no boys allowed in the room!!!!

One of these days I'll let the issue go (or not, who knows), but something I have stuck in my craw is that progressive lefty dudes of ilx would go apeshit if a white person insisted "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" because obviously anyone who grew up with institutional racism has it backed into their bones; denying this is not OK. But apparently it is fine to say "I'm not sexist! I get along great with my women colleagues!" Perhaps some of these dudes are confusing sexism with misogyny; I honestly haven't felt there is much of the latter on ilx (rare trolling excepted), but "I'm not sexist! I'm a feminist." Brother, please.

on that note, i was hanging out with a male friend last night and after hearing about a pretty run-of-the-mill sexist experience i had with a beloved* bartender, admitted to me how blind he (and people he talks to) can be wrt gender issues and misogyny that is so woven into the fabric that he doesn't see it. i was like yeah, we see it. like a magic thread that runs through everything.

*so beloved that there was an entire night dedicated to lauding him, I did not attend

"I don't trust myself to have a drink with a woman friend because I might fall for her" I mean WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK how are you different from Mike Pence on this? So sexist on so many levels.

the say something nice about another ilxor thread is making me smile today. they are falling all over themselves congratulating themselves for being so decent.

I'd say would should organize a women's ilx strike but the results would be far too depressing.

Bah, I don't think they would care or notice and I kind of don't care if they don't like an internet tone that makes them feel jumbly inside. Maybe in 3-5-10 years (or never) they will realize how far behind they were about things.

I mean, I will say it here, but it feels pretty great to be so sure about things sometimes. And this is seriously my huge side-eye about all of this:

One of these days I'll let the issue go (or not, who knows), but something I have stuck in my craw is that progressive lefty dudes of ilx would go apeshit if a white person insisted "I'm not racist! I have black friends!" because obviously anyone who grew up with institutional racism has it backed into their bones; denying this is not OK. But apparently it is fine to say "I'm not sexist! I get along great with my women colleagues!" Perhaps some of these dudes are confusing sexism with misogyny; I honestly haven't felt there is much of the latter on ilx (rare trolling excepted), but "I'm not sexist! I'm a feminist." Brother, please.

they are falling all over themselves congratulating themselves for being so decent.

Was that what was going on there? I saw a lot of identifying with the shit-stirring post made by what I always assumed was a sock account, and all that made me think was “yeah, guess I’ll just stick to this thread if I ever want to talk about sexism again lol”.

i was wondering about that too
i don't begrudge the identification but it sends my alarm mode into overdrive -- who wrote it, why, etc.

which one was the shit stirring post/the sock account? I always think of that joke (can't remember if I have the right phrasing)
Q: How can you tell when a man has a cold and doesn't feel well?
A: Oh trust me, he'll let you know.

I finally was able to listen to the Saorsi clip (was always in public areas without headphones). Was Ronan Mullen totally dismissive of her after?

He said that thing about “regardless of anything you have ever done” and got the hostile crowd reaction, but she got a LOT of public support. Even Russell Crowe quote tweeted her in support.

I really debated bringing this up, because it *is* ancient history for most of ILX; but for me it is still very raw.

LL mentioned the off-putting clubbishness of the Noize Borad. Well, the thing is, the guy who started that noize dude thing - he harassed me steadily for a period of YEARS, starting pretty low-key handwave-away-able, but escalating to a point where even other noize dudes started noticing that he had crossed a line. Pretty much *all* of the mods, at the start, took the attitude that this was flirty, banter type thing that was welcomed or enjoyed by me, or that I was even somehow complicit in - rather than this being an overwhelming and awful thing that I wanted to *stop* (but had no idea how to make it stop without him continually escalating). Even once it was generally realised that his attention was not welcome, half the mods took the attitude that I simply deserved it, because I was "annoying". The few that saw it as something I was completely upset by, told me things like... well, he's probably ~on the spectrum~ and maybe he has ADHD, so he clearly has impulse control issues, and you really have to work harder on ignoring him. The idea that *I* might be autistic, diagnosed, with a suspected side order of ADD - the idea that *I* might have serious impulse control issues upon being provoked? That was never even considered. It was my job to manage him, whether I was capable of it or not. Not his job to just... stop harassing. It was always presented that the problem was *me*, that I was doing something wrong to attract it; that I was *causing* the problem by asking for it to be dealt with. My reactions, psychological fallout from that harassment, trauma, meltdowns - became more evidence that *I* was the problem. I became viewed as a Problem Poster. Not the guy harassing me, not the people egging him on, and not the people refusing to do anything about him.

I am not the only female-presenting person who has had serious harassment (or worse) issues with members of ILX. Some of those guys were eventually banned when their behaviour escalated from the women to, say... *mods*. Some of those guys are still here, some of those guys have near-mythical status, they still hold jobs with positions of power. Most of the women, on the other hand...

(To the point where... a few years ago, when someone alluded to the oft-mentioned but never explained "chucking a pint of beer at a funeral" incident - people just *assumed* that I was the perpetrator, when the truth was, ILX had a serial harasser, and after comparing notes with other ILX women on what he'd done to them, and what I'd ignored him doing to me - that I was one of his many *targets*, one of the victims of that incident. Yet, because ILX subscribes to the "to name a problem is to *become* the problem" - of course, I must have been the problem in that situation.)

So when I see long-term ILX dudes posting away on #MeToo threads about how they're ~so different~ and congratulating themselves for their attitudes towards women (or even pulling the whole... why don't more women come forward, why didn't anyone tell us...) you will excuse me if my attitudes are less than laudatory. They saw, they knew, they did... NOTHING. Any guy who likes to congratulate himself on how much "one of the good guys" he is, is generally congratulating himself on his obliviousness and blindness to the stuff going on around him. Spare me.

History lesson over. Have a good week. I'm off to enjoy all the Friedhofer und Altbauten in Berlin.

wow. first, thank you for writing that all out. i appreciate the clarity :)

this clause really stands out for me because "unwanted attention" and other people's inability to recognize and call it out has been on my mind for decades. my whole life?
Even once it was generally realised that his attention was not welcome,

I know that harassment will continue but what if we started to recognize that ---> unwanted attention <--- is not the fault of the person who receives it? imagine a world where unwanted attention stops before it turns into everything else we think of as "women's issues" ;_;

Thx for the clarification as well, although I am trying to keep from finding old posts to fill in a lot of gaps (like, a lot).

In other non-men news because they take up way too much of our time that we don't have for them, I am finally starting a new quilting project after 3 years of procrastinating on what I want to do. I might do a colorway inspired by the new season of Mrs Maisel.

TW: descriptions of violence
Femicide in UK: 76% of women killed by men in 2017 knew their killer

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/18/femicide-in-uk-76-of-women-killed-by-men-in-2017-knew-their-killer?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Sorry, I really feel like I've sent the thread on a massive downer.

Like, I'm trying to say, "these systems that exist to protect some people, at the expense of other people... they exist everywhere, even ILX" and it comes out like gossip and complaints. It's probably best not to dig up dead dogs, but let them lie. But just... ILX is not immune.

In happier, non-men news, I've moved from "never dating anyone at all because it's too hard" to "advanced level dating: going on dates in a second (or third) language". So far with hilarious and entertaining consequences. (Alas, no sexy consequences, yet.) I think, in many ways, being a foreigner is weirdly great for autistic people, or indeed queer people, trying to meet other people, because... you have an excuse not to understand local customs or social conventions, not because you're a complete weirdo who can't social right, but because you're just... foreign?

Viel Spaß in Berlin, Branwell!

One undiagnosed aspie trait I have (I am probably not aspie, just weird) is that in IRL conversation I have a massive brain-lag where it takes me a while to get my brain-cogs moving to decode something someone says to me, and think about it, then think of an answer, and translate that into actual words, and make sure they're in the right order and I'm not going to trip over the sounds or accidentally say something weird (I always do say something weird btw), and it takes me about a week, and normally by then the conversation has moved on or the other person's left the room or just got really cross about how slow I am.

So I kind of enjoyed early German lessons, because everyone was slow at forming sentences, and I didn't feel so weird? But now we've reached the stage where other people aren't slow, and I'm weird again, oh well. It's still a hobby.

Also I only seem to post on the politics thread these days and I don't know why I post there because either nobody replies or I get sarcastic replies I can't decode and either way I feel like a weird dumb uncool centrist dad mum cat lady who doesn't know what things mean, but I guess that's most people's ILX experience on most threads regardless of gender, so all good. (Today is my last day at work before xmas so "don't care, all good" is my mood for the day)

PS I enjoyed reading allusions to some events in your big post but it is prob best if I don't go into them or their v tangential incidence on my previous ILX life...

(probably just weird = I do wish there was a cheap and judgement-free place to talk through all the things my mental/developmental hypochondria obsesses on so maybe someone half-knowledgeable could say "no, of course not" or "hmm, maybe slightly" or even "hoo boy, you might be the last person alive who doesn't already know", without having to make a big scene at the GP's and then wait two years, or pay £2k for a private diagnosis or probably non-diagnosis of every separate thing that crosses my mind as the latest excuse for being probably just weird. but anyway. probably just weird.)

(also don't make me ask my parents anything about my early life, I really do not need that conversation, they are good well-meaning people but they are awkward and passive-aggressive enough about the whole depression thing, thanks.)

xp I post there constantly and half my stuff gets ignored, you should still post!

health anxiety is a symptom of OCD, have you considered that? Long before I was diagnosed with OCD I went through a few months where I was constantly in the doctors with minor complaints that evaporated as soon as I left. I was surprised I wasn’t diagnosed at that point in retrospect.

re ILX history -- I think ilx was the first message board i joined that wasn't centered on an IRL community, as in most of the people who posted knew/hung with most of the other people at some point, which I feel has a "moderating" effect on behavior. Like, if someone is being troll-y or says something "edgy" you can see them at a bar or show in the next few days and say, "Hey, dude, what did you mean by 'x'? That was a kinda fucked up thing to say!" or, more common, see a close friend of theirs and talk about it, and generally there would be some other context. Like there are more repercussions to being a dick or creep. I think at first I thought ILX was kinda like that, but quickly realized I was wrong (this was 2009).

The other thing I think about/realized was that so many ilx cis-men are significantly younger than me, and definitely during the "golden age" of ilx, a lot of them were in their 20s or barely out of college (or still in college). I've definitely seen some of these dudes mature and change behavior/attitudes that they had had at the time. Not making excuses for any egregiousness, but it's kinda ironic in the context of talking about trans issues, to sort of "deny" the possibility that a formerly creepy asshole could transition into a decent person.

^^^I appreciate this point.

however, I don't know if we are referring to all the same people, and the above is definitely not intended to make excuses for the two specific individuals that I'm pretty sure you are talking about, Branwell.

I definitely received a lot of shit in my first few years posting, and I tried for a masculine-style response ... idk ... I have to take breaks from this place on a regular basis. It helps me take it less seriously.

thanks for that post sarahell
i think you are otm about the dynamics. it has never made any sense to me that people would excuse online behavior as "just the internet" when there are always real consequences for cruelty. just bc someone can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

good point about people changing too. personally i admittedly have a hard time when someone who used to be a colossal asshole starts to adopt a kinder philosophy (because they grew up, because they reproduced, because xyz) and don't openly apologize and/or acknowledge (more than one cursory time) that they were cruel to people. i do believe people can change, i just have a very hard time forgetting the cruelties.

I actually got a public apology (and a few private ones) from someone who had been a jerk to me. I don't forget the past behavior, but everything in the past year makes me strongly believe dude has changed and is seriously a better person. ... And I don't forgive easily, true to my astrological sign lol.

Taurus?

Taurus?

Scorpio!

That’s right ime too! I have a Taurus in my life who holds grudges foreverrrrr.

(Flighty air sign here, eventually I forget most slights...)

the apologizer was a Taurus lol

Ugh, I need to vent because I am really stressing over the holidays.

My wife just confirmed that I won't get to see my in-laws (who are born-again Christians) because they're "not ready to meet the new me" (although they've had since May and have seen countless pictures on FB) and my wife's stepfather "is taking it pretty hard." (Her mom's words.) It's like, I'm aware of the process of family members and friends coming to terms with finding out someone is transgender, especially if it's someone close and they go through a kind of mourning period. And I understand people are going to have ~feelings~ or whatever, but what, exactly, is he "taking hard?" I didn't do anything to him, or anything that actually physically affects him, in any way whatsoever. Grow up! It should also be noted that I have never, ever, ever, ever said a word about the fact that in his pre-Christian life this man was a drug addict and spent time in prison for trafficking. Let alone told him he isn't welcome in my house.

My wife is going to go over to her mom's without me on Monday and take over some baking and some gifts, which I get, and which is the kind of person she is. But part of me really wants her to say, "Sorry, if you want me at Christmas, you take my wife, or you don't get either of us." Is that selfish?

Meanwhile, I'm choking on anxiety over going to my mom's house, because I'm afraid that my mother's boyfriend, just out of sheer laziness or forgetfulness, is going to deadname and/or misgender me all day.

Merry Christmas!

Ugh, I am so sorry. It's hard to deal with feeling like your partner isn't sticking up enough for you.

In the past year, a friend of mine, who is FTM (has been male for like 20 years) recently had this horrible experience w/medical stuff and insurance related to his former gender (he's about yr age, Eliza)

but back to the holidays, I think his and his wife's families also have problems like yours and your wife's -- still -- after 20 years

eliza, I no longer speak to most of my family but my dad will still email my spouse which really annoys me. I have these types of "how dare you, whose side are you on" feelings when my spouse stays nice and emails pleasantries back. I had to get over myself and trust him, my relationships and thresholds for people's nonsense are not the same as his. All of this is relatively new for everyone in your life and I assume that your wife, who you likely trust more than most/all? people in the world, will continue to be your biggest supporter in front of her family, even if you are not physically present. All of these *feelings* that your in-laws have, they can take them to the altar, they have nothing to do with you as a person.

That's awful to hear. And I cannot fault the level of support she's shown me throughout all of this, not at all -- a lot of other women would not have had what it takes to stay with a partner who is transitioning. I know I have it better than a lot of other trans women when it comes to that. It just stings a little.

xp

Thanks for explaining to me how the internet works, Sarahell, but, believe it or not, for many years, ILX *was* a group of people who knew each other IRL, and went to the same gigs and clubs and sorted stuff out down the pub. And then a couple of guys turned up who decided they weren't having that 'cuddlestein mountain' atmosphere, and they were more interested in treating the boards as an online version of space invaders, where other posters were merely blips to be shot down.

I know you're sincere when you say you're not *trying* to make excuses for them... but it's always telling, when someone is more interested in repeating those lines, such as "he was really young" (he was in his mid 20s) and "he hadn't yet learned that other people are actually human beings" (a lesson many children manage to grasp by the time they hit double digits) and are really invested in telling others how much that guy has changed and grown up, and how he's such a nicer, more mature dude now - than they are in understanding that these kinds of rationals are exactly what perpetuate the whole system that allows these kinds of dudes to get away with it for so long in the first place. Sorry, but I'm not really interested in any more of those kinds of conversations. The collateral damage was too high.

Spacecadet, there are online communities where people do exactly that? Stuff like Wrong Planet, and the many-faceted blogosphere for #ActuallyAutistic - they're not medical professionals, per se. But given the nature of the beast, often people who actually are/have Autism Spectrum stuff, or ADD, or OCD, know from the inside what it actually feels like, and how it translates into "this weird thing lots of us do" - in a way doctors can be completely useless, because they've only got a checklist of how it looks to doctors.

I don't feel like it's really helpful for me to be on ILX right now, so I'm going to go off and enjoy Berlin for the next few weeks. Have good holidays - or the best holidays you can - everyone.

I feel like you are reading my post in almost the exact opposite way as it was intended. And yes, I am aware of ILX's early history, I am not going to be offended and view your post as condescending -- you were here way before me, and I respect that and your authority on such matters -- and that was why I mentioned "2009". And my post was not meant to "explain" anything to you, it was me, talking about myself, and my experience, and how I learned things, interpret them. That is one of the nice things about this thread, compared to a lot of other threads, where we can say, "I had this experience." and someone else can say, "Oh? Well, I had a somewhat similar experience, and my experience of this thing was more intensive, and isn't that fucked up on a systemic level?" and not turn it into a pissing context about expertise and almost willful misreading, because one of the things that was very common of that era of ILX is finding pieces of other people's posts, interpreting said pieces in a negative, confrontational way, and using them to attack the person. I've seen people do it to you so many times, and you rightly stood up for yourself and called them out. So, it's kinda ... frustrating ... to see this perpetuated.

Branwell for someone so conscious about 1) dudes taking up more than their fair share of conversational space and 2) ‘splainin, maybe check yourself?

That was an xpost

Even though I've only been posting here about 10 years, I have seen people change in terms of how they treat others. And I know your experience was way way way more traumatic than mine, and I'm only posting about it because you brought it up. And in terms of the larger issue -- should we basically do the equivalent of a perma-ban on people who have been harrassing, misogynistic, bullying, etc. or is there a way that reconciliation is possible if the person apologizes, stops behaving like a shit, etc.? Like, this is one of those things that keeps coming up in various communities I'm a part of ... we've called them out, we've removed them from positions of power or situations where they could be abusive, now what?

xpost eliza, for clarification, I hope that didn't come off as "get over yourself and be grateful for your wife's support." I expect that she has thought about this at length and that this will be heavily on her mind when she sees them. It still does suck though.

gyac, ha, I've been trying to ignore the stereotypical OCDness of one of my recent habits: going back to check the door is locked. (I always forget to pay attention while locking it and then genuinely have no idea if it's locked rather than doing it as a ritual, but maybe that's how it usually works.)

I'll, uh, read up on that, thank you.

Eliza, sorry for the Christmas hassles, hope all goes relatively painlessly.

Branwell, thanks for the advice and enjoy Berlin.

sorry for gliding past all other posts, but - general ladies thread solidarity/Christmas survival fistbump, all the best

-- spacecadet (Aries/Taurus cusp, fanatical grudge-holder)

This is very good and reiterates what we have been saying. https://lithub.com/power-walking/

Yet when I have talked to straight men about what happens to me on the streets I have consistently been met with looks of blank innocence. They insist they know nothing of it. I have seen the same conversation played out extensively on social media where the men most devoted to the use of the hashtag #notallmen always claim ignorance, are “surprised,” so “surprised” they’ll go as far as to insist that what women are telling them cannot possibly be true, that invention or exaggeration on a global scale must surely be in play. Talking to a straight man about street harassment can be, as many black folk including black men have pointed out, like talking to some white people about the daily indignities of racism.

As I write this I wonder about all those guys, of every class and color, who have interrupted my thoughts in order to remind me of my place. For whom it was fun to try to unnerve or to humiliate me. To them I say, Just wait. It’s coming. Too late for me. Too late for you to learn much except a mote of what it might be like to be treated as if you don’t matter. But it’s coming.

I’d like to say I wish I were a better person than to feel that way.

I wish I could. But I can’t.

blah ignore the bold text , insert quotes.

a mote indeed. my embarrassing selfish want is a mountain of apologies, real ones. i know full well i am not going to get them but that doesn't stop me from righteously wanting them.

i -- an avoider of internet argument -- hopped into this fb conversation yesterday when a guy i knew socially 15+ years ago asked "do you believe in the patriarchy and/or white male privilege" and then asked his respondents to explain why. needless to say, it devolved fairly quickly into him writing paragraoh upon paragraph of big-word-dropping clueless righteous hair splitting and eventually he managed to add a paragraph conclusion that threw a barb at his ex wife. i kept my responses short and i think my last one was "we all suffer under oppressive systems." i mean...i had no idea this guy was going to open his head and show us all of his brain worms at once.

Idk if this is appropriate for this thread so please tell me to fuck off or whatever, but it’s fashion related and I want your opinions!

I’m getting married later this year, and I know pretty much what I want to do in terms of hair and makeup. It’s a very small wedding and because of how it was originally planned I never intended to wear w wedding dress and still don’t, really. Tbh I never really thought about my wedding and now that it’s actually happening...I still don’t really regret it, ha.

I’m not sure I want to wear white, but I’d like to wear something light coloured, thinking either a dress or separates could be nice.

Anyway please tell me, what did you wear for your wedding day?

I bought sth at the last minute and in a sale. Yes, my wedding was a disaster. Lol. Hey, it could only get better after said debacle. Haha