Rogueism

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Can you repost that picture where the guy says "po-tay-toes"?

(Isn't rogueism kinda maybe about difficulty? So FFT but not FF, which is 'easier'?)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

difficulty has a lot to do with it! nethack etc are like open ended sierra games sometimes

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

I find the FFs from VII onwards unbearably boring. Square have reduced the games to levelling up and pointlessly complicated fighting systems. I guess they're still RPGs in some sense, but not ones I want to play.

― Don King of the Mountain (noodle vague), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

It's funny you say that, because in Sierra games you need to save pretty much every 5 seconds, which I believe runs counter to the anti-save principles of rogueism!
xpost

― Laura H. (laurah), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

I still say that couples who're into cosplay will (eventually) fuck whilst still in costume. It's like furries, only with less plushy action. But with more props.

I gave up on Final Fantasy when I got to the one with the dude who talked like a surfer and wore half-jams.

FYI: voiced by John DiMaggio, who also did Bender from Futurama and Smiling Jack in VTM: Bloodlines.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

Yea, in Nethack you just DIE.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 19:09 (twenty years ago)

One of the most commonly cited (and most amusing) stupid ways to die is to wield a cockatrice corpse while burdened, then fall down a staircase and land on one's own cockatrice corpse.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe you didn't love Space Quest! It had the best and most diverse deaths.

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

yeah, but Sierra was a BITCH about deaths. try to, die. try not to, die.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

I like Sierra Games bro

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Thursday, 13 October 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

i liked most of them, too. the death thing was shitty, tho

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:15 (twenty years ago)

I don't know why there's not more love for Space Quest particularly. Those games own.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

except for their horrid titular puns

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 04:41 (twenty years ago)

SQ never made any claims to high art! It was delightfully low and silly and fun.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 05:42 (twenty years ago)

Dearie, they were going to call SQ5/SQ6: "Where in Corpsman Sandiego is Roger Wilco?"

some rubicons are better off not crossed.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 05:46 (twenty years ago)

No one who liked Space Quest would say that!

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 05:50 (twenty years ago)

And it was Corpsman Santiago.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 05:51 (twenty years ago)

I spend 3 days trying to get SQ3 by staying up late at night and d/ling disk by disk over a 2400 modem 15 years ago. My space quest cred is unquestionable. UNQUESTIONABLE, i tell you!

with that said, Sierra games always lagged Lucasarts.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:07 (twenty years ago)

spent, rather

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:07 (twenty years ago)

The fact remains that you do not like titular puns nor Astro Chicken! J'accuse!

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:11 (twenty years ago)

Sierra did it first.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:12 (twenty years ago)

say, did anybody actually PLAY the console-based LSL game that game out last year?

xpost

no, i do not like HORRID titular puns! we all have our own pun threashold, past which men fear to tread against an insanity not achievable without truly comprehending in full the awesome pervese nature of a Cthulhu-like being.

okay, maybe i've had too many beers tonight...

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:13 (twenty years ago)

Of course they were horrid! That was the joke. Puns are only bad when people sincerely believe that they are funny.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:23 (twenty years ago)

Sierra Games are not Rogueist at all.

100% linear, strategy guide publisher's wet dream, and highly dependent on graphics quality for the experience.

FREQUENT DEATH does not a roguelike make

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 13 October 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

Reblestar Tactical Command looks to be very Rogueist with its line-of-sight feature at least

Portable systems are perfect for rogueist gaming, anyway. Why not more randomly generated maps with hundreds of weird creatures for the GBA/DS?

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

I don't think I understand rogueism.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Rogueism hates stupid, easy fun, preferring austere, complex "fun" that can go horribly bad on you at any moment.

I think rogueism also does not accept level grind, instead, you just go hunting for more and better equipment and figure out better ways to use it.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

Is Resident Evil rogueist? Is Dragon Warrior?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

is Dragon Warrior hardcore or twee?

http://bastardpenguins.com/shtml/pics/dragonwarrior/slime.gif

He wants a hug!

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Dude, that ain't no green slime, he'll fuck you up.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

CONSOLE RPGS ARE NOT ROGUELIKE EXCEPT FOR THAT AWFUL DIRECTIONLESS SNES GAME DRAKKEN OR WHATEVER

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:46 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/PavingMAntis/02.jpg

you control the game with his dangly bits

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/PavingMAntis/01.jpg

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/DragonWarrior/Images/Mon-Droll.gif
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/DragonWarrior/Images/Mon-Magiwyvren.gif
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/DragonWarrior/Images/Mon-Spector.gif
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/DragonWarrior/Images/Mon-Dragonlord-True.gif

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

ghosts with HATS!

we got some HATS now, muthafuckas!

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

So is there an actual contingent of rogueists out there? Jon and Tom, are YOU rogueists?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:52 (twenty years ago)

hey, i just realized that the blue slime controller has a full nintendo-style D-pad, instead of the usual shitty thing that PS2 controllers have. Dreamcast had the same thing. When did Nintendo lose their patent on that, anyway? 1999?

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

Rogueism hates stupid, easy fun, preferring austere, complex "fun" that can go horribly bad on you at any moment.

"Rogueism" as described above doesn't necessarily equal complexity so much as difficulty. Things can be really, really difficult (and frustrating) without being very in depth (Ever played Ghosts N Goblins?). Also, lots of later RPGs were very complex and sophisticated (Materia? Conditional turn-based battle systems?). I'm not saying they were always good in every instance, but they weren't EASY--it's not like you sat around mashing buttons between cutscenes as some people who have never played them imply. Strategy is indispensible in any truly "fun" RPG.

Also, I think level grind is inevitable in RPGs, at least to some extent. 2D RPGs were not immune to this either, though perhaps it is a matter of degree. Wandering around "hunting for more and better equipment" sounds a lot like grind to me, at least when you spend long enough doing it.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 13 October 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

2D RPGs were not immune to this either, though perhaps it is a matter of degree. Wandering around "hunting for more and better equipment" sounds a lot like grind to me, at least when you spend long enough doing it.

yup. soooo many memories of doing this even back in the Ultima days.

i wonder when Lord British is actually going to back a decent american game again, anyway...

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

speaking of rogues & rpgs, did anybody play Divine Divinity? i'm just about to re-install it, having never gotten around to playing it the first time...

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 13 October 2005 23:48 (twenty years ago)

The complicated sophisticated combat system in the later Final Fantasies was bollocks though because you didn't need to use it. For all the Materia manipulation you can still usually select the main attack and win whatever battle you're in, that's what makes the extra complication extra stoopid.

― The Blunnet Boy Wonder (noodle vague), Friday, 14 October 2005 00:00 (twenty years ago)

i think jon is confusing rougelike with nethack, which is its own funny crazy thing.

i mean moria was pretty straightforward.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 October 2005 03:26 (twenty years ago)

Oh shit does anyone remember the PSP game Tobal #1!? I never really played it but my friend did and it had this "adventure" mode that was very rogue-like, with randomly generated dungeons and items that you could collect and (I think) leveling up and stuff (it was more rogue-like than I'm capable of making it sound). It really convinced me that a rogue-like platformer was a viable and potentially awesome idea.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 04:18 (twenty years ago)

oh I see I forgot to mention that (if you're not familiar with it) Tobal was primarily a fighting game, which is what made that adventure mode particularly cool.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 04:19 (twenty years ago)

actually maybe it was "quest mode"

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 04:19 (twenty years ago)

Shit, now that I think about it I guess the more obvious analogue would be Diablo. Why hasn't Diablo been mentioned on this thread yet? I haven't played it for more than an hour, but it seemed very rogue-like to me. It wasn't turn-based and didn't have permadeath (did it?), but other than that it really reminded me of rogue type games.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 05:17 (twenty years ago)

i think Diablo was more a mix of something like Crusader and Gauntlet

― kingfish neopolitan sundae (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 14 October 2005 05:20 (twenty years ago)

I definitely see that, but Diablo (from what I gathered) seemed to be very inventory-oriented, and I've often thought while playing Nethack (assuming Nethack is representative of all rogue-like games in this respect) that the game is way, way more about inventory than anything else. You gotta get your artifact weapon of choice (or that +3 silver sabre), cloak of magic resistance, amulet of reflection, grey dragon scale mail, ascension kit, etc etc. Inventory becomes much more important in allowing you to progress through the game than leveling up or anything, and it seems like Diablo was a lot like that.

I would say the depth with which rogue-like games (again, specifically Nethack) leverage the inventory aspect is much more a part of the identity of the category than anti save game trendencies or permadeath (which are both really the same thing, aren't they?). Sure this is true to some extent of all RPGs of any sort, but while many console RPGs for example assign each character a specific weapon and armor type which have very clear-cut levels of quality (rainbow blade is better than steel is better than copper), and arrive at relatively pre-defined points during the course of the game (you start with the wood sword and never get the steel sword before getting the copper one), the player of a rogue-like game has to develop a deeper understanding of their inventory relative to a lot of other game factors. Part of playing the game is learning not only which armors grant you a better AC, but balancing that against the weight of the armor, special resistances, tendency to rust, stuff like that; and this is true for every single type of item in the game!
(really though, I don't know why we have to talk about "rogue-like". It seems to me that no other rogue-like game comes within leagues of Nethack in any aspect. It's just better than all the rest.)

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 06:02 (twenty years ago)

I take it back! Inventory is really only one specific instance of the randomness of this sort of game! In enemies, in inventory, in geography, what makes a game rogue-like is how fun it is to solve new and unique problems within a world with its own expansive and rigorous game logic.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 14 October 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

I think the Diablo creators were comopletely open about the Nethack debt! (D2 even had a 'hardcore' mode that was permadeath btw) (permadeath pvp action wtf!)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 14 October 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

(really though, I don't know why we have to talk about "rogue-like". It seems to me that no other rogue-like game comes within leagues of Nethack in any aspect. It's just better than all the rest.)

I think Zangband is good and some of the nethack clones are also.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Friday, 14 October 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 134 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

i would happily share my hours played since they are surely fewer than my has-played on WoW, but i cannot!

― Mordy, Friday, 8 March 2013 16:17 (thirteen years ago)

fuck myself forever for ever decrying the non-rogue-iness of this awesome roguelike, btw. I hate this game for existing and hate myself for playing it for two hours this morning

― * (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 8 March 2013 17:29 (thirteen years ago)

i miss this game

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Friday, 8 March 2013 18:20 (thirteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

anyone played brogue? https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/

(now available for ipad! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/brogue/id613921309)

― s.clover, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 02:38 (thirteen years ago)

Oh cool - seems to work okay.

― JCL, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 03:07 (thirteen years ago)

I love Brogue! The most beautiful ASCII game ever!
It's impossible, though

― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 03:21 (thirteen years ago)

one year passes...

just unlocked the godhead in binding of isaac

― Mordy, Sunday, 11 January 2015 03:58 (eleven years ago)

is desert golfing roguist

― celfie tucker 48 (s.clover), Tuesday, 13 January 2015 20:22 (eleven years ago)

if you fail to meet par do you have to start over from the first hole?

― Mordy, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 21:27 (eleven years ago)

lol that is a great concept. someone bang that out pronto. ilx games release #1. can't be hard to procedurally generate golf holes.

― Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 21:41 (eleven years ago)

no but if you fail to meet par you have to live with that _forever_ which seems like the compliment of the same idea

― celfie tucker 48 (s.clover), Tuesday, 13 January 2015 21:55 (eleven years ago)

http://i58.tinypic.com/2nk45sy.png

i've never been prouder

― Mordy, Friday, 16 January 2015 03:22 (eleven years ago)

congrats that is excellent work

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 16 January 2015 03:48 (eleven years ago)

four months pass...

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/22/encrypted-rougelike-release-date/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/15/may/encrypted.png

― Mordy, Friday, 22 May 2015 17:39 (eleven years ago)

Eventually the 'rougelike' misspelling is going to be universal

― demonic mnevice (Jon Lewis), Friday, 22 May 2015 17:44 (eleven years ago)

egad, why would someone make this...

― Nhex, Friday, 22 May 2015 18:23 (eleven years ago)

happy birthday to me just picked up a copy of invisible inc

― Mordy, Thursday, 28 May 2015 21:35 (eleven years ago)

encrypted looks quite gorgeous imo. lol ilx wont let me put the tag in

― ♛ LIL UNIT ♛ (thomp), Friday, 29 May 2015 06:36 (eleven years ago)

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