictions-feminist-propaganda