no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Oh aside from physical pain of cramps and dramatic inconvenience of blood flow, my real period probs are all hormonal. Intense and hormonal.

Technically, this is the "no boys" thread? I don't know that it's ever been about ~womanhood~, big tent or little tent. Just a place free of cis masculinity.

Many, many trans people *have* uteri, and how we deal with them is all over the place. I'm tired of pretending like 'never talk about uteri or having them' is some trans-dictate. It's funny how no one ever goes on the Gays thread and tells them that it's transphobic to talk about dicks all the time. But hey. It's almost as if ~trans discourse~ can be warped to disparage cis women for failure to attain impossible, contradictory perfection just as easily as ~feminist discourse~ can.

Also, I had forgotten, how having hair styled like this exposes one to all kinds of delightful homophobia on the Tube. I thought we left that shit in 1987, but it turns out not. I'm so tired. Or maybe that's just blood loss or hormones from PMT.

As if the world is trolling me, this popped up in the newspaper this morning:

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019/jul/28/looking-for-mr-t-the-politicisation-of-testosterone-and-toxic-masuclinity

It just got me thinking about how differently hormones are politicised.

I think that most people on this thread could read that article, and understand that the discourse discussed in the piece (the whole "men are being feminised by losing T and this is a crisis because ~being like women~ is the Worst Thing Ever" philosophy)is deeply, intrinsically misogynist. Right? But I rarely see this kind of testosterone/male-genitals/manhood/masculinity discourse problematised for how transphobic it is. Coz it really is.

Yes, I see this internal policing kick in, when AFAB people talk about hormones and periods, and how that sometimes leads us to have feelings about our bodies, our selves / genders, or even 'womanhood' in general (whether feeling connected to femaleness or disconnected through dysphoria), that we immediately kick in and make some kind of trans-inclusive statement.

Do you ever see (cis) men doing this, when they engage in testosterone-slash-manhood-discourse?

I don't know which way round I feel about this. Like, obviously, it's GOOD to be trans inclusive, and it's actually good to check in with those around us and make sure trans and non-binary people don't feel excluded by body talk. But it starts to feel like extra labour expected of the AFABs that is never expected of the AMABs, when they start discoursing about the old testosterone.

Sigh. I have plenty of other interests, but this is the only one I ever seem to talk about on ILX any more. That kinda sucks.

Anyway, I'll stop killing the thread now. Bye!

I mean, it would be great if that extra step of making others welcome and un-gendering the conversation were done by all people, specifically AMAB and AFAB, but as far as ilx convos go, I'd be shocked to see that level of awareness in those spaces--so I guess you could say it's not "expected" of them but that's more of a condemnation than anything. Also I was off ilx over the weekend so I don't know where that thread has gone but I'll check it out.

I've been thinking a lot about service industry dynamics and the purchasing of care lately (particularly while getting my nails done ftr lol). First of all, I like being touched (obv with consent) so that part doesn't squick me out/is pleasurable instead of distressing, so I don't experience that type of discomfort. But I used to be more embarrassed by the perceived status & power imbalance, and unfortunately it manifested as me being so uncomfortable that I rushed and mumbled and didn't look people in the eye and connect w them as people because I was so in my own feelings.

The thing is, I'm not sure that particular spasm of discomfort looks any different to the professional service provider than active disdain? Anyway, idk when exactly but my shame and discomfort eased and went away somewhere in there, and without that paralysis it was obvious that stylists and nail techs and wait-staff and etc are SKILLED PROFESSIONALS, and their work has value! And it's so much nicer (for me) to be talking and joking with someone and knowing them as a person and their life and their kids or whatever, and also praising their work AND ALSO accepting the gift of caring and comfort that they're trained to give, which has value because comfort and good-feeling are important for our health and connectedness!

Also I realized that *I* was creating the idea that their work was shameful or low-status because it involved some kind of service or taking care of physical bodies, and that was on me. There's a lot to unpack there about caring and bodies and women and low-status groups and cultural frameworks that should be inspected a lot more closely but I'm gonna leave it for now.

Complicating all of this, though, is that there may often be a language barrier between the customer and the professional, which really discourages communication and community, and can really add to the embarrassment etc of trying to navigate an already fraught experience of service.

I was thinking about this while getting a pedicure next to a nail tech who was getting her OWN pedicure from one of her colleagues and really enjoying it, and all of us joking around, and then later while working on my fingernails, talking w my manicurist about our families and death and loss and relationships and men and lots of personal stuff. Admittedly this kind of thing was/is harder when I went to salons where the staff were less English-fluent but I've still been in plenty of, for instance, Chinese-speaking salon environments where other customers would greet the staff by name, ask about their kids, and just be natural.

Maybe as a midwesterner those kinds of really flowing and public exchanges are just not my natural habitat lol. But I'm learning.

Hmmm. My take on this is that there are still a large number of women who do define womanhood in primarily biological terms (i.e. trans-exclusive), enough that it perhaps feels necessary to make the inclusive disclaimers? (Personally I do assume inclusivity unless I see overtly exclusive behaviour.)

Much as I hate to be a stereotype I am definitely a trans/NB person who seems to only ever talk about trans/NB shit. I guess I can accept that about myself.

I got the best cake recipe once when I was having a pedicure. I've only ever had two pedicures because I'm a massive baby who gets really ticklish and starts squirming and laughing when people touch my feet.

Ugh that T article. "“Society is trying to pigeonhole men almost into behaving like women.”". What does that even mean? Actually I don't care.

Yeah I only paid the glancing attention to that mess.

My take on this is that there are still a large number of women who do define womanhood in primarily biological terms (i.e. trans-exclusive), enough that it perhaps feels necessary to make the inclusive disclaimers?

My point being, given the astonishingly large amount of men who define *manhood* (let alone womanhood) in primarily biological terms, why are the AMABs not expected to ever make the same disclaimers?

Never mind, I know why.

yeah, the article hedges its bets in a v annoying way. It's a 99% made up fascist put-down! But maybe they have a point after all? Who could possibly say! Let me interview an actual associate professor without giving her title, and then some fitness bro who says "pffft ivory tower bitches, amirite? SCIENCE may think you're perfectly normal but maybe you're a WEENIE, PS give me money"

also I find haircuts uncomfortable but mainly because I feel like an alien who doesn't know how to make smalltalk or dress/do makeup/do my hair and whom all the fashionable well-turned-out assistants probably think is totally gross to have to touch. BUT now I admit this is a clumsy backward reading of the power dynamic and I owe it to them to be less diffident and weird in the seat and I feel bad for not thinking it through sooner. Thank you!

(I do try to tip OK anyway! well idk I always tip but maybe not v generously, but I go to unfancy suburban places who seem effusively pleased/surprised to get any tip - but maybe that's another power dynamic ritual and I should tip better also)

Sigh. I have plenty of other interests, but this is the only one I ever seem to talk about on ILX any more. That kinda sucks.

― Einstürzende NEU!bauten (Branwell with an N), Monday, July 29, 2019 5:24 AM (six hours ago)

is it just that the way you want to talk about the other interests / the things you want to say -- it just isn't worth it, or doesn't feel possible?

Much as I hate to be a stereotype I am definitely a trans/NB person who seems to only ever talk about trans/NB shit. I guess I can accept that about myself.

― Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Monday, July 29, 2019 7:17 AM (four hours ago)

you also talk about movies though, yeah?

(also sorry for sidestepping the gender discussion which is interesting but I felt a little unqualified to wade into)

Hi Branwell! Welcome back and please do talk about other things!

Hi rushomancy too and likewise, I enjoy your music lists fwiw although I am p. uncultured and have usually only heard of 10% of the things on them

In terms of salons I believe the rule is that if someone is in business for themselves and they are pocketing the whole cost of your cut then you don't have to tip. But most stylists "rent" a chair from an owner or business, and in that case the tip is meant to be compensation for them over and above what percentage or flat fee they pay or are paid by their employer.

Although now that I say that, after I followed her through 3 other salons, my longtime stylist now co-owns the salon where she works along with a few other ppl and I still tip her so...shrug emoji.

OH LOOK IT'S AN ILX THREAD ABOUT TIPPING soz

ha the girl I had a crush on in High School runs a hair salon in Brooklyn.

you also talk about movies though, yeah?

― sarahell

i don't think so? i haven't really seen a lot of movies lately. i do talk about music sometimes but i seriously have barely been listening to anything in the last two months - just haven't had the time!

maybe it's just, uh, spotlight effect. i hate feeling like the center of attention :(

i was just writing a message to a friend and the phrase "keep it simple and set yourself free" popped into my head. it was immediately followed by "from the extras that you really don't need"
just like that my thoughts turned into a tampon commercial!

lol

can we talk about "extra" ... as it is tends to be applied to non cis-men ... in terms of behavior, etc? As in "she/you are so extra" relatedly "too much" ... I feel a bit dorky for saying this but, (not too much really) a lot of my "pop culture" awareness comes through astrology memes. ... So there's a lot of "extra" around now because it's Leo season. ...

I dunno; it's more like fucken politics infects everything. It's not even possible to have a cute little conversation about movies or music without this stuff coming up in some way or another. And it's the old Melissa McEwan thing of... keep it to yourself and stuff it down inside you so that you get endlessly more angry/depressed or... BRING IT UP AND RUIN THE WHOLE AFTERNOON!!!! It's an impossible choice.

Been watching a lot of movies about Berlin Gay Culture, from classics like Taxi Zum Klo to more modern takes like Mein Wunderbares West Berlin and Desire Will Set You Free, because Yay! Gay! and Yay! Germans! Except, then, watching a film like Mein Wunderbares West Berlin, honestly, it has more men named Wolfgang in it, than it has AFAB voices. You have to ignore that, to enjoy the film. (Desire Will Set You Free, OTOH, was a cheesy, cheesy film, but genuinely made an effort to have a wonderfully full range of genders.) I can no longer discuss films without noticing the gender imbalances in them.

I got Gentleman Jack on DVD, like wow, how can this not be great? Period lesbians in period costumes, woooo! #RelevantToMyInterests or what? But... the gender stuff was handled in a really interesting way, yes. It was really gratifying to see a queer, gender non-conforming AFAB handled in a sensitive and multi-dimensional light. But... OF COURSE because this is a British Costume Drama, they have to shove the Downton Abbey style Tory Agenda Bullshit right down your craw. Landlords and Mine Owners are GOOD! The only people who support Chartism or redistribution of property are bad, stinking, wifebeating alcoholics. I can no longer watch television without noticing the tacit political agendas in them.

I joined another music forum, for a German Experimental Group I am particularly fond of. I love this band more than is reasonable or maybe even healthy. But the overwhelming culture of Music Messageboard Dudes and the endless performance of cis-boy fandom of list-making and thing-collecting was just so oppressive and ... the leader of this group is famously bisexual and quite queer and playfully genderfuck (his partner flat out told me "he hates cis masculinity even more than YOU do!") ... and so those are the interpretive readings that I bring to his work, and yet the blank hostility from the threatened wall of $50 Box Set Men Proper Fans was ... well, it was really off-putting and unfun.

It's like... I dunno. I try to enjoy the things I enjoy with the awareness that ~everything is problematic~ and there is no Perfect. And yet this shit keeps coming up and slapping you in the face because it's impossible to live outside this system.

The good news is, though, that this past year I've started a Queer Theory reading group, where myself and a few people who do enjoy interrogating this stuff on a deeper basis CAN dig into it and go through it. That makes me feel a lot less crazy. And I have a really supportive work environment. (This is going to sound really ridiculous, but the Sys Admin has had the comic Dilbert displaying on the front page of the IT team's intranet. Yesterday, the comic was so openly transphobic that I brought it up with my boss, and my boss actually made the sys admin take it down saying it was not the culture that our organisation wanted to promote - which felt like something good.)

But then, every time I come back on ILX, I just feel this constant... *anxiety* that I'm going to be ripped to shreds if I venture outside this thread. (And often even on this thread, TBH. Like, anxiety does not discern.) It's just easier not to engage at all.

Sometimes I just wanna be really shallow and be like clothes! haircuts! memes! Y'know?

I don't know if it's been brought up on this thread, but I really would recommend everyone on this thread read Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny by Kate Manne.

It's one of the most smart and clear-sighted analyses I've ever read, about what misogyny is, and what it isn't, and how it functions on so many different levels. And answers the question: what it's for.

It's such an amazing book, and I've seen it get so little traction anywhere. I mean, yeah, it's written in a slightly dry academic tone rather than a pop culture tone - but I suspect that's so it would be taken seriously, as the rigorous work it is, and not dismissed as light ~pop feminism~. I just think it's a really important book and I wish more people would read it.

It's 35 minutes later, and I've only just realised that that question about films wasn't even directed at me.

Because: autism. Duh.

But I wish I could assuage the anxiety that other people won't recognise, "Branwell gets this shit wrong, because autism" and not have this wave of anxiety about how people are going to assume it's because I'm an asshole and inconsiderate and self-obsessed.

But... OF COURSE because this is a British Costume Drama, they have to shove the Downton Abbey style Tory Agenda Bullshit right down your craw. Landlords and Mine Owners are GOOD! The only people who support Chartism or redistribution of property are bad, stinking, wifebeating alcoholics. I can no longer watch television without noticing the tacit political agendas in them.

I adore the show Madame Secretary but it is relentlessly "centrist"-pandering and mindlessly pro-military service. It can still make me cry in 10 seconds flat though.

It's 35 minutes later, and I've only just realised that that question about films wasn't even directed at me.

sincerely sorry! it was meant for rushomancy, and on top of that, I had them confused with someone else entirely ... but the anxiety at feeling like a failure at communicating and understanding is "real" ... and I feel like, in general, it's worse for AFAB people because of social conditioning.

Sometimes I just wanna be really shallow and be like clothes! haircuts! memes! Y'know?

Absolutely! I think this is why I have gotten super into astrology memes. There was something I read recently about astrology memes and queer culture and anti-hierarchical structure (maybe) that was gratifying.

this might have been it ...
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/06/astrology-memes-unite-micro-targeting-and-celestial-mythos.html

I adore the show Madame Secretary but it is relentlessly "centrist"-pandering and mindlessly pro-military service. It can still make me cry in 10 seconds flat though.

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, July 31, 2019 1:15 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, this is totally it. Like, it's way, way sub-sub-sub- "Your Fave Is Problematic" (because frankly everything is problematic) but it's just the constant realisation how deeply these kinds of narratives are interwoven through anything which has managed to jump through all the hoops to get on television. It's complicated. Like, how to turn off the internal critic long enough to just enjoy a dumb show as relaxing entertainment.

(I generally don't really like television as a medium, *because* I find it emotionally manipulative. Like, if I'm reading something in a book, I can underline and write "fuck your patriarchal assumptions" in the margin and carry on reading, feeling like I've expressed my disagreement. But television is really enveloping and specifically goes at provoking emotional reactions... but that's an argument for another day.)

Absolutely! I think this is why I have gotten super into astrology memes. There was something I read recently about astrology memes and queer culture and anti-hierarchical structure (maybe) that was gratifying.

― sarahell, Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:49 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

In *theory*, I really like the idea of astrology as resistant culture and queer culture? And I always pay attention to what people say when they talk about astrology, because when they say "I'm like ~this~, because I'm a Taurus..." they are giving you the gift of information about themselves? It's good to discover how people view themselves, and find out how they want to be treated, and saying "my sign is like..." is a low stress way to express that.

But I also hate astrology because every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive" (of course playing right into the stereotype, ugh)

((Also, I just have to post the meme that ~Economics is just Astrology for white men~ because it makes me laugh.))

(Thanks for being understanding. I'm not in the greatest place at the moment, and could really just do with friendly chatter.)

But I also hate astrology because every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive" (of course playing right into the stereotype, ugh)

I don't really do astrology but that might be partly because I was born ~on the cusp~ of two signs and everyone who has learnt this fact has enthusiastically agreed that I had all the many bad aspects of both but was clearly largely the latter sign because that is the sign for stubborn rude selfish assholes like me

(me and my birthdaymate Hitler, yay)

this is now extra funny because iirc - sorry for .xls-ing, hope you don't mind but I'll modreq deletion if you do - you're the former of those two signs (and the one most British horoscopes think I am, whereas most American ones put me as the latter) so it seems either way there is no escape from my inherent star-ordained assholishness

btw nearly everyone I've ever dated also had their birthday on the 20th or 21st of the month, maybe we ~cusp people~ are a thing

Oh, don't worry about it! It's fine! You and I have known each other since the early days of ILX when happy birthday threads were a regular thing. (Another plus for astrology - I am shit at remembering birthdays but good at remembering star signs!)

I guess this is the thing about being born under one of the asshole star signs, is, y'know - asshole to whom? I tend to get along with the principled (stubborn), forthright and honest (rude) and well self-contained (selfish) asshole signs just fine. You always know where you stand with either your sign or mine. Unlike some of those more ~people skills~ signs where they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to your face, and something completely different behind your back, haha. See you can make this go any way you like.

(it is weird that for a long period of my life, 2/3 of my close friends were either born within a couple days of my own birthday, or in the same 3 days of Leo.)

The annoying thing is that "what 80s band is your starsign?" meme that goes round regularly like clockwork and one of my close friends always reblogs it because her starsign is Bowie and she's a massive Bowie fan. But my starsign is a really shitty band I can't stand. (And they stick Kraftwerk under some random sign, when Kraftwerk was founded by an Aries and a Leo, and the band itself is an Aries based on its foundation date? Like, do your research, Astrology meme fans!)

xpost i am birthday mates with Trump so I feel you, spacecadet.

(me and my birthdaymate Hitler, yay)

― a passing spacecadet

if it makes you feel better you can think of your birthdaymate as dank nugs

my particular brand of questionable assignation of personality traits is the myers briggs type inventory - so far as i can tell it's not actually more meaningful or accurate than horoscope or blood type but it's useful for self-stereotyping. (i read once that someone did come up with a scientifically valid way of grouping personality types, but all they managed to determine from it was that teenage boys are assholes.) what i like about it is that i can (and did) change my myers briggs type from the asshole (the one they always gave me was woodrow wilson, i guess because hitler would be a bad portent) to a non-asshole type; astrologically i'm stuck being the asshole, not even on the cusp

I'm not getting into an argument about MBTI (I don't think it's rubbish - just extremely misused, i.e. it has no business being anywhere near an HR department, but it's quite fun to think about as a tool for self exploration or understanding) buuuuttt...

No way is INTJ the Hitler of MBTI. ENTJ is the Hitler. (Haha, we had to do it for work, and my boss got ENTJ and he is the least Hitler person you ever met, so... as I said, useless for HR purposes.)

The cusp is not a thing.

Also, don't all signs come off as assholes in astrology memes???

I am absolutely nothing like what my sign says I’m supposed to be like and so I think it’s all bullshit but still part of me wants to find out I have a moon inside a cave or something that explains it all. I’m a Capricorn btw.

what does it mean if you have no desire (maybe even negative desire) to self-stereotype via lighthearted or misused-by-HR-depts methods?
am i the hitler of astrology?!?!?! :)

Astrology being entirely socially constructed, A Cusp can be A Thing because people meaningfully believe, and act as if it is A Thing. Ergo, A Cusp is actually A Thing.

I think, LL, as with anything, that it's fine to not like a thing. And it's fine to not want to participate in a thing. So long as it stays there! (However, as with many things, if a bunch of people are using that thing to facilitate social interaction, and to share observations and social information about themselves and others - it's churlish to tell others not to do so, or to try to discredit the thing. It's the latter that makes someone a Hitler of a thing; not the mere not-liking of the thing.)

However, I am an INTP, so I analyse the fuck out of absolutely anything. ;)

I have had a couple of gemini parties in my life because I realized I had become good friends with several geminis. I should see what Trump is up to next year.

Def not trying to stop the enjoyment of anything. I’m not Hitler yaaaay

Oof I'm complicated on astrology but more or less take it as Branwell said

And I always pay attention to what people say when they talk about astrology, because when they say "I'm like ~this~, because I'm a Taurus..." they are giving you the gift of information about themselves?

...and one of the things they're telling me about themselves is that they are willing to be identified as a person who at least superficially "believes" in astrology. As an ex-evangelical I'm both programmed to reject astrology as the devil's doorway and also I'm kind of allergic to any discussion of unseen forces or whatever? Sooo all of that is on me.

LL, I get your vibe.

The devil's doorway sounds like fun!

We took Meyers-Briggs tests for a class in college, and I would always get different results.

Except for I, always an I.

I always thought it was Acid House that was the devil's doorway?

http://factmag-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/acidhousetriptohell-4.12.2013.jpg

AMAZING.

Everything is the devil's doorway to Evangelicals. Yoga, meditation, masturbation, college.

I refuse to be categorized, that’s part of my most stubborn stubbornness. Shrug!

Branwell, I bought Down Girl a few months ago, but it is on my ever increasing pile of books to read.

We took Meyers-Briggs tests for a class in college, and I would always get different results. Except for I, always an I.

Same here, always an I, but iirc the others are usually close to 50/50 and fall one way or the other depending on my mood and the phase of the moon.

My line manager wants to send the team (~10 people) on some not-quite-MBTI personality test so we can "learn how to work together better". That sounds nice*, but half of me thinks they're basically meaningless or at least measure something barely relevant to "how to work together", and half of me is scared it'll confirm all my character flaws and it will become an accepted truth of the office that I'm a terrible person who will ruin everything and should be micromanaged and disdained.

* tbh it doesn't even sound nice

Also even apart from the end result I'm scared the quiz will have lots of questions like "I immediately start work on all my tasks and work very efficiently at them until they are done" and, haha, uh... it's a trap, right? Who gets to see these?

So yes, keep these things away from work and HR and "teambuilding exercises" and hiring decisions, please.

(Some smart and good ilxors once recommended the book by Martin Seligman on learned helplessness, which I fear is relevant to my life situation, except one of the early chapters was about him applying his theories to a personality test used by some big company to make hiring + firing decisions, and I immediately disliked the guy...)

every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive"

if you go deep into the whole chart (as opposed to just the sun sign), it can be more interesting or liberatory or just give people like me, who can be analytical and nerdy, more stuff to be analytical and nerdy about ... and that's not even getting into synastry. Basically, I am "absolute asshole" rising, but my sun sign is "the worst person ever" ... but one of the best types of astrology memes are the ones that critique overly simplistic astrology memes: like Aries --> Angry! Angry! Angry!; Taurus --> Food ...

It's good to discover how people view themselves, and find out how they want to be treated, and saying "my sign is like..." is a low stress way to express that.

I think this is really astute! ... And relatedly, I feel like, one of the challenging things about working through your own issues/inner conflicts is being able to find language you feel comfortable with using about them. All the clickbait about young people feeling more comfortable communicating in emoji makes me think of this as well. And part of me feels like a stereotypical "woo woo Californian" talking about my personal issues in astrological terms, but I also have a tendency to be very "closed off" and a desire to be viewed as "bulletproof," and if in order to deal with shit and not destroy myself, my self-talk is about "my Saturn in Cancer problem" or my "Sun-Moon square aspect" then, that's what it is, for now.

APS, is it the Margerison-McCann Team Management thing?

Hey Branwell, always good to see you here.

also APS I have webmailed u