rolling Jericho calls The New Day trap queens 2016

that was one of the worst parts... the crowd noise should be there all broadcast long, other than boos for roman it wasn't there at all

just dead i think. they were into it right at the start, the pops for Owens and Zayn were huge compared to what came later.

They seemed to lose interest during the Styles / Jericho match, for which I lay the blame almost 100% at Jericho's feet. It was a really bad performance from him all round, his one job ought to have been to make Styles look good (and even with the finish that should've still been totally manageable) but he ate the whole thing up and didn't really give Styles any shine at all.

After that the booking decisions got worse and worse - or rather, they were just relentlessly negative - and every time someone (Brock, the women, Sasha in particular) managed to bring them back into it something fucking stupid would happen on the booking side of things to kill off the enthusiasm. you could feel the crowd deflating as the night went on.

videos been surfacing all day on reddit which would indicate that the producers basically turned the crowd mics off during the main-event to ensure that the boos weren't too deafening on the live feed. farce of a show

none of which is to say that it wasn't also great fun, by the end the whole thing had just become surreal. was quite sure when i woke up this morning that I'd dreamt Rocky whipping off his tracksuit

I have no problem with Charlotte winning btw, the triple threat & Flair angle makes it cool, and Sasha, Becky, Bailey & Asuka are going to need to hold this division up for the next 5 years, so waiting with Charlotte is fine for now.

I'm torn tonight whether to continue on to watch the main event. I never watch Once In A Lifetime or its sequel, I figured it just wasn't worth it. I've got some time free tonight and tomorrow morning, should I? Theres a new season of masterchef that looks funner. Or just rewatching nxt.

i wouldn't recommend it but if you know what's happened already it may make it a bit more bearable, watching it live it was a bizarre and agonising thing to see the bad, inexplicable decisions just keep piling up

I also think its worth having a discussion about wrestlemania 8 and 9.

Wrestlemania 8 was beautiful. It saw so many of the great stars of an era all together on one night. A lot of the old guard was bought back to do it, Savage retired a year before, Piper had retired/went to go make They Live/Hogan was thinking of retiring/Jake put over Taker on his way out (he was going to join the booking team until he got fired for being too high iirc?). So nostalgia and experience was important to putting the new lot over, as it was at WM31 with the Bryan IC guys promo, Taker with Bray, Sting and Triple H, even Brock, Cena and Orton facing younger guys. Who the new guys were is important too, as not many talents pools exist as good as those two (for every Shawn, Bret, Sid, Taker and Owen there is Reigns, Rollins, Rusev, Bray and Ambrose) Not too much though, and experience w. new guard ends up with a really great night of wrestling.

Wrestlemania 9 was a pile of faeces wrapped up in a shitty gimmicked venue as if it was something good. Wear a toga, don't notice that Giant Gonzalez can't walk, has no dick and gives up trying to beat Taker and instead coliforms him like a bitch manager. Bret main evented, Vince had no confidence in him, he got bitched out (i've not seen the main event of last night but i presume Roman must feel a bit like Bret did, even if Roman won the title). Shawn lost by countout (similar to Kevin Owens or AJ or New Day etc. all not winning? Wouldn't wanna put over the hot young thing). Perfect v Luger should have been a dream match, instead was boring as fuck (Brock v. Dean). The Taker gimmick match was a fucking mess.

You've lost a ton of your main event (at wm9 it was to steroids and contract issues; at wm32 its injuries and retirements) and been left with a young group who could be something special. You are Vince McMahon. What do you do? Sort it to try and make them the next stars? No? At least get through to make Raw exciting, make a few of them do ok until the next ppv? No? Bitch them out (especially if you can get hogan/attitude era guys to chump them all) and make everything seem worse than it was a couple days ago? Ding ding ding ding.

It wasn't the end of the world then, and some great talent turned it around. But 1995 still hadn't happened. Who the fuck knows what is coming up, all I know is I just wasted 4 hours of my life. It wasn't because of injuries that WM was shit, and WM9 had a good enough group of wrestlers that it could have been fun too.

idk ive been in the pub again but monday to me is knda the weekend so i got drunk and had half assed thoughts.

ok i tried watching the main event and steph cuts a promo about how all hope is dead and fuck you for wanting to thinking something good will happen

and she runs this business and its been shit last night and for months and even years so yeah hope is dead, im just not gonna watch cya steph

to your point regarding the women's match, i'm not sure there's anyone out there who is really angry about Charlotte retaining as a story that exists in a vacuum - in theory the money with Sasha is all gonna be in the chase, I think there's a good chance they drag this out for a long while yet and really do some cool shit with it.

The problem was that the match didn't exist in a vacuum and coming in the middle of all those crappy negative booking decisions, the show desperately needed a big feel-good pick-me-up babyface victory that Sasha winning would've provided. Might not have been the best thing for the long term story but it sure would've helped with the flow of the show.

This Mania did feel very close to WM 9 in terms of inexplicable booking decisions that were seemingly designed to kill off any crowd enthusiasm. But tbf at Wrestlemania 9 there was at least a concerted effort to push newer guys. I mean it's not like Tatanka was an old hand or anything, he was still a hot new thing himself at that point. Him, HBK, Razor, the Steiners, Doink, even Luger going over Perfect was supposed to be an old star making a new one. Bret and Yoko were good choices for the main event that year I think and both new to the scene themselves. Obviously the fuckery with Hogan left a bad taste but I don't think WM9 comes close to this one for the old >>>>>>> young thing.

I mean it's relatively easy to get it, I suppose. Those nostalgia moments where the old guard shit all over the current guys are what Wrestlemania are all about now, it's clear that Vince believes this is what sells tickets (and maybe he's right? 93,000 tickets is very impressive for such a nothing card, after all.

I'm most amazed / dismayed at the way the current crop of guys has been brainwashed into believing (or at least publically declaring) that this treatment is some kind of great honour for them. Like getting hit with a Stone Cold Stunner or a Mandible Claw before quietly exiting stage left is something you should be grateful for. I don't necessarily agree 100% with the way CM Punk handled his exit from the company and there was a certain amount of crybabying happening there but fair play to the guy for being prepared to speak out regarding the part-timer infestation and say "this is dumb as shit and i won't fucking do it. let triple h find someone else to leech off for his top spot at Mania".

i understand why people might say that Punk was in the wrong to complain about e.g. The Rock main-eventing ahead of him in 2013 because that drew such a huge buy-rate and obviously that's the bottom line that most people are interested in. but this year we're not even talking about putting big-name part-timers into the main matches ahead of guys who are always there (well ok we are, but this is no longer the main problem). the old guys aren't even having matches to help build interest in the show now, they're just showing up post-match to bury the current roster and leave again.

the most disappointing thing about aj losing to jericho is the knowledge that i'm going to have to watch at least one more styles/jericho match

i think the thing that baffles me most about the whole show is actually Shane O'mac.

i mean imagine them plucking some guy from the mid-card to set up a Wrestlemania Hell In A Cell match with Undertaker. imagine they film all sorts of vignettes showing him doing a load of MMA and jiu-jitsu training, giving him plenty of mic time every week in a major storyline with Vince McMahon and Taker.

Imagine on the night this hypothetical mid-carder gets 40 minutes of time on the PPV with a specialised entrance and the most spectacular can't-miss HOLY SHIT moment on the show all nicely rehearsed and prepared for him. he gets in the cell with Taker, goes toe-to-toe trading a bunch of faux-MMA shit with him, kicks out of a bunch of finishers and eventually takes his massive stunt bump. He gets to do the whole "won't stay down, so much heart!" bit, gets the respectful embrace of the Taker and then gets wheeled out on a stretcher to a standing ovation while giving the crowd the thumbs up.

Is there any chance whatsoever that this hypothetical mid-carder wouldn't be a solidly established main-event fixture after all that? And they've just proven how easy it is to do it. So why the fuck don't they give these spots to some of the active roster guys?! idgi idgi idgi, it makes my head hurt

lol the disapproval of the fans has changed fate

raw crowd hates roman so much jericho is calling them morons and they're replying with cheers and pro-jericho chants

omg are they going to put the belt on aj tonight???

BOO PEOPLE THEY NORMALLY CHEER CHEER PEOPLE THEY NORMALLY BOO

THEY'RE HAVING A GOOD TIME AND WE GENUINELY APPRECIATE THEM, WE ARE THANKFUL TO THEM FROM THE BOTTOM OF OUR HEARTS *STARTS BLEEDING FROM EARS*

good god why do they have charlotte out cutting a face promo to the raw after wm crowd

shane you suck at this

oh now she's a heel again

how is this different from before

the "women's wrestling" chant was cute until you remember what they were chanting last year

man i am always 100% down for nattie being in the middle of everything

I also think its worth having a discussion about wrestlemania 8 and 9.

You raised a lot of interesting points. I think the comparison is more like WM 18 and 19. 8 & 18 were the last hurrahs of their respective eras, at WM 8 you had 80's stars in prominent matches up and down the card (Jake, Piper, Flair, Savage, Hogan) but it was the very end of their runs as viable main event stars, ditto WM 18 with Austin, Rock, and the NWO. At WM 9 the focus should have been more on the younger guys as you said, they knew that Bret, Shawn, and Taker were the future but you wouldn't know it based on this show because they were all booked horribly. Meanwhile they were hedging their bets with the old guard by pushing Beefcake, Dibiase, and Hogan vs evil foreigner part XXVIII. At WM 19 they were finally figuring out what they had in Brock, Eddie, Benoit, Booker, etc. but still trying to squeeze what they could out of Rock and Austin (who were both all but retired from active competition) and with the gawdawful Hogan vs McMahon feud. But unlike WM 9, talent kind out won out in the end, WM 19 was one of the best ever but the buildup was horrible which is why it had by far the worst buyrate of any of the post-Attitude era Wrestlemanias.

I'm most amazed / dismayed at the way the current crop of guys has been brainwashed into believing (or at least publically declaring) that this treatment is some kind of great honour for them. Like getting hit with a Stone Cold Stunner or a Mandible Claw before quietly exiting stage left is something you should be grateful for.

This is completely true, they think that being part of a "wrestlemania moment" is more important than having a well booked feud and finish to a match on the biggest show of the year.

This ties into the discussion about the women's match, Sasha Banks said in interviews that it was a dream to compete at Mania and she cried seeing her face on banners outside the stadium. Then she got to make a memorable entrance with Snoop and the awesome beyond words Eddie Guerrero tribute ring gear. It's an inexplicably cool moment, there's no doubt about that. But the problem is, why do all that stuff if she's not winning the match? From a wrestling standpoint, you should book the entrance, the costume, the celebs (I know Snoop is also her cousin but still) in order to make her big win as memorable as possible. Of course she can win the title at another time but it won't be as special, and if they want to give her a big win at a future Mania then they've already blown their wad on this year's entrance and it'll be that much harder to make her win mean something.

tl;dr version: don't push the hell out of your babyface stars and then have them lose in the championship match at Mania. It's supposed to be about making stars, not about having "moments". The WWE used to understand this -- Cyndi Lauper didn't accompany Wendi Richter to the ring at WM I to watch her lose the match.

Based on the RAW recaps (I haven't seen the show yet), there's a lot of room for optimism. Most segments featured a debuting NXT star or a recent (within the last year) NXT alum. HHH was never mentioned -- is he taking more creative control over the booking of "his" NXT stars?

Negatives: Shane gets to run RAW after all, so the HIAC match was pointless. Corbin couldn't get a win in his debut against the best JTTS in the company. Styles will be the biggest lame duck challenger to the world title since Bob Holly. He's been trading distraction roll up wins in the midcard for weeks, lost in the supposed blowoff match at Mania against the guy who screwed him, and he's supposed to be a credible challenger? Reigns finally had his Mania coronation after being pushed down everyone's throats for three years, is there any chance in hell he loses in his first defense?

Just finished Raw, it was... interesting.

******** RAW SPOILERS BELOW **********

As Qualx noted upthread, the whole "this crowd is crazy! they're cheering the ones they normally boo and booing the ones they normally cheer! We love it!" thing was staggeringly awful. they wouldn't shut up about it all night and it was so transparent what they were doing. watching as one of the disgruntled multitude was a weird feeling, the way they were hand-waving the dissent away for the casual audience at home. it was kinda like watching an abusive parent acting all disbelieving and reasonable in the face of accusations, making a liar of the abused child in front of the policeman or the school teacher or whoever. the feeling of helplessness and injustice at the brazen shamelessness of the lie. i exaggerate of course but y'know what i mean.

If you don't manage to see anything else I wholeheartedly recommend seeing the Enzo/Cass debut, the crowd here was way more clued in wrt to the schtick than they were at Fastlane and the guys came off as stars as a result. Crowd were participating as enthusiastically as they ever have with New Day. Enzo was little fireball spitting out insults at the Dudleys, immediately established him as one of the better mic workers on the roster. I'm hopeful for them, I think if they can get to a point where every crowd is responding like they were last night then they'll have a big run as a top tag team. One of the few NXT acts that have looked more at home on Raw than NXT.

Obviously totally awesome to see Cesaro back and treated as an important guy, the whole main-event was basically built around him getting his shit in. And he's using the sharpshooter it seems! I'd be absolutely down for him bringing that back as a top-tier main event finisher.

Agree that AJ is a bit of a nothing challenger right now, this very much felt like the company throwing the disgruntled smarts a bone, but like... what's the point? I'm sure it'll be a good match but I don't get what story they can run here. It's not quite face vs face in practice because obviously Reigns is gonna get booed but ito the presentation it'll surely be pitched as face vs face? Seems like a really odd choice that's only gonna get more people pissed off with Reigns when he handily beats the new guy.

Apollo Crews on the main roster.... eh. Fine. I still think he's a bit of a hot nothing but I do see why Vince likes him, he's bound to connect with the young audience. Just don't see him having any hot programs any time soon, presumably the showcase 5 minute tv match is bound to be his lot for the foreseeable, just like in NXT. tbf an Apollo Crews squash stands out more on Raw than on NXT so that's ok as a thing to do for a while. Even if he is squashing Tyler Breeze. Can we just have him back in NXT please? I hope that Triple H sorts that out for him when they inevitably try to let him go.

Vaudevillains on Smackdown.... this one I'm a little concerned about. We'll see, maybe ppl will love the gimmick? I'm worried it'll seem a little bit small-time on the main roster. Pleased for them though, and these changes allow for the freshening up of NXT which is cool.

Oh and Epico and Primo have been repackaged. Again. This time as Puerto Ricans. that seems to be the whole gimmick. if it doesn't lead to the return of Carlito Caribbean Cool then gtfo imo. more vignettes for dudes though, I like that!

I watched some highlights since my last post and you nailed it re: Enzo and Cass. It was the most seamless transition from developmental to RAW that you'll ever see. If the WWE doesn't see them as a money drawing team similar to the '98-'99 New Age Outlaws, they're nuts.

The commentary team though ... ffs. In the Enzo and Cass segment they did jack shit to get them over, unless "these guys are an acquired taste!" counts as faint praise these days. Aren't the Dudleys supposed to be bullying heels? So why isn't the commentary team saying stuff like "they're not intimidated by the Dudleys!"?? You know, standard stuff to put over a team as a threat? Oh, but JBL did say "look at the size of Cass!" which doesn't mean much after years of Great Khali/Big Show "look at the size of them!!!" pushes.

Agree that AJ is a bit of a nothing challenger right now, this very much felt like the company throwing the disgruntled smarts a bone, but like... what's the point? I'm sure it'll be a good match but I don't get what story they can run here. It's not quite face vs face in practice because obviously Reigns is gonna get booed but ito the presentation it'll surely be pitched as face vs face? Seems like a really odd choice that's only gonna get more people pissed off with Reigns when he handily beats the new guy.

Which is why I don't understand why Jericho isn't facing Reigns. It would have justified Jericho's otherwise inexplicable win at Mania, he's not someone they're trying to build for the future so he can eat the loss vs Reigns but a win versus Jericho still means something, and if anyone can work the mic and get people to cheer Reigns, it's him! At Roadblock IN CANADA he got the crowd booing him and cheering American patriot Jack Swagger.

Shane McMahon vs. Vince McMahon:

Vince: EVERYTHING IS GREAT, DAMMIT, STEPHANIE IS THE BEST, I’M GONNA GIVE HER A PIECE OF THE GUTS AGGRO CRAG WITH MY DAD’S NAME ON IT.
[Shane McMahon enters]

Shane: dad I am blackmailing you
Vince: why
Shane: because steph sux and I want all the power, meaning “being GM of Raw”
Vince: how
Shane: a lockbox
Vince: any additional information
Shane: no
Vince: well I guess I am being blackmailed out of power, and since I don’t know how blackmail works there’s a stipulation; I will only accept being blackmailed if you compete in a Hell in a Cell match against The Undertaker at WrestleMania
Shane: sure
Vince: also if Undertaker loses he’s fired, basically
Undertaker: what
Shane: lol u a bitch
Undertaker: YOU ARE THE BITCH
Vince: yes, we are all bitches!

[later]

Undertaker: you know why I will win? I have gloves.
Shane: watch out for my deadly BABY JABS
[baby jabbing]
Undertaker: ARGH WHY DOES THIS HURT ME
[gets put through a table]

[WrestleMania occurs]
Undertaker: THIS IS STILL HURTING, SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS
Shane: I’m great at MMA!
Undertaker: hang on, I need to lie down
Shane: [jumps off Hell in a Cell]
Undertaker: [moves]
Shane: [dies]

[Raw occurs]
Vince: WELL THAT WAS CERTAINLY SOMETHING, WASN’T IT FOLKS
Shane: oh hey just stopped by to say bye, thanks for everything
Vince: F*CK YOU YOU’RE IN CHARGE OF THE SHOW
Shane: what
Vince: [leaves]
Shane: WHAT

*cough cough*

balor wasn't the only head of the bullet club

*cough cough*

notime otm.

balor wasn't the only head of the bullet club

well sure but it might be a bit weird having AJ running with a couple of dudes in t-shirts with "BALOR CLUB" splashed across the front

also thats just a rumour fyi styles.

i fully expect roman to just be big baby face winner, clean, not hearing any xpac heat.

motherfucking cesaro returned and i didn't care to watch it. not only cos lol wm but also lol corbin is a beast who goes to a 50/50 match with ziggler? fuck this shit

i was thinking earlier, way before i saw what happened on raw, that they could salvage all this by summerslam and have a fucking crazy card, full of returning stars like cena, cesaro, rollins, call-ups like bayley, nakamura, balor, joe, and hot fucking feuds like shield stuff or zayn v owens. but eh, its never gonna happen. why even bother caring? someone will tell me if something good happens on raw or ppv, i'll watch lucha underground and nxt and wait patiently for the companies succession to hhh.

wait what did corbin already lose to ziggler?

ohhh idk man, i've been enjoying the shit out of things recently. i mean obviously i luuuurve whining about it all on the internet because i'm a wrestling fan and i have access to a laptop, go figure, but i don't regret staying up till the morning to watch that Mania or anything. the things they do are baffling and frustrating as hell and they could definitely do it all 100x better but that doesn't mean it's not worth watching.

as i said upthread, some things about this Raw were superb (Enzo and Cass, Cesaro), other things were interesting and raised a little intrigue for what comes next (Shane O'Mac, no Authority?, Apollo Crews, Roman Reigns seeming to embrace the hate a little in his promo rather than just ignoring it).

Raw's a pretty easy watch if you just download it i've found. fast forward through all the bits you're not interested in (fuck this Wyatts / League of Nations deal, blech) and you can basically turn it into a pretty reasonable 50 minute wrestling show

xpost to Mordy - nah it wasn't a defeat, it was a double-countout. which tbf didn't come off like your bog standard Raw 50/50 mid-card distraction rollup flash-pinfall finish bullshit - they got counted out and then Corbin lost his shit and wasted Ziggler with an End of Days on the floor. there was no doubt at the end of the segment who looked stronger of the two of them.

yeah it really wasn't 50/50 at all, corbin came out of it looking good. the main event is definitely worth watching too.

my method for watching raw is to have a book to hand, get a bit of reading done during recaps, 20 minute promos, anything featuring the league of nations, etc etc. it makes for fine ambient viewing.

Does anyone know about old school merch or if there is a place to find out about it? I work in vintage clothes and today i got a jcp era ric flair sweater and its sweet.

this thread goes too fast i can't keep up and then i ignore it

catching some invasion attack and just watched kushida/ospreay. ospreay is capable of some amazing things and he might be a great technician but man i just don't buy him. something about his face. great match though.

Invasion Attack is must-see. Great work and gutsy booking up and down the card. Every match on the card felt totally different from the others, and only the heavyweight tag title match failed to deliver.

I loved Kushida vs Ospreay, at least for one night the Ospreay hype is completely deserved.

NJPW's self-reinvention since Wrestle Kingdom is really nothing short of remarkable. The Elite have made ECW throwback brawls seem fresh again, the old farts (Tencozy, Nagata) finally have something worthwhile to do, Goto and Ishii are fresh characters again, LIdJ are on fire and are easily the best faction in wrestling.

Really enjoyed the show; more angles starting/mutating than I'm used to for a New Japan event but that's a good thing.

Also, I thought it was ironic that most were expecting the Tenzan match, etc to drag the show down, but it was the heavyweight tag that did it (don't let the Guerrillas of Destiny in the ring for any longer than 10 minutes, please).

Shame about that bad bump Cody Hall took during the NEVER six-man, though - he's OK it seems but it could've been serious.

THE UNDERDOG FROM THE UNDERGROUND i hate wwe

fuck these branded taglines go back to corny wrestling names

from now on i'm calling sami zayn MR. FABULOUS IV and i'm gonna keep calling him that until it catches on

Nothing happens organically anymore, they figure that without these pre-packaged nicknames and catchphrases, the home viewers won't know which hashtags to use when they talk about RAW on social media.

I'm just glad they nipped that 'wacky line' business in the bud. What jabronis have they got in the writers' room these days?

what an amazing RAW - can shane stay in charge forever plz?

yeah Raw was good again this week. so much good talent on the roster now, all they really need to do is point them at each other and try not to derail them with nonsensical bullshit storylines and the usual aimless booking.

and we have Bullet Club! cool, i guess. how long dya reckon before people work out that this isn't like bringing in Zayn or Styles or Nakamura or whoever and that these guys that we've been hearing so much about are essentially just a decent meat-and-potatoes tag-team who were part of a faction that wore cool t-shirts?

not trying to be a negative nancy or nuthin, these guys are more than capable of having decent 10-15 minute mid-card tag matches and i shall probably enjoy watching them do so over the next few months. but i do wonder how it'll work out for them, especially after the initial push they're presumably gonna get. it's becoming such a formality these days for WWE's big name signings to come in and immediately establish their superworker credentials and have everyone fawning over them. not sure how long Gallows and Anderson will maintain the buzz if they get stuck fighting the Usos or the Lucha Dragons every week for months.

in the interest of full disclosure i should note that while i like AJ Styles and what I saw of Devitt in NJPW, i pretty much loathe the Bullet Club gimmick and I don't understand how that (or this tag team) came to be such a massive thing. way too cute.

Joe vs Nakamura at NXT house shows ... o_o

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12973121_1684649408467942_1503345974181861140_o.jpg

exotic adrian tom. arn, uhhhhh.

it feels that the manager who was born 45 years old is a solid wrestling archetype but only cornette and heyman come immediately to mind, who else is there?

Percy Pringle/Paul Bearer?

Arnold Skaaland, Gary Hart

all good points.

also oops i meant to say 'exotic adrian otm'

considering actually watching the last 2 smackdowns. apparently they've been good and have had things happening on them? and enzo and cass have shown up and it feels weird missing out on them. (oh my god i'm being... drawn...)

ha, ikr? finding myself compelled to watch Raw each week for the first time in years atm