no boys allowed in the room!!!!

I have aged out of the 40s thread, so, uh, in what way?

Health, money, confidence, social, what?

I would venture to ask - are the 40s the point in heterosexual cismens’ lives where they realise they are not actually going to be the patriarchs in patriarchy? (Cause it seems like middle age is when cis white men start looking for someone to blame for that.)

While for non-cis-men, the 40s are where the hyperscrutiny drops off and the invisibility kicks in, which almost feels like a relief?

OK this is getting too cynical, even for me. I’m having a bad reaction to the covid vaccine I had yesterday so I’m feeling pretty flattened and less willing to entertain more positive possibilities than usual?

Lots of x-posts coz phone typing takes forever.

Sorry, maybe this isn’t a conversation for me today...

Another thing that has intensified in my 40s although it was well on track before is that I wish for the company of men less and less. I am honestly happiest surrounded by and in community with women.

xp So...maybe?

I'm 50, and I can see pretty much only a shit future with small points of success in front of me.

While for non-cis-men, the 40s are where the hyperscrutiny drops off and the invisibility kicks in, which almost feels like a relief?

I think this is definitely part of it -- or maybe, the hyperscrutiny bothers us less and we become more comfortable in our own bodies (or adapt our bodies to what will make us comfortable) and it's easier to block it out.

I think I'm having a "good day" (I have days that are very not good) ... or trying to psych myself up for taking on stressful stuff that I have been procrastinating work-wise.

xp For me, women were always alien creatures. (Until I realized that I wasn't really one.) Fortunately, I was always smart enough to not get into all of the "not like other girls" nonsense.

For most of my 20s and 30s, I underperformed in relation to my peers, economically & professionally. I guess I accepted early that I wouldn't "make it" or be financially secure or meet any of the goals of adulthood that my parents had & that I always expected to. It probably lowered my standards to the point where I was just happy for things to stop being actively bad. Anyway, I'm still a fuck-up but I mind it a little less.

Also I don't feel any longer than I'm being a "bad" at my chosen gender performance by not having those things. I can just let it ride a lot more.

Happy for your good days, s! Go out there and slay the stressful stuff. I also have to send a bunch of emails that I've been avoiding.

OK I peeked in the thread to see what this was about. Cancer and death, oh my.

I don't know. So much good stuff happened in my 40s, even though the start of my 40s was possibly one of the worst periods of my life, hitting rock bottom showed the way out? Like:

-autism diagnosis which completely rearranged my life into a shape that made SO MUCH more sense, and explained so much of what hadn't been working before
-an employer that was willing to make concessions in my working environment that enabled me to keep a job for the longest period of my life (6 years and counting!) and created some stability in financial and living-space and material conditions
-a good therapist who was able to use the complete collapse of my sexual life, to persuade me to open the "box of gender and sexuality stuff" which I had been sitting on for 20 years, for fear the demons would get out. (They are not demons punishing you, they are freeing your soul!)

So compared to the emotional instability and financial precarity of my 20s and 30s, holy hell were my 40s great.

I had far, far fewer friends at the end of my 40s than the start, but the friendships I do have are much healthier, and have much stronger boundaries and are more mutually supportive. It's not that I have more confidence - it's more that I give far fewer fucks to give, I'm old, I no longer give a shit if someone thinks I'm ~crazy lady gestures~ for clearly stating what I need!

Sometimes "having no fucks left to give" is way better than "confidence" anyway.

This last discussion is an absolute disgrace and I don’t know why sarahell chose right now, after some of the content being discussed in the 40s thread, to start this line of discussion. I hope you know how it looks fucking crass and insensitive and horrible.

Wow.

Just... wow.

Yes, consider me incredibly surprised that you don’t treat people the way you want to be treated on ilx either.

gyac: I am confident that all my posts and lines of discussion look crass, insensitive, and horrible to you. I wish you didn't feel that way about me. But y'know, you have a tendency to go off on anyone and everyone that doesn't measure up to your exacting standards of purity and justice, so I am sure I am in the company of like 99.9% of everyone.

Oh trust me on this, I’m very much not alone on this one & if this was any other thread you’d have people telling you so.

honestly by your logic, no one should be discussing anything else? Like how dare people talk about bands and football when one poster has had a really horrible recent couple of years??? You might think, this line of discussion might not be related to that one person's experience, but the posts of several other cis-men who also posted in that thread?

Keep digging.

I'm so sorry this is happening, Sarahell, I thought you brought up an interesting observation.

The levels of Himpathy involved, to get from "some non-cis-men have gone to another place, so as not to disturb clearly unhappy people by talking about not being unhappy any more" to "you are crass and horrible and have no empathy" is... frankly astonishing.

But given who it is, and their levels of projection, I'm not surprised.

Non-boys who find you are happier now than when you were younger?

I salute your happiness, and support you in it.

gyac: how do you think I should atone for what you clearly believe was a horrible thing to do? How can I make amends? I honestly did not intend to come across as insensitive to someone's serious suffering.

Himpathy, right. I’ll remember this exact comment the next time you’re demanding that nobody say a fucking word to you about your years of appalling behaviour. What a thing to say. But given who it is... likewise.

I kinda want to get into how appallingly sexist/misogynistic ilx was in prior years (mostly in terms of posters who engaged in this behavior being tolerated and encouraged) and how Branwell (definitely), and I (to a certain degree) had to deal with that, and you, gyac, are fortunate that there is way less of that for you to have to engage with.

But honestly, it's not worth going there. That's divisiveness. If this were FB I would delete or edit that post tbh.

Weird, I definitely recall arguing with men on here about appalling behaviour, which was why this thread felt like such a refuge from that shit. That it became somewhere for certain people to post bullshit unchallenged is tragic, but definitely not as tragic as your disingenuous attitude.

I'm sorry you don't believe me, but I am being honest. I've gotten a lot of shit over my 40+ years of life because I am honest and have had to learn when to keep my mouth shut and opinions to myself. Why you perceive a "disingenuous attitude" on my part, I really have no idea.

If there's no other option for me here than to just sit and be a repository for your anger and to hear you out while you tell me all the ways I suck and all the things I have posted that are bad and have hurt people -- then fine. Keep going.

Read your first post itt in this particular line of conversation, read the conversation in the forties thread, see how it comes across. That’s all I’m going to say to you. Not going to waste my breath explaining further.

It’s such a trip, like being back in Convent School, with Mother Superior coming in and demanding I apologise for how terribly I behaved to those poor boys who were bullying me, like, don’t you know one of those boys hurt his foot kicking your head in, you apologise right now, you sinner!

Like sure, OK, Mother Superior! I’m sorry my knuckles were in the way of your ruler, too!

🤣🤣🤣

I sincerely apologize to you and anyone else that felt that my post in this thread was in response to CP's post in the 40s thread, rather than the posts that followed from about a half dozen cis-men whose posts did not indicate the awful circumstances of CP's post. The other posts were what inspired my line of discussion here, because when there are FB threads about one's 40s that are mostly women/non-cis-men -- you end up with a long thread of "actually I felt way better about my self in my 40s than in my 30s" -- and a lot of "50 is the new 40!"

Yes, I share that general perception that I hear more from men that they feel they're in decline, and I hear from women that they're experiencing relief from a lot of burdens as they age. I'm sorry that posters were hurt by talking about it here and now.

I apologize for any offense I've given, too.

38 was when I realized I wasn't young anymore, and 47 was when I realized that my bad planning and tendency to throw away every opportunity I've ever had was catching up to me.

I don’t apologise - Mother Superior is genuinely detached from reality when it comes to misinterpreting the motives and intentions and behaviour of Sarahell and myself, for the worst possible outcome.

None of you did anything even remotely wrong and it actually bothers me that you feel you should have to apologise for liking your lives too loudly.

I saw your post, sarahell, and then the 40s thread, and I've got to say I was pretty shocked because it definitely looked to me like you were following on from CP's posts, and that was... really fucking shit. It did feel crass and dismissive of real problems, and it did upset me. Obviously I believe you when you say that you didn't intend it that way, but I'm not surprised that other people were also shocked by the conjunction of topics. I mean, I don't know that this post is helpful and I'm not asking for you to self-flagellate about it, but I just wanted to note that it wasn't only one person who felt that way.

Sarahell I believe you when you say it wasn’t your intention.

But I can’t look at this thread and what it has become without being really uncomfortable about the line of conversation here, like it’s ok to mock certain posters because they’re cis men, with the implication that their pain matters less. Again, it’s cowardly to use this thread and the post above is probably supposed to be cutting but it really just comes across as so much projection. Am I a bad person because of the things I say? Perhaps. But frankly I’m not going to feel bad about saying that the cruelty that has been on show itt for far far too long - and it’s not a great feeling being the only person speaking up against it because people don’t want to deal with fallout - is inappropriate and absolutely out of line and I shouldn’t be expected to tolerate that. Nor should anyone else. Oh btw sarah I don’t mean you when I say this, it’s Branwell, though enabling their behaviour isn’t doing anything good.

End post before I go full Fizzles.

I don’t apologise - Mother Superior is genuinely detached from reality when it comes to misinterpreting the motives and intentions and behaviour of Sarahell and myself, for the worst possible outcome.

None of you did anything even remotely wrong and it actually bothers me that you feel you should have to apologise for liking your lives too loudly.

, I don't know that this post is helpful and I'm not asking for you to self-flagellate about it, but I just wanted to note that it wasn't only one person who felt that way.

― emil.y, Saturday, February 20, 2021 10:31 AM (five minutes ago)

I didn't assume that gyac was making up other posters also being upset; I had no reason not to believe that part. I really do apologize. There is so much horrible awful shit that people have dealt with and are dealing with, and I don't want to add to that. And I know that I have a tendency to do the "it only hurts when I laugh" type of coping with suffering and the pointlessness and misery inherent in living in this world. And I know that not everyone copes that way, and that to some, it comes across as insensitive and I am truly sorry.

And for the record, if gyac wants to not be reminded of my existence, I will refrain from posting positive comments about the very attractive cat photographs she posts. I also sincerely appreciate yr cat.

I have two cats, you can enjoy them the same as anyone else :)

and I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous, but I really do respect the way that you assert yourself and stand up for what you think is right and aren't afraid of people getting angry.

Me? Well I’m not sure it’s one of my better qualities but it makes me me and at this stage I’m too old to change entirely.

i respect that too. i am extremely resistant to getting involved in these conversations but the posts did not give me a good feeling, to put it mildly. she and emil.y are not alone here and it shouldn't be assumed that they are just because they're the only ones saying so.

Me? Well I’m not sure it’s one of my better qualities but it makes me me and at this stage I’m too old to change entirely.

Yes, you! ... and I think it's that "at this stage I'm too old to change entirely" feeling that is what a lot of one's 40s are focused on and some people are like, "you know what, fuck it, that's me, I can try to be my best self, but I'm not going to become a different person." and others are like, "fuck ..... just fuck ..."

she and emil.y are not alone here and it shouldn't be assumed that they are just because they're the only ones saying so.

thanks for that, harbl. I would rather work things through with people who are bothered by my behavior and who I also really respect and like.

Also--and I hate to bring class issues into this--most of the 40+ women I know are either still pretending they're teenagers or they're dealing with their grown children's problems and/or raising their grandchildren.

(Know in RL, I mean.)

most of the 40+ women I know are either still pretending they're teenagers or they're dealing with their grown children's problems and/or raising their grandchildren.

honestly, I know a fair amount of these too --

You're right, Christine, and I've been wanting to validate your sharing here without assuming anything about you. I wanted to say...the economic precariousness and/or straight poverty that a lot of Americans live in crosses a lot of other intersectional lines.

Kate Manne has written extensively on what misogyny is for: a system of sorting Men (people) from Not-Men (women).

Misogyny doesn’t work by “hating all women” - what it does, subtly but powerfully, is sort “women” into “Good Women” who comply with the (conflicting and impossible) needs of patriarchy, and “Bad Women” who don’t - and punishes the latter, the most harshly.

Under a misogynist system, a woman can only gain power by positioning themselves as “Good Women” and weaponising “Bad Women’s” badness against them. By harshly punishing the “Bad Women”, she gets both power over other women, and the respect of men.

It’s win-win for the “Good Woman” and the system of patriarchy. Once you realise that, you understand why some women do this! But ultimately misogyny hurts all women, non-men, and “Men” as well - and you have to work to dismantle the entire dichotomy to destroy the system.

Imagine having to believe this instead of thinking about your own behaviour.

I disabled killfile for a while, and clearly that was a mistake. I've The "No Boys" thread has always functioned (as well as a kind of social club) as a space where we could talk freely, without worrying about offending the everpresent ~feelings of men~. That was how I, and I think a lot of the people who responded to Sarahell, were using it. A collective sigh of "it does get better". To then have someone come screaming in, that the conversation is inadequately taking into account feelings of men and the feelings about men? It's a derailment.

To bring this back to the topic of conversation at hand, for me there are (at least) two streams both running in parallel and interbraiding, in many ways.

I believe the thing behind a lot of introspection at the moment is the constant overhanging threat of the pandemic. The pandemic has been this omnipresent tsunami of death and grief and fear, which has flattened everything in its path, but has dealt out burdens in different ways and different magnitudes. That I've noticed, even in my friend group, that the structure of our societies and the ways lockdowns have been constructed, mean that the burden of the pandemic has overwhelmingly been shifted onto mothers, gestational parents, and caretakers / carers. Who are overwhelmingly not-men. (While very different but no less real troubles have been shifted onto those who live alone, disabled people, LBGT/Queer people who don't necessarily have conventional family units that are protected by lockdown regulations. For me, it's not just the people who have died, it's my entire in-person, away-from-screen support network that I spent the previous few years building.) Everyone is coping with their tsunami of grief, including me, in different ways.

The other is this large-scale, cultural shifting of the narratives around "Women" (non-men) as we age. That 40 is not the traditional ending of one's life, it may be a rebirth and a beginning. I, personally, have a very long, multi-generational line of women and female role models in my family who went on to long, fruitful and rewarding "second acts" after their children were raised and their husbands either dropped dead of sudden ailments and/or dramatically left the family. 4 generations of women that I met, telling me that their lives *began* in their 40s and 50s. (Funnily enough, including an Edwardian relative who, after her husband died, cut her hair, started dressing like a man, took over the farm and asked her neighbours to call her "Tommy". I've always wondered about that!) That was my expectation for how my life would unfold, and I was finding it true, pre-pandemic. But I also think that many women are questioning the narratives around ageing in women automatically meaning a shrinking and narrowing.

I don't think that's *just* a middle-class narrative, it's just that the stories of, e.g. older women fighting for their pensions, class narratives about the feminisation of poverty hitting older women and child-rearing-aged women particularly hard, those stories are just not seen as glamourous or even political. All of the political and economic forces that are driving the feminisation of poverty, are coming from conservative male-supremacy-white-supremacy, about driving women back into family structures that best support capitalism, rather than being good for women. Discussions of ~patriarchy~ are not a distraction from 'class issues' - patriarchy *is* class issues.

Anyway. For me, personally, the narratives of "your life will get better in your 40s/50s" and "a global pandemic has changed everyone's lives to be unrecognisable in oppressive ways" are a huge collision.

Getting vaccinated on Friday was the first glimmer in a full year, where I felt like there might be an "After Times", rather than the smashed-up debris where the "Before Times" used to be.

I'm interested if other folks have started thinking about their After Times, how you think they will change, or if that's just not a thing yet in your countries?