rolling Jericho calls The New Day trap queens 2016

hi maura!

i'm much more casual in my fandom than probably anyone here but i really am hoping that ambrose will get his shot

Speaking of Ambrose--are they really calling his rebound lariat the "Wacky Line"? (Michael Cole called it that at the Rumble, and apparently at least once on Raw, too.) Where does that phrase even come from?

Omg pat patterson is releasing an autobiohraphy

Godd yeah the fuckin' Wacky Liner. Ambrose maybe the most egregious current example of the WWE taking a dude with tremendous upside and fucking them into oblivion with nonsense character shit designed to appeal to idiots. He's really good but he should be amazing. And get rid of those goddamn jeans ffs

Pat Patterson autobio should be fascinating, even with the obligatory WWE official censorship. I mean it'll obviously be missing all the juiciest shit but at the very least it ought to be really interesting when it comes to all of his booking insights

I love Ambrose too. How can you not? He's got an unmistakable ring presence, plus he's the chaotic face the company really needs for that Austin-McMahon dynamic they've been trying so hard to shoehorn Reigns into. Still, my casual fan SO doesn't buy him as a good guy, thinks he's a more natural heel (and I don't necessarily disagree, he was great as the mouthpiece of the Shield). I'm hoping we'll see things develop further when Rollins returns.

Really hate that 'wacky line' thing, though. Ambrose isn't wacky, he's not fuckin' Jerry Lewis!

Ambrose seems like one of those people whose face/heel alignment should be taken entirely case-by-case based on who he's feuding with. Like if you get on his bad side, he'll make sure you regret it, and anyone can get on his bad side at moment's notice because he's nuts.

So if he's feuding with a face you like then you hate him, but when he turns his attention to a heel you hate, you get excited to see how he's going to make the guy miserable. Meanwhile neither his essential character nor his tactics change.

In this hypothetical version of him, his tactics do not ever involved a briefcase rigged to shoot Nickelodeon slime.

Dirty Dean is great, and I totally agree with JRN; his face/heel status is pretty dependent on who he's currently against. He was a great heel "leader" of The SHIELD, he's a good anti-hero face against The Authority currently and he's great against Kevin Owens, who is probably my favorite heel on the main roster.

I was so sure they were calling his rebound lariat "the lunatic's fringe" or something like that. I swear I've heard it called that at least once. Wacky Line sounds like a move from Doink the Clown or Hornswoggle or some other comedy character. I don't know when they're going to pull the trigger and just let Dean off the chain, so to speak. There's so much that they could do with him that they're saving for, seemingly, everyone else.

maybe cole keeps calling it that in an attempt to get him to stop doing it

Mad challops: Ambrose suckz.

He used to be great. But fuck me he is way worse than Roman and the internet needs to belieee dat.

Naaahhh c'mon now - firstly, you are rong as can be!; secondly, I have seen this view espoused in numerous places recently, cannot allow the self-proclamation of challops in this instance.

I will make a concession - his offence suckz. The rebound "lariat" (it's not a lariat but fuck calling it a Wacky Line tbh), the diving push, even the Dirty Deeds - it is all basically terrible and that is something that he needs to work out before he can be a top guy. But that's fine y'know, I mean CM Punk had got some of the shittiest offence known to man and look how far he got.

But aside from that, most everything else that is wrong with the guy right now is the fault of the writing/booking team imo. He is one of the most interesting and naturally charismatic performers they have - he cuts great promos and, like Kevin Owens, he also has the "intangibles" in the ring - the mannerisms, the facial expressions (when he isn't doing that stupid gurning thing in aid of this stupid fckin character), the ability to tell a story through movement and selling.

They just aren't let him do any of this stuff properly because it's all being suborned right now in service of the fckin "Lunatic Fringe" wacky madman angle. Soooo dumb, if they booked him right (imo something more akin to early Stone Cold / Loose Cannon Brian Pillman would be right - craziness manifests as menace and aggression rather than fckin "hilarious" "pranks") I think he could go a loooong way for them.

As for "way worse than Roman" , well sure, but then so are most guys. I will refrain posting another lengthy screed about naturally talented dudes being shafted by "creative", whatever that means, but only because it's too early in the morning. Roman is great, his booking sucks, and on and on it goes

Also it's been mentioned before but is there a more pernicious spot in wrestling today than what they try and pass off as a suicide dive now - the aforementioned "diving push"?

Like, I'm not saying we need to go back to the days of Jericho plugging Benoit in the skull with an unprotected chair shot as he flew head-first out of the ring (this was an amazing spot btw and i wonder if the fact that i can watch it without the slightest queasiness is an indictment of my humanity? idk), but this diving push thing looks absolutely awful and they're using it in every single match now.

A suicide dive used to be up there with the shooting star press as the coolest spot in wrestling and you're ruining it, you fucks! It's not even a case of "if you're not going to do it properly, don't do it at all" (it's partly that), more just, like, stop doing the same shitty spots in every fckin match! jeez. thanks a lot Daniel Bryan.

suicide dive is still the coolest spot in wrestling when it's done in a temple and called the arrow from the depths of hell

yeh king cuerno looks like he could take down a brick wall with that thing.

i liked ambrose's old dirty deeds, a mystery why they changed it to a routine double-underhook ddt (maybe it was seen as too much of a neck bump?). i'm not sure that limp offence really matters in wwe (cena's done alright for someone whose entire moveset looks terrible), but what does annoy me is that offence that should have just been part of ambrose's unpredictable character has just become schtick. this guy did an elbow drop onto a standing opponent and a weird bounce off the middle rope into a clothesline, he's so crazy! oh, he's done that twice every match for the last year? hm.

the wacky line was terrible before it was called the wacky line. the only way to make it work is if he can figure out how to consistently do it "outta nowhere"

that fenix corkscrew splash to the outside of the ring in the first ep of this season was O_O i watched it over and over

I am bored of it being creative sucks. Kevin owens is booked by the same people, like sheamus was being booked by the same people as bryan. Anything i used to like about ambrose has been stripped away, hell the one thing i do like still sucks (cos of booking here i presume- that hes like romans drinking buddy but cant come help when hes outnumbered? Gr8 friend).

Also ziggler and the usos ruined all spots, not just the suicide dive. Why is any move bar lesnars suplexes worth any damn when THE guy of the past twenty years superkick finisher now gets used 17 times a minute?

I am bored of it being creative sucks. Kevin owens is booked by the same people, like sheamus was being booked by the same people as bryan.

ah here now, that's not any kind of argument at all. what are we saying then, that booking/writing one dude well leads to the logical end-point that they must also be booking/writing everyone else well? Kevin Owens is not awesome because he's booked to be awesome (this hasn't been the case since he initially burst onto the scene vs Cena imo), he's awesome because his talent is so extravagant that he overcomes the mediocre 50/50 booking that they continually attempt to level him with. it is easier for him to work around the writing than certain others, Ambrose amongst them, bcuz he is not lumbered with a ridiculous character that he then has to try and get over, they've pretty much just left him alone.

perhaps it is all invented dirt-sheet hack-rag bullshit but i am inclined to believe the recent stories stating that originally the Royal Rumble deal was gonna be for Ambrose to toss out Owens and Styles himself, and it was Owens that pushed to get this changed to what we eventually saw on the show. encouraging if true to know that he has the balls to stand up to whoever it is coming up with the original ideas (as did the Shield in days gone by, which by all accounts was essential to them getting over to the extent they did) and also that he has enough cachet now with the "powers that be" that they'll take his suggestions on board.

these are murky waters tbf, we need to be careful how words like "creative" and "booking" are thrown around (and i include myself in this). if by "booking" we mean how strong they are made to look then Ambrose rn is doing fine, he's winning matches and getting loads of tv and ppv time in important spots. but the way they are writing the character is hideous and is totally preventing him from hitting the heights that he could

Also ziggler and the usos ruined all spots

Ziggler is an interesting case. He was extremely over with a certain kind of fan for a very long time and it seems like that good-will has just evaporated. Is it a staleness thing, after nearly 7 years of the same act? Is it that the fans got bored of waiting for the company to pull the trigger on a guy who spent so long on the cusp of bigger things? Is it that he came through in a period where shit was actually p. fuckin dire for the fans from a smarky in-ring perspective and that the subsequent rise of NXT and the emergence of Bryan, Rollins, Owens, Neville, Balor etc. has made him obsolete?

idk, probably all of those. but possibly more than anyone i think Dolph would benefit from taking a year-long sabbatical to go and work some things out and let everyone forget about him for a while

can we talk more about lucha underground? the Ivelisse / Mil Muertes title match last week was perfectly executed and i loved the Puma / Pentagon Jr tag situation this week (and the weirdness of Vampiro commenting on Pentagon Jr). also the anecdotes/storytelling is so wonderfully stylized. oh, and now justin gabriel is in the promotion! (his fight w Mack was wonderful - i love Mack since i watched his falls count anywhere match w/ Cage at Ultima Lucha - just brutal)

It really is nuts how overused certain moves are. I remember back when seeing any kind of dive to the outside on TV was kind of a special thing--WCW cruiserweights would do it sometimes, and that was basically it. Now there are about five on every episode of Raw.

And by my count the WWE roster currently has no fewer than SIX wrestlers regularly doing some version of the superkick: ADR, Kevin Owens, Ziggler, Rusev, and both Usos. IIRC Luke Harper does it sometimes too.

I sometimes fantasize about being some backstage big shot in WWE and issuing directives about movesets and other recurring match tropes. Ambrose is now allowed to do the rebound lariat on TV once every four months, maximum. Only one wrestler is allowed to use the superkick (draw straws for it or something). Finisher kickouts are banned for one year. Etc.

Sami Zayns finisher is a kick too

but it's not a superkick, it's a hell-OOVA kick. why do they pronounce "helluva" like that? to make it sound more like "yakuza"?

idk superkick inflation is out of control now, just let everyone do superkicks, it's not a finisher in 2016

i've never understood the insistence that other people's finishers should always be finishers. in kayfabe, if ziggler can't get a pinfall from a superkick, it's because he just isn't as good at it as hbk. sweet chin music is a superkick but a superkick isn't sweet chin music.

I always assumed the helluva pronunciation was just cheekiness

xpost

idk superkick inflation is out of control now, just let everyone do superkicks, it's not a finisher in 2016

yeah and that isn't a problem at all unless you're a full-on old-skool nut like Jim Cornette or Stone Cold Steve Austin, time was back in the '70s that a regular run-of-the-mill clothesline was enough to finish all but the very biggest matches***, these things change. it's like Jake Roberts' DDT or Harley Race's vertical suplex, moves don't stay protected forever. As long as there are some protected moves that are sold more than others I think we'll be ok. but if you've got a special gripe wrt to super-kicks, take it up w/ the Young Bucks imo

***wait wait what do you mean that NJPW's top star finishes all his matches with a clothesline?!!?!?!?)

bull dempsey apparently done at wwe

louis and lefort gone too. I actually liked louis's bald bond villain gimmick

To be clear, my problem is that the superkick isn't treated like a finisher. That's fine. It's just that a move loses some of its impact if it's being done all over the place by every other wrestler on the show. And unlike, say, a hip toss, a superkick looks like a move that should do real damage, so it's more of a shame if the audience gets at all desensitized to it.

Plus I generally think diversity in movesets helps wrestlers establish distinctive styles, which makes everything more interesting.

I actually do feel similarly about clotheslines. I've always like how the lariat is treated as an upper-tier move in Japan. (And it actually bothers me a little that for as long as I've been watching wrestling, close-fist punches to the head have been treated as no big deal. But that's REALLY a lost cause.)

JRN otm.

I get that Michaels was a special entity on himself. But fuck me what move actually means anything? Cos what is wrong with Michaels just fucking kicking you in the face, or Okada lariating you in the face, or Lesnar throwing you like a motherfucker and it MEANING something? If everyone does every move its just like yeah whatever. Sami Zayn's finisher isn't just the helluva kick, cos he needs to suplex you first into a turnbuckle to get you all fucked up first. Idk, maybe dudes should think about *why* a bit more. Cos I love the Young Bucks moveset but the Usos can get fucked, cos at least I feel like the Young Bucks understand their superkick partyyyy.

Er, my last post should start "To be clear, my problem ISN'T that the superkick isn't treated like a finisher." Kind of a bummer to start a sentence with "to be clear" and then immediately assert the opposite of what I think.

U started writing a big old response on my phone about protected moves but instead deleted it and decided to say: rainmaker is so much more than a lariat. The twist. The flip. It's like a violent tango. I love the rainmaker.

I*

Is it that he came through in a period where shit was actually p. fuckin dire for the fans from a smarky in-ring perspective and that the subsequent rise of NXT and the emergence of Bryan, Rollins, Owens, Neville, Balor etc. has made him obsolete?

This. He was a guy they could plug into a main event once in a while for a change of pace, but once better and fresher guys made the roster, he was done at the top of the card. That's not to say that he couldn't have been programmed as a main event guy with the right push behind him -- he could have easily done Rollins' part as the Authority's chosen one.

Ambrose's moveset is fine for the role he has as the plucky IC champ. Maybe that's why the WWE doesn't see him as a main event guy. Then again, their top star of the last decade uses a glorified fireman's carry as a finisher, and the NXT women's champion finishes matches with a belly to belly suplex, which hadn't been used as a credible finisher since the 90's. Point being, if you put a move over, it's gets over.

I've been trying to avoid NXT spoilers, but it's all but impossible. The card at Takeover:Dallas is going to crush whatever they manage to scrape together for Mania.

i feel that there was a chance to capitalise on ziggler after he was the survivor series sole survivor but then they did... whatever the absolute opposite of capitalising is

wasn't that meant to be Roman's spot as well? I thought Ziggler was just shoved in there as a body, they clearly didn't have any intention of using him properly

forever and always

http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling3/kotdm15/listsleeze.html

Gary Hart busted the Tommy Rich 'story' in his book; it was just common-or-garden homophobia in his view.

a good third of those seem like common-or-garden homophobia...

Oh yeah, quite a few are racist or sexist too. It just fascinates me that wrestling was once a collection of the craziest, drug addled psychopathic bodybuilders in modern history.

Yeah I only read the first few and I was like 'blah'. I much prefer stories like The Ryback popping a Cialis to impress Brock Lesnar.

bryan's retired :'''''(

:(

i'm with ahoyboy on that urban myths thing btw, of course you've gotta allow for a lot of tedious gay-bashing bullshit, it was compiled on a wrestling forum! but beyond that, a lot of that stuff is just what wrestling is!

the pre-modern days of pro-rasslin' when it was this collection of assorted oddballs and dead-end weirdos who'd kind of fallen into this bizarre lifestyle after getting out of jail or not making it as smalltime crooks or nightclub bouncers or w/e, the rapacious sleaziness and dishonesty and backstabbing and tragedy - all of this shit is basically what makes the industry so fascinating!

i would definitely be interested in reading some serious scholarly work on the fucked up history of pro-rasslin'

surprising myself with how put out that Danielson news makes me, i'm not normally at all bothered by retirements or like, celebrity deaths or whatever. i've been toying with the idea of watching the entire Danielson-McGuinness feud from start to finish.

is there any wrestler of his status and ability more entirely and justifiably beloved than Bryan Danielson? like ever? Eddie, perhaps? I was thinking about Bret but even Bret, as much as I love him, has got a few too many homophobic/womanising black marks on his record to qualify.

Owen was amazing obv. but for all his brilliance he was never at the level that Bryan is/was

I will wait till i've seen Raw to say anything because lol its wrestling and everyones injured, but yeah it seems likely to be true and really sucks. He was the greatest professional wrestler, I loved everything he did and to see his true peak at the top of the mountain end with two terribly timed injuries really is unfortunate.

probably isn't but bryan's announcement could be a work?