The Nintendo Switch

Also, I couldn't enjoy completing hard areas because the cynic in me didn't feel like there was any reward for beating a single screen. My reaction was like: "yay. I executed button presses correctly and now I have to visualize and execute all over again."

i think this is totally valid. but it also applies to things like sudoku. for me, the fun of a game is in the joy (if any) of using the gameplay mechanics, not the reward that i get for completing it. this is especially true if the "reward" is an update to the very bad story, but also if the reward is a bigger gun that shoots faster or something. or worse, a "reward" that consists of making something that was annoying in the game slightly less annoying (e.g., gaining the ability to run 10% faster)

Interesting, I had the opposite experience from FlopsyDuck re: Celeste and Dark Souls; Celeste always felt like something I could beat if I was tenacious enough, and eventually I did. Whereas Dark Souls I loved to a certain point, but eventually it just wore me down into a state of abject hopelessness. I made it to the Ornstein & Smough fight and threw in the towel then and there. I think this owes at least in part to Celeste having an actual protag character that I wanted to see succeed.

xp "for me, the fun of a game is in the joy (if any) of using the gameplay mechanics, not the reward that i get for completing it."

This is otm. I really let the rigid controls get me down in Celeste. Cardinal dashing was the first thing that really bothered me. Secondly, the gameplay felt like there was only one way from A to B (no fancy walking here). There are probably some good platformers that do this but I could never shake the rigid feeling I was getting from this game.

celeste actually has a lot of different paths you can take, but the options open up more if you're an elite speedrunner celeste-god that can do all the various tricks. i certainly am not that, so i do tend to do the obvious path. but yeah, check out a speedrunning video to see what i mean, it's crazy

binding of isaac is one of my top 5 games all time i played it so much (and even 100%'d the original w/ the expansion inc beating every boss w/ The Lost - but not the remake which i played thoroughly but didn't 100%)

― Mordy, Friday, September 27, 2019 12:31 PM (forty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Then there is the madness of "Eden streaking", which is more of a streamer thing but still...

lol snailing along with Link to the Past ... there is a lot I like in here, but I do encounter some bullshit, like pits you have to avoid, except for the ones you're supposed to jump in, or torches that don't need to be lit except for the ones that do, etc. It's not particularly hard, but boy, I am just not good at solving puzzles, especially when the puzzles aren't really puzzles so much as "do this random thing you've never done before, or this thing the game has previously told you was the wrong thing to do." I'm definitely enjoying it, though I suck so bad at games that even using guides or walkthroughs they take me forever. I can't imagine how long something like this would take me if I didn't have tips or guides.

I tried to get into Binding Of Isaac but the visual aesthetic just doesn't work for me. I grew up on roguelikes that were fast and immediate and ASCII based and Isaac just felt slow and like there was a mandatory tileset that was unappealing

I tried to get into Binding Of Isaac but the visual aesthetic just doesn't work for me.

same. i liked the gameplay but got sick of the whole baby humor thing

Yeah at that point, and in "retro" games in general, there were still mechanics or inconsistencies that they were still figuring out. Modern games do a better job communicating mechanics through design.

Another one I can think of it is the part of the fence you can jump over, which is indicated by ...two little bumps in the grass on the side you can hop from?

Or! Cracked things that sometimes break when you dash into them vs. ones that don't, despite using the same visual crack type. I think they were trying not to spoon feed too much, so that the player could discover via trial and error, but the bumps-mean-fence-hop thing is just bad pixel art/visual communication.

xxp

The unfortunate (seemingly) gothy Jhonen Vasquez inspired poop/gross theme of Binding of Isaac turned me off initially but once you get into the gameplay you tend to forget about the setting and theme.

My Issac skill and knowledge got to a point where I mapped a reset button to my controller because the game starts a lot quicker if you have good items on the first floor.

Until you accidentally smack the reset button halfway through a good run. Used to do that in N+ accidentally.

On that note, you should all play N++, which I think may be the greatest 2d platformer of all time. One of the only games where mastery makes you feel like a god. The only inputs are left, right, and jump. The rest of the complexity comes from the rounded hitbox on your character and the nuances of momentum-based movement. Unbelievable game.

You may remember previous iterations: the N game, and N+.

When I looked up must-have games after I bought my Switch, Binding of Isaac kept coming up, but everything I saw and learned about it made me say N-O.

Again, it's off putting at first, definitely.

I've enjoyed the LttP puzzles. Being stuck usually starts an exploring phase where i find new stuff before finally realizing I always had what I needed to get unstuck.

heart-removing pits in lttp are distinguishable from drop-you-a-level pits by sight

Modern games do a better job communicating mechanics through design.

frequently "design" here means "constant explicit instruction"

That was a problem more-so in the early to mid 00s. I think overall games have been less relentlessly handholding.

yeah there's definitely been a swing back on that this gen

I knew a guy who had "link, listen" as his text message noise on his phone 😑

Holy crap, you want good looking games? I just started Ori and the Blind Forest, and that intro is straight up Bambi (in every sense, sniff).

See, re: Link to the Past. I get the master sword - fine - and go back to rescue the princess, but can't get to her because of the lightning wall. I swipe a few times with my sword, but nothing. So I look up what to do, and yes, I'm supposed to use the sword, but I was swinging in the wrong spot. Fine. So I go back, open the lightning gate, get to the wizard, he makes her vanish and ... that's it. I'm stuck in the room. Fine. But aha! They made a point earlier that the magic mirror will teleport me back to the beginning of any dungeon, which I do. Ta-dah! I'm out. But it turns out, despite being told the mirror can teleport me to the start of dungeons, in this case I was *not* supposed to do that. I was supposed to know I needed to stab a curtain to expose a door. Groan.

hehehe yup. Agahnim exits the room through the top middle of the screen. Otherwise there's no obvious clue at all.

Back in the day I thought that sort of bs was there to sell strategy guides.

super metroid is full of that too, i love the game but if i had played it as a kid rather than later as a teen with internet access i probably would have been frustrated

Yeah, I dunno, I think I might be done with this game.

Well, there are some trickier puzzles coming up, but if you’re tired already, you’ve played (in my opinion) the most rewarding part

It's kinda more annoying than rewarding tbh.

I wish I could set fire to or permanently blow up every roadblock.

It is important to be sure that you in fact enjoy games before endeavoring to play one

Like games are supposed to be boring or annoying and thinking either of those things is the case means you don't like games. It is more important to be sure you are enjoying a game before endeavoring to continue it.

puzzles aren't annoying!

Of course they can be. But beyond that, having to, say, constantly equip a translation book to read signs (rather than just have them automatically translate after you get the book) is for sure annoying. And so is having to constantly navigate or remove regenerating shrubs and rocks to get across the screen faster. Those aren't puzzles, those are just impediments.

I also think a lot of people call things "puzzles" in games that may be puzzling but aren't really puzzles.

i have equipped that book twice, I think. i also immediately rammed the bookshelf when i saw it on top, though, so maybe i'm just a goddamn zelda genius floating through this puzzling zelda life with ease.

Don't you need to equip the book every time you want to read a sign?

And yeah, some people are just better at these games than others, or more experienced. I don't mind challenges in games or things to figure out, but I like the problems that, when you're forced to look up their solutions, make you say "oh!" and not just a deflated, frustrated " ... oh."

super metroid is full of that too, i love the game but if i had played it as a kid rather than later as a teen with internet access i probably would have been frustrated

― ciderpress, Saturday, September 28, 2019 7:22 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

there's a very tricky to find secret wall which you'd never think of reaching unless you knew it was there which is pretty much essential to winning the game. although I think it actually came with a strategy guide at the time so maybe it was in there

Josh otm. I love several Zelda games but I've tried many times over the years to find something to hook me into lttp or justify its placement on best of lists and it's really not there. You want a 10/10 adventure puzzle game on snes, play power soukoban

i'd rate lttp above the NES and DS zeldas but below all the game boy ones

Games are supposed to be boring and annoying!

“Boring” and “interesting” are the same thing

*watches empire, eats popcorn*

they're both words that don't mean anything so by transitivity they mean the same thing

I dunno, this is my first time ever playing LttP, I haven’t had to look up anything strategy or puzzle wise. I think what leads to success is being comfortable with the question, “What happens if...”

and really, it’s about how you want to spend your time. Like, if you’re cool with trying shit out to see how it works, you’re going to have a good time. If you’re going to get annoyed that it isn’t always clear, it’s not for you. Fair enough. I’m cool with not always knowing the next thing I’m supposed to do, I have fun with that.

@josh To some extent, it sounds like you were fucked by trying to look up tips. The game didn’t tell you that you were supposed to use mechanics in certain ways; your faqs did, and you got frustrated when they didn’t work

Also, no one even responded to my post about N++ so I’m going to reiterate: it’s on switch, and I stand by the claim that it is the best 2d platformer of all time

I will say, I don’t think fgti’s assessment was right. They mentioned the difficulty ramps up effortlessly; I didn’t feel that at all. The devs were clever coming up with mechanics that would increase difficulty, but they haven’t aged well.

I can totally see why the game might have been an important evolution.