Civilization VI

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i was reading a preview of VI the other day and it seemed like a nice incremental improvement on V (which i liked a lot). one of the more noticeable changes is that workers will complete tile improvements immediately rather than over the course of several turns, and that after a set amount of tile improvements they'll disappear. seemed like a nice way to streamline the mid-to-late game

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 June 2016 22:36 (two years ago) Permalink

hell, it's a nice way to speed up the early game. Also interested in the combined arms unit stacking and to see what lessons they brought from After Earth

How Butch, I mean (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 3 June 2016 23:07 (two years ago) Permalink

my biggest hope is that they fix multiplayer. i had a beautiful 8-player game going on with a bunch of my friends, and it was a complete fucking blast...until about 50 turns in, when every turn took at least 5 minutes to load and it started crashing so often that it became impossible to play. but while it was working, it was some of the most fun i've ever had playing videogames.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 June 2016 23:10 (two years ago) Permalink

and take it from me, a guy who has a LOT of fun playing videogames

*winks at camera 2*

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 June 2016 23:10 (two years ago) Permalink

the lead designer for this one oversaw the expansions for civ5, which came close to salvaging it, so i am tentatively interested

le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Friday, 3 June 2016 23:32 (two years ago) Permalink

i didnt really care for brave new world - trade routes in particular just seemed so ham-fisted and poorly integrated into game play and it made the game very easy imo

fwiw the fan-made multiplayer for the og civ is really good. its probably the best multiplayer xp ive had w/ civ

( ^_^) (Lamp), Saturday, 4 June 2016 00:03 (two years ago) Permalink

i still play civ 2 every once in a while

i don't really want a challenge, tho -- i just like building it

mookieproof, Saturday, 4 June 2016 00:07 (two years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

Watching a guy play this on Twitch. I think maybe tap-to-farm tablet games (incl. Anno?) are catching up, except instead of spending $$$ on premium farming swag, you pay for it all up front and then there's a frisson of strategy / trade-offs built in to Civ. IMHO I would totally pay premium mobile dollars for a Tiny Pixel Tower People - Civ mashup.

Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Sunday, 2 October 2016 19:17 (two years ago) Permalink

having never played any tablet games idk how similar the gameplay is but it has certainly borrowed the cartoon style. it seems like they're resolving the less satisfying elements by copying their own success: unstacking cities as they did with units in V; turning culture into another research tree; having religious conflict take place on the map as with military units. the government card system, new builders, trade and combined arms all look promising. if it makes the game more about adapting to the contingencies of your situation rather than imposing a generic playstyle then it will be good. I'm keen, anyway

ogmor, Monday, 10 October 2016 08:35 (two years ago) Permalink

from what i've seen, 6 looks really good -- still not used to the more cartoony graphics, but whatevs

i'm hoping they port this to mac around the same time as the pc release

i've not played any civs (or any games) in a really long time, maybe over 7 years? but really excited about this new one

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 10 October 2016 18:47 (two years ago) Permalink

cannot wait for this - mac version already in the works

Mordy, Monday, 10 October 2016 18:51 (two years ago) Permalink

i know but no release date yet

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 10 October 2016 18:56 (two years ago) Permalink

i like the art style a lot (i think) -- thought civ5 was weirdly ugly and monotonous and am really taken by the way in 6's screenshots fog-of-warred land looks like a drawing on a map.

i didnt really care for brave new world - trade routes in particular just seemed so ham-fisted and poorly integrated into game play and it made the game very easy imo

agree that much of it felt pasted atop mechanics it maybe would rather have changed (tho the game was already trivially easy, because the ai couldn't play it), but that's why i'm optimistic about its designer making a civ from scratch. haven't kept up with its features because of a weird sense of spoilage but

turning culture into another research tree; having religious conflict take place on the map as with military units

sounds promising because it sounds like it reduces a thing i hated about civ5, that everything is a giant global variable:

a lot of the new mechanics are just new numbers tho. those big ugly numbers that add to themselves endlessly. i read a negative review of the original civ5 that said "huge numbers perch at the top of the screen like crows" and i can never forget that image when i play. it's not a very elegant game in some ways. the new diplomatic stuff tho is way fun: being able to spend the ~20 turns before a congress sending diplomats to capitals and bargaining for delegates and counting votes. it's more robust than SMAC actually. more of those kinds of numbers please, less "you have 3765 culture out of 4221."

― """""""""""""stalin""""""""""" (difficult listening hour), Saturday, July 13, 2013 8:45 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

whatever, fuck this, played 4 today for the first time in a while and it was balm. ultimately you do nothing in 5 but wait for numbers to accrue, and you can't even give firaxis $5 to make them accrue faster.

― difficult listening hour, Monday, May 5, 2014 4:57 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

happy w anything that makes a physical thing on a map (or even, like, a fluctuating variable! or a set of local variables like civ4's happiness/health) out of what in civ5 was just a thing you had more of every turn. think this is where adaptability to contingencies comes from, too.

i know nothing about russia (difficult listening hour), Monday, 10 October 2016 22:04 (two years ago) Permalink

yes, I think making more of the map is the right way to go. when you say it's trivially easy, do you mean beasting it on deity easy?

ogmor, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 08:16 (two years ago) Permalink

ha no fair cop i didn't play it enough. but feel like anyone who found it very easy on deity in brave new world would have found it easy already. high difficulties gave the comp cheats (making nonmilitary victories particularly harder) but idk that they ever taught it to field armies.

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 08:30 (two years ago) Permalink

yeah it's just buffs for the AI but the higher difficulty levels so end up changing the game a lot, shortening it, the margins becoming so fine, diplomacy is crucial & you have to be very flexible and responsive. but yes the comp is not amazing at unit placement, especially at sea. I generally really liked V but that's at least partly bc I got a lot better at civ playing it.

ogmor, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 09:31 (two years ago) Permalink

i disagree with dlh - part of the reason civ v ended up so easy was because the ratcheted back ai aggression and tinkered with build priorities. i actually think the difference btw deity and immortal or w/e the next lowest difficulty setting was werent that big, at least post g&k. civ v on deity was extremely challenging on release or maybe one patch post-release (i think the one that removed scientist slots from libraries?) where almost every ai went four cities - unit spam - dow you. i remember kinda liking that period because were super map dependent and there were reasons to go both liberty and tradition but it was very punishing. it slowly became the easiest and least interesting civ game as the added more features, none of which obscured the games essential sloth.

ive been watching filthy and marbozir stream some early access games and excited to give civ 6 a try but dont necessarily love some of the balancing theyve done. real test will be playing with higher level ai settings tho

( ^_^) (Lamp), Tuesday, 11 October 2016 19:48 (two years ago) Permalink

oh i defer on the difficulty question then, def don't have exp at a similar level. think we agree abt "the game's essential sloth" tho.

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 19:57 (two years ago) Permalink

the one civ game i can function in turned up all the way (to "transcend" iirc) is alpha centauri. love civ4 but don't play it well.

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:00 (two years ago) Permalink

essential sloth is a nice way of describing it. civ v definitely had a off-putting feeling of inertia about it. i just felt like there were always things i had to do vs what i might've wanted to do so it felt more on rails than previously. idk i think that is partly a change in how i play games too tho, if i am comparing all the way back to say civ 2. haven't really thought about it. i was so excited for v to come out and now my enthusiasm is kind of burned away, although it's not like i really disliked it. hoping i get excited in the coming weeks. for some reason 6 is reminding me of endless legend.

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:05 (two years ago) Permalink

How hard is it to transition from Starcraft to Civ?

calstars, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:05 (two years ago) Permalink

totally different games but if you could learn starcraft there's no reason you couldn't learn civ

Mordy, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:09 (two years ago) Permalink

if you like the idea of civ but are into space and scifi, try out galactic civilizations (II or III). i played II for a bit and it was entertaining. smaller compared to civ, though

civ's learning curve isn't as steep as, say, europa universalis, so you're good. but wait til 6 comes out

F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:16 (two years ago) Permalink

part of what made early civ v so difficult was that the higher-complexity units like naval and air didnt matter because they ai just leveraged its production bonuses to swarm you with swordsmen. also swordsmens power relative to natural city defenses made holding out against an early rush v challenging. i remember some of the og high score guys regularly finishing all their games win or lose before turn 80. none of this is probably particularly good game design but i think they ended up giving players too much time to do these 3-city tradition opens and then turtle up and pursue more optimized builds/unit use and beat the ai.

( ^_^) (Lamp), Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:18 (two years ago) Permalink

or endless space maybe xp

Mordy, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:24 (two years ago) Permalink

my space 4x rec is still master of orion 2, tho i also enjoy getting high enough to be patient with the micromanagement in space empires 4.

starcraft is more like jet dogfighting than it is like a 4x game. all about rapid adaptability and constant rationing of attention. you'll be fine.

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:27 (two years ago) Permalink

(not counting alpha centauri as "space" in the sense of moo and galciv but it is sf and is the best thing ever.)

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 11 October 2016 20:32 (two years ago) Permalink

i think they ended up giving players too much time to do these 3-city tradition opens and then turtle up and pursue more optimized builds/unit use and beat the ai

adding the composite bowman made it so much easier to turtle if you had aggressive neighbours. the diplomacy was easy to exploit too: AIs would start early wars with no clear plan and once their initial wave was repulsed they'd be quick to sue for peace. I did enjoy persuading AIs to attack each other tho & it'll be interesting to see how much these new agendas nerf that

ogmor, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 08:26 (two years ago) Permalink

I had a friend who was heavy into Diety level Civ II, who ended up like a chess grandmaster - the stuff you have to do at the start, a few (dozen) significant moves, the great brow furrows, an impressed nod, then close it down and start again.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 12 October 2016 23:23 (two years ago) Permalink

i've got 80 dollars in my pocket and it's rainy af outside and this game isn't out for mac

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 21 October 2016 19:05 (two years ago) Permalink

I've got two twenties and two tens in my wallet and I was afraid they'd be there til next April

calstars, Friday, 21 October 2016 20:19 (two years ago) Permalink

I followed a Dealzon link and got it for $48 USD from GMG. Here we go!

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Saturday, 22 October 2016 02:57 (two years ago) Permalink

i want to play this so bad

Mordy, Saturday, 22 October 2016 04:12 (two years ago) Permalink

Hey, Sean Bean is the announcer in this one!

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Saturday, 22 October 2016 07:49 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm stuck waiting for the Mac version too. Apparently they're promising to roll it out quicker than they usually do.

Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 22 October 2016 13:27 (two years ago) Permalink

Will become increasingly more useful over time, no doubt:

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Sunday, 23 October 2016 21:33 (two years ago) Permalink

So Team Liquid has officially hired a pro Civ 6 player, I look forward to this because at least it isn't Hearthstone eSports

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 03:12 (two years ago) Permalink

is team liquid moving into civ? does civ even have competitive multiplayer? why would a civ 6 player be useful for an LOL team?

Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 03:56 (two years ago) Permalink

Well I didn't make it up

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 04:21 (two years ago) Permalink

oh don't misunderstand - i think competitive civ 6 is a fantastic idea. just had no idea it existed (and acc to that link apparently this will be the first tournament so kinda it doesn't yet)

Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 04:25 (two years ago) Permalink


Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:02 (two years ago) Permalink

Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:03 (two years ago) Permalink


F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:04 (two years ago) Permalink


Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:04 (two years ago) Permalink

Mordy, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:04 (two years ago) Permalink


should just leave work and play this all day

thanks man

F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:08 (two years ago) Permalink

dang, looks like it requires capitan or sierra.

it's for the best, i probably should not be allowed to play a new Civ until i get a job.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 25 October 2016 20:54 (two years ago) Permalink

this is the only game i have been fantasizing about playing

F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 25 October 2016 21:25 (two years ago) Permalink

I can't even get into this until my move is done... And then...

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 25 October 2016 23:58 (two years ago) Permalink

ya getting that feeling too

i kinda rushed through it and i'm only on turn 100 or something

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:47 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm amazed people are able to play "quick" installments of this game!

Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:07 (two years ago) Permalink

o i'm not done with it

quick games usually take me about 20-24 hours i believe

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:12 (two years ago) Permalink

they have done away with expansion penalties? as frustrating as those have been to play with they have seemed essential after spamming cities being way op in early civ versions

Roberto Spiralli, Thursday, 27 October 2016 19:09 (two years ago) Permalink

it seems like it?

Mordy, Thursday, 27 October 2016 19:10 (two years ago) Permalink

the cost of districts, science and culture all scale I think. the diplomacy seems like the clunkiest area so far but the underlying mechanics behind it are more interesting/sophisticated

ogmor, Thursday, 27 October 2016 22:34 (two years ago) Permalink

Come on, dammit, where's that patch

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Saturday, 5 November 2016 03:09 (two years ago) Permalink

yeah -- u have any specific complaints?

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Saturday, 5 November 2016 16:33 (two years ago) Permalink

Balancing and AI bits, mainly. As a game, this far exceeds what vanilla Civ V was right out of the gate.

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Sunday, 6 November 2016 06:25 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm right on the border conditions of Civ VI's hardware requirements. Is Civ VI manageable in some minimal graphics mode?

Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 6 November 2016 10:23 (two years ago) Permalink

as long as you don't mind missing out on the leader animations I think you'll be fine

I'm not sure what I'd change balance-wise yet. some of the civs seem obviously better/worse but that's always the case. some of the AI diplomacy decisions/warmonger stuff esp with joint wars maybe

ogmor, Sunday, 6 November 2016 12:15 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm playing on a technically unsupported machine (2012 pre-Retina MBP), but it's been perfectly playable on low settings. Very stable, very little lag.

Millsner, Sunday, 6 November 2016 14:14 (two years ago) Permalink

i like the idea of scout barbarians alerting camp barbarians to attack but in practice it just becomes busy work. i still think there shd be a late-game version of barbarians where u have to protect them in the way ppl leave the deep amazon tribes alone

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Sunday, 6 November 2016 22:39 (two years ago) Permalink

Love that idea

Allen (etaeoe), Sunday, 6 November 2016 22:44 (two years ago) Permalink

ya that is a pretty cool idea

and if you kill them you get minus foreign policy points or your relationship with other leaders goes down

anyway, still haven't finished the first game i started

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 7 November 2016 19:58 (two years ago) Permalink

(only played it the one time sadly)

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 7 November 2016 19:58 (two years ago) Permalink

Is this a good starting version of Civ for someone who's never played before?

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 00:11 (two years ago) Permalink

yeah- it's a really good version and it's not like they're canonical so you don't need to know what happened in the first 5 games. i think most ppl consider IV the gold standard tho by the end of the expansions V was excellent and II and III both probably seem a little outdated but were fantastic in their day. even 1 was a great game.

Mordy, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 00:22 (two years ago) Permalink

I love this alternate universe where the Civ games are canonical, like Fallout or something

Newbies to the series just go "oh huh chariots, are these any good"

Veterans who remember Civ XX say "OH SHIT THE CHARIOTS ARE BACK IN THIS ONE"

Serious fans jump on the Internet to explain to each other how the chariots mean Gandhi is the Demiurge

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 04:52 (two years ago) Permalink

plot of alpha centauri def makes no sense if u don't know what happened in civ

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 05:26 (two years ago) Permalink

'bout fuckin' time

Also, found a bug/exploit where I can con any leader into giving me dosh for any resource I offer, even if they initially don't want it.

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Friday, 18 November 2016 08:28 (two years ago) Permalink

Who wants to purchase my 2xCD copy of Civ II off me? still in good condition! i think!

(rocketcat) 🚀🐱 👑🐟 (kingfish), Friday, 18 November 2016 08:28 (two years ago) Permalink

Added UI to show the next tile a city will grow to.
Reduced the effectiveness of cavalry production policies.
Units may no longer be deleted when they are damaged.
Deleting a unit no longer provides gold.

lots of necessary fixes there, and the AI changes all look sensible

the early game is much tougher in VI but mid-late game seems easier to me

ogmor, Friday, 18 November 2016 09:23 (two years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

wld love to be able to execute foreign spies tbrr

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 9 December 2016 21:39 (two years ago) Permalink

Check out crusader kings 2

Mordy, Friday, 9 December 2016 22:00 (two years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

how did this hold up? have ppl been enjoying it?

Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 20 February 2017 12:27 (one year ago) Permalink

Lifelong Civ fan. I like it and have sunk a few dozen hours into the game, but I still have some mixed feelings about it.

The biggest innovation, unstacked cities, just seems to exacerbate the map congestion issues that came with 5's one-unit-per-tile mechanic. (Did we need even more encouragement to be fussy about city placement?) Splitting tech and culture into separate research trees is neat, though the advances themselves tend to feel a bit bland and inconsequential by mid-game. Late game still a bit of a slog. Overall pace of building and expansion feels a bit too slow. Combat AI is inept.

I'll pick it up again whenever the next big round of DLC hits.

Millsner, Monday, 20 February 2017 14:33 (one year ago) Permalink

thank you. not quite a ringing endorsement. i am v much on the fence about whether to bother.

Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 20 February 2017 14:56 (one year ago) Permalink

it's not such a huge leap forward that it seems essential - i'm curious to see what they do in the expansions. i think one problem is that we live in a paradox world now and simplistic 4x's no longer really cut it (especially when it's just another iteration of a series we've played 5 times already). also it feels like they borrowed a lot from eternal legend - but not quite as interesting?

Mordy, Monday, 20 February 2017 15:49 (one year ago) Permalink

i think it's good. religion could stand to be nerfed a little bit -- if you aren't going for religious victory there still has to be a certain level of religious protectionism which takes time and effort. conquest is really the only victory condition you can go all-in

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Monday, 20 February 2017 16:59 (one year ago) Permalink

i like it tho.

ein Sexmonster (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Monday, 20 February 2017 16:59 (one year ago) Permalink

i found dealing w/ thousands of acolyte spam units to be annoying + tedious tbph

Mordy, Monday, 20 February 2017 16:59 (one year ago) Permalink

nine months pass...

i love this game right now. started playing multiplayer with friends, really fun keeping an eye on what everyone's up to and unpredictable into the late game

ogmor, Monday, 11 December 2017 12:40 (one year ago) Permalink

three months pass...

The Digital Antiquarian articles are giving me the yen to go back in.

I really underplayed Civ V - stuck with IV, pure comfort food. Should I go back to fully expanded V or spring for VI during a sale? Doesn't seem to be much in it from this thread, and I think I've already got a complete V in my Steam library.

woof, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 16:45 (eight months ago) Permalink

sometime last year i was thinking about buying VI and decided to get the complete expansion pack for V instead. almost an entirely different game to the launch version. think i will be happy picking up any new civ games about 3 years late from this point on.

Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 17:06 (eight months ago) Permalink

the only reason to buy a game new these days is multiplayer, right?

ziggy the ginhead (rushomancy), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 17:52 (eight months ago) Permalink

civ 6 has so many little improvements. there are still problems with the AI but the ages, events, governors and loyalty system are all interesting and work well

ogmor, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 18:09 (eight months ago) Permalink

Reckon I’ll get to know v. Don’t think I’ve played the expansions at all (I assume I bought them while they were on sale and I was drunk).

See you in 2020 or so Civ VI.

woof, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 18:25 (eight months ago) Permalink

eh I'm not in love with civ6. don't rush out to get it until its on sale, imo

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 18:51 (eight months ago) Permalink

I used to love Civ 2 and I have a 12 year old with a modest 2010 iMac - which version should I look out for, to give her some Civ fun?

startled macropod (MatthewK), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20:34 (eight months ago) Permalink

V is v good with the expansions and should run ok on your rig

Mordy, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20:42 (eight months ago) Permalink

I think just get her 2!

Screamin' Jay Gould (The Yellow Kid), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 21:40 (eight months ago) Permalink


difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 28 March 2018 22:50 (eight months ago) Permalink

i mean just get 5

YouTube_-_funy_cats.flv (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 23:39 (eight months ago) Permalink

I think just get her 2!

― Screamin' Jay Gould (The Yellow Kid)

i understand the reasoning behind this, but i still think it would fall into the category of

Karl Malone, Thursday, 29 March 2018 05:49 (eight months ago) Permalink

2 and 3 are too old. 5 was a system hog in 2010. 4 lets you zoom out until the map turns into a globe.

the real remain in light dad answer tho, and the correct answer, is alpha centauri.

difficult listening hour, Thursday, 29 March 2018 05:54 (eight months ago) Permalink

i wish my dad would have bought me alpha centauri. still have never played it!

Karl Malone, Thursday, 29 March 2018 05:59 (eight months ago) Permalink

Civ 4 seems like a good way to get your kid into classical music.
Or to have her drop out of school, glued to the screen, muttering "the people are the heroes now, Behemoth pulls the peasants plow" forever and ever.

Wes Brodicus, Thursday, 29 March 2018 06:15 (eight months ago) Permalink

These are beautifully on-point parenting observations - I have already ruined her pop culture currency by showing her endless episodes of The Goodies and The Mighty Boosh, and she's into the new Breeders album.
Civ 4 sounds like it would be graphically interesting but not a resource hog - older versions may look too visually creaky, but then Minecraft and Undertale are good enough for today's hip kids.

startled macropod (MatthewK), Thursday, 29 March 2018 06:36 (eight months ago) Permalink

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