Rogueism

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CRATES ARE THE ENEMY OF ROGUEISM

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

Hey, I was talking about this like half a thread ago! Didn't mention flight-sims though - OTM.

― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

There's at least one FPS wherein you get shot once and you die, right? Can't remember off the top of my head which one. One of the WWII ones I think. That's pretty Rogueist. Being able to soak up stupid amounts of punishment is one of the things that irks me about FPSs.

― Nöödle Vägue (noodle vague), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

"America's Army"

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

bushido blade?

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

Thinking about it, an FPS where bullets fucked you up realistically would be awesome.

― Nöödle Vägue (noodle vague), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

America's Army OTM

― jw (ex machina), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, America's Army - totally the most roguist FPS. I think Trespasser was going for that sort of thing five or so years ago too, but was way off the money.

― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

Also Bushido Blade otm!

― melton mowbray (adr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Can Rogueism be explained as a preference for simulation-based games over narrative-based games? Does it have anything to do with how fast you can execute a 17 hit combo?

― elmo (allocryptic), Friday, 21 October 2005 01:20 (twenty years ago)

Can Rogueism be explained as a preference for simulation-based games over narrative-based games
It seems like that's where our line of thinking is going, but it just feels so wrong to me! While a certain amount (okay a lot) of inventory shuffling takes place, the game (again, when I'm talking rogue-likes I personally always mean Nethack) feels like a perfect framework for totally free-form narrative. The mechanics of gameplay and the feeling of playing a story are in synch. When you shit your pants and blow a hole in the floor to escape an arch Lich, or light a potion of oil (that was smooth!) and hurl it at a minotaur it feels like you're actually playing a role in some kind of story or narrative. There's none of this twiddly "how can I make my next move the most efficient and perfect execution possible" going on that I associate with simulations.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:34 (twenty years ago)

Well not totally free form, obviously, but a dungeon crawler with such a large amount of objects and creatures who all have such a depth of code behind them that there are a seemingly endless amount of situations you can get into (which is why people are always saying "it seems like the dev team thought of everything!").
Simulations I associate with repetition and rehearsal, whereas rogue-likes are all about rewarding a "real" kind of ingenuity and inventiveness. You never think "Hey, I wonder if I can kill this monster in fewer hits this time than I did last time", but you might often think, like, "gee, this crystal ball is heavy, and I'm all out of projectiles; I wonder if I can throw it at that monster?"

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:43 (twenty years ago)

Preference for own narrative vs someone else's -> FF hatred?

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:54 (twenty years ago)

(sorry you shold probably ignore that, i'm sorta halfheartedly trying to help along a definition of rogueism that isn't actually mine..)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:56 (twenty years ago)

actually that is maybe worth its own thread.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:59 (twenty years ago)

repetition and rehearsal, whereas rogue-likes are all about rewarding a "real" kind of ingenuity and inventiveness

This is what I think, too, and I think Rogueism isn't just about simulation being accurate in the confines of a very small set of circumstances, but letting you find lots of different solutions to the problems in the game. Exploring can take lots of different forms, my idea is that some kind of exploration being allowed (and rewarded) is the key. A simulation that beats you about the head with total "realism" in the context of one complex activity doesn't let you explore jack shit. Gran Turismo is all about whatever kind of garageload of ridiculous vehicles you want to build yourself to drive around whatever tracks you please, within the confines defined by gear ratios, tire wear and $$$$, which is why I put it forward.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 21 October 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

Drakkhen is amazing. You can't do jack shit in that game, you just watch your characters die.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 22 October 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

Hahahahaha dude in case anybody gives a shit somebody actually played through to the end of Drakken:
http://www.world-of-video-games.com/snes/game_endings/drakken.shtml

― TOMBOT, Monday, 24 October 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

see you in Drakken 2

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 24 October 2005 23:56 (twenty years ago)

I have the map of Zebes from Super Metroid on my desktop right now, you cannot tell me this shit isn't somehow "rogueist" even though it's a platform shooter.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 25 October 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

I am playing Bard's Tale!

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 27 October 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

This is crazy! How do I save?? How do I load?

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

thom jesus west (4:48:53 PM): i am naming my next nethack character in yr honor

...

thom jesus west (4:55:14 PM): oh dear. nethack-you just got killed.
thom jesus west (4:55:21 PM): you killed and ate some gnomes first tho.

― :[ (Adrian Langston), Friday, 28 October 2005 01:51 (twenty years ago)

O god this is addictive.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 28 October 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

in what way is the map of zebes rogueist?

I'm not saying it isn't I'm just asking cos I'm not sure I have a clear handle on what rogueism is still but I want to learn

― c7n (Cozen), Friday, 28 October 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Wandering around "hunting for more and better equipment" sounds a lot like grind to me, at least when you spend long enough doing it.

What I though Tom was talking about here is the distinction between, say Kingdom Hearts, where you can wander around the beginning level for two or three days and get to lvl 100 before you start out, and Zelda, where if you don't have the next hot item, no amount of running around hitting things is going to get you past the next dungeon, so get to it! Actually Zelda has an out, it has rupees and things you can buy with them, but before I ever saw it I saw Alundra on the PS2 which was totally hardcore like that, and stunned me when I first realised.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

No game made today past a certain level of complexity can impose Rogueishness on its players: there are always Gamefaqs and knowledge stores like Allakhazam.

Players can always impose rogueishness on a game, through speed runs/initial equipment/etc.

This is humans for you, give them something to do and they'll organize and innovate on it.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Actually I may be talking shit there, I was working based on the understanding that speed runs were rogueist.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

There would be no way to orchestrate a "speed run" of a truly rogueist game.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 2 November 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

three weeks pass...

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 28 November 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)

POKEMON FUSHIGI NO DUNGEON

zing

― TOMBOT, Monday, 28 November 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

i dunno. the whole "randomly generated maps" thing still smacks of the "Lucasfilm Desktop Adventures" shit, where they had crappy Star Wars & Indiana Jones thingies.

Who knows; maybe generation algorithms have improved in 12 years.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 28 November 2005 03:37 (twenty years ago)

Kingfish, have you played nethack?

Also, has anyone found a better interface for nethack -- isometric or 3d? I'm sick of the awful OS X keybindings....

― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Monday, 28 November 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

It's been years, but I've played several different flavors of it. nethack, rogue, and Zangband especially.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 28 November 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

The map generation in nethack leaves a lot to be desired. Why not build way more complex dungeons? Part of me hates automapping/overhead maps FWIW. But totally classic = when ur d00d gets amnesia in nethack.

― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Monday, 28 November 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

there's a necessary logic of nethack tho, innit? that stops you pressing "s" a hunderd times looking for the way out - i.e. you only have to press "s" 25 times or so, and then you can give it up. that's not clear; the rhythm of nethack maps is part of what it does, i think i mean/

― We Are the Dregs of the Motherfucking Earth (noodle vague), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 03:22 (twenty years ago)

The Disgaea "Item World" random dungeon generation was great. Only very occasionally did I come across a completely unbeatable and crappy map (ie the exit hovering in space thirty squares from one's characters).

LucasArts Desktop Adventures roffle

― adam (adam), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 03:47 (twenty years ago)

One of the things about Nethack is that they're very careful never to put you in a position where you're totally geographically stuck. After who knows how many hundreds of hours playing, I don't remember ever being put in a position where there wasn't a move I could make, or the path to the next staircase totally blocked (which in a game as open-ended as nethack has all kinds of implications for behind-the-scenes algorithmic stuff, like boulder generation for example). I suspect there might even be internal map rules that change depending on whether you have a pickaxe or wand of digging or not!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 06:51 (twenty years ago)

I suspect there might even be internal map rules that change depending on whether you have a pickaxe or wand of digging or not!

I think you can polymorph into burrowing monsters.

― 'you' vs. 'radio gnome invisible 3' FITE (ex machina), Tuesday, 29 November 2005 15:39 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

OH RLY

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Friday, 6 January 2006 21:01 (twenty years ago)

three years pass...

http://drgamelove.blogspot.com/2009/06/permanent-death-episode-1-inasupicious.html

― thomp, Sunday, 5 July 2009 13:30 (sixteen years ago)

http://www.above49.ca/2009/06/far-cry-2-on-permanent-death-bandwagon.html
http://bigapple3am.com/2009/06/permanent-death---far-cry-2-part-1.html

― thomp, Sunday, 5 July 2009 13:30 (sixteen years ago)

three years pass...

is pokemonism the opposite of rougeism (i.e. between the possibility of "collecting them all" and the forcing of hard choices which result in vast differences on each playthrough and of which none is clearly "superior"?)
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, November 28, 2005 12:25 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh the innocent days before permadeath pokemon was 'a thing'

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 12:08 (thirteen years ago)

mainly i revive this thread because there wasn't one for ftl

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 12:08 (thirteen years ago)

i have spent like 48 hours playing ftl in the past week

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 12:08 (thirteen years ago)

i hate myself

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 12:08 (thirteen years ago)

The ROGUE-LIKE Thread

but wait - there's permadeath in pokemon now?

― Nhex, Monday, 7 January 2013 13:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Nuzlocke_Challenge

not, like, hard-coded or anything

i couldn't find this because i searched for "roguism" and i couldn't find the other one because i searched for "roguelike", next time i am just going to revive my doomrl thread that no one else posted on

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 13:41 (thirteen years ago)

so FTL is really well balanced except i. you kind of need a teleporter to beat the last boss ii. as soon as you prioritize getting a teleporter you realise it breaks the whole game

and yet now i've realised that instead of having fun i'm trying to get all the achievements and beat it with all of the ships, no discovery any more, efficient runs only, quit on making a mistake, go to the wiki every time i come across a new event, go videogames

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 13:43 (thirteen years ago)

i hate myself

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, January 7, 2013 12:08 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 7 January 2013 13:43 (thirteen years ago)

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