no boys allowed in the room!!!!

my mom's mom was very similar. i found out after she died that she got permanently mad at me in 1991 for bringing a friend to a family function and held that against me until she stopped talking to me altogether in 1996 because she thought it was unwise of my parents to allow me to go to colombia during my year abroad in college. she died a few years ago, i don't even remember when, and i cried (at work in front of my class) but mostly because she was so miserable and it was sad to me that a person could live an entire life being that miserable and resentful and not do anything about it. she was a talented and inventive home cook, that's what i got from her i guess. she taught me what asafetida was when i was 7 or 8. she made clothes for me too, at least until she decided that she didn't like me anymore.

i think i posted something when she died because my mom and aunt found all these bags of $20 bills in her closet. i could look it up but why bother. anyway, you're not alone in having a grandma like that. i have plenty of other examples, but why bother typing them out. they're all the same!

so i was riding my bike home and was stopped at a traffic light, and this guy about my age in a suit (THIS GUY) walking up the sidewalk near me was talking pretty loudly. i figured he was on a headset and heard something like "you have to watch out around here..." and slowly realized he was talking to me. i looked over and said, "sorry?" and he told me that the buses come up pretty fast and turn right here at the light and you should be careful.

i said, "i know what a red light does." he looked kind of annoyed. WTF? why does he look at me and think i need to be told basic things by a complete stranger? he walked away and i said "MEN EXPLAIN THINGS TO ME" and busted out laughing because what else can you do

lol

it was so ridiculous. i live here, i'm on my own bike with a helmet and reflective gear and a a headlight, i'm obviously not a tourist on a bikeshare who doesn't know where they're going

bahaha he sure helped ya out
My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

my friend was yelled at by a cyclist to "Lose some weight & move your fat ass" & then he followed her into a restaurant & told her to "keep those calories down"

so many levels of ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME wtf

tbh I am still confused why the story didn't end with her murdering his stupid ass right there but jeeeesus christ

WHAT?!? A stranger? I.... I think I really would deck him.

right?

Random: a (male) friend of Jesse and mine was walking down the street when another dude on a bike derisively told him, "Get a car!" and this remains one of our favorite miniature anecdotes.

loooooool

That's common here iirc?

Ooh wait HE was on a bike. Ha

Ugh, I just wrote out a response to this, but my browser crashed and ate it. I guess the world didn't need to hear my ~THOTS~ anyway.

Just something about WTF are these episodes even supposed to provoke. Like, obviously laughter is a better reaction for you than anger, but I think men find laughter much more threatening than (impotent female) laughter. There are so many times when I don't even want to get angry or laugh, but just stare at them blankly and evenly and just say "and what on earth do you think you're trying to accomplish?" (yet being afraid that would learn to more obnoxious reprisals than the obnoxious behaviour to start with.)

But then, just feeling really sick of feeling so brutalised. Feeling sick of feeling afraid of male reprisal so much of the time.

I mean, obviously it's good to come on this thread, and laugh along with everyone else and go "OMG THAT'S RIDICULOUS" because that feels very freeing.

My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

― just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Friday, June 6, 2014 1:26 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:D :D :D

Some days I really wish there were one of those cute ~catchphrases~ for that particularly nasty intersection of misogyny, with bigotry against the mentally ill.

(Double points if it's one of those "women be ~crazy~!" assertions coming from one of those guys deflecting attention from his own bullying, gaslighting and generally refusing to notice how his own actions make women around him feel uncomfortable or threatened.)

maybe we can coin one, cause that would be damned useful on practically a daily basis

there's this new lovely thing that guys are doing at work, where if a woman is being somewhat assertive (not even aggressive, per se... just... a normal work person?) the guys will go, "Hey, why are you YELLING, man..."

It's ONLY ever directed at a woman. A male friend of mine used to do it to me, too, asking, "Why are you yelling at me?" in a joking manner if I ever said anything above a whisper. I think it's supposed to cue some defensiveness, because that's nearly what always results. It's really ugly and rude, I think. What would be a good comeback?

lately at work we have been talking about men telling us to "relax" or "calm down"

we get the full-on "don't be so emotional" when we are not "being emotional"

oh that has definitely happened to me - after extended discussion over the phone with a guy as to why he needed to follow a different process going forward to avoid issues. i was deliberately using super diplomatic corporatespeak and never once raising my voice, though i did sound a bit irritated as it took a while for him to listen, because why would he listen to a younger woman tell him something.. it got back to me that he'd told his manager he got yelled at. also a woman once was complaining about the same thing because i didn't suddenly back down and apologize when she lashed out at me for no reason - somehow keeping an even tone becomes "yelling at her." also gotten the "don't get upset" when i stick to my point in a disagreement instead of saying the other person's right and shutting up.

i am a soft spoken type of person and have never yelled at anyone in the workplace, ever. i guess maybe i could really scare people if i actually did get angry? lately i have been cultivating this habit of appearing to have an incredibly great sense of humor about disagreements and calling out rude behavior, like it's really fun for me and not maddening in the least, because if i'm not smiling when i disagree with someone it must mean i'm upset/yelling/irrational/etc

What would be a good comeback?

Punch in the dick?

i got in a very very minor fender bender this weekend, (other party was a white male). First thing he did was call me the "c word" and I said that that's a misogynist term here, though maybe not where you come from (he had a British accent), and then he accused me of being racist. I laughed and said, that's not how racism works and he clearly isn't from around here. Later, presumably as a result of standing my ground, he referred to me as a man-hating lesbian.

The Daily Mail calls your incident "political correctness gone mad."

Oh ffffuuuuuuu.... sarahell, our lot can be the worst. And the idea of daria-g as a casual yeller is laughable.

I was really impressed that he believed that my assertively asking him to give me his insurance information before I gave him mine was an indicator of my sexual preferences.

Honestly I think car accidents bring out the worst behavior in most people, me included.

Unfortunately I'm picturing him as the husband of a lovely friend of mine, because he would behave exactly like this. How she ended up with him is a very long and frustrating story.

I wish I knew a good riposte, Mandy. Sometimes a student will accuse me of "yelling" under similar circumstances, and I joke that "you guys know I'm just naturally loud," but the power dynamic in our two situations is different.

Mand33, sorry.

Also sometimes I will deliberately lower my voice to about 80% of normal, and maybe 20% deeper than normal, very serious and flat affect, and a poker face, and fix my body language to be as neutral/pro-styles as possible, and make a lot of sustained eye contact, and improve my diction a little. Which is aggressive, but certainly not "yelling."

xp - Mandee - my first instinct would be to smile, make a "c'mere" motion with my hand and then whisper while smiling, "stop being such a fucking baby."

Anyway I have learned that saying, "I'm NOT yelling!!" doesn't work.

but that might not be appropriate for your workplace :/

I'd probably put them on the spot and ask what makes you think I'm yelling? In a rly calm voice. When ppl accuse me of being histrionic 1) they clearly have never seen me get genuinely upset and 2) it makes me feel xtra chill bc I know they feel threatened by me and are trying to intimidate and it's not working. Haha.

tell him to stop being so emotional

Oh god, yeah. In man-speak "she was YELLING AT ME" means basically "she contradicted in any way." Like the moment one of these men encounters any kind of resistance from a woman, they are instantly 3 years old and back in the nursery and MUMMY IS BEING UNFAIR!!!11

I mean, IDGAF, I am perfectly prepared to yell if that is what gets the job done. I realised long ago that "nice lady" was never going to be a trope accessible to me, so why fucking bother trying to confine myself to the ~accepted emotional range~ (or lack thereof)? If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling." Sometimes it works, and the dude simmers the fuck down because it is *so* unexpected. Actual female anger (not ~hysteria~ but anger as controlled aggressive display) is so unacceptable. But, it does mean that that dude will be afraid of me for the rest of time. But then again, so many people are afraid of me anyway, what's one more. *shrugs*

None of this is helpful, I realise. And I realise it's probably counter-productive. I am ~setting the team back~ by playing the Angry Woman. But, y'know, you're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't. Welcome to being a woman.

I don't know, it's like the power of expectations. And subverting an expectation can be a form of power, I guess?

I have this real problem with "Other People's Narratives". It's really, really hard, when people constantly treat you as if you were X (e.g. 'angry', 'crazy', whatever), they are just going to fit your behaviour into their paradigm, no matter what your behaviour is. It's hard not to get caught up in other people's narratives, and I have a very strong streak of "treat me like a baby, I will act like one." I am aware of the emotional role that has been cast for me, and the pressure to conform to that role is... immense.

But the power to shrug and say "that's your narrative, not mine" and go mine own way? That's hard. If someone is trying really hard to cast you as the crazy, emotional ~angry~ lady, to just respond with a long, even, no-bullshit stare, and be all "I'm not playing this game, that's in your head, not mine." (But equally, when someone is trying to intimidate you into never contradicting them by trying to cast you into ~nice~, demure, mummy-lady... y'know, fuck that, too. Realising that men are soooo afraid of female anger makes the threat of female anger a very potent tool. In the office, being seen as "the kind of woman who *could* go off" is more effective than ever actually going off. Oh, but of course, doing that, is being ~manipulative~, rather than, y'know, an actual effective defence. It makes me so angry, the way we are *constantly* expected to manoeuvre and dodge and generally compensate for men and their weird attitudes about women, but god forbid, you ever develop any coping strategies, then that's "manipulative")

Blargh.

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

last night, and it was so great, and I learned so much (haha, I am probably not the kind of person you should tell how to identify Hemlock) and I was feeling so great. And then five minutes on ILX and I'm feeling icky and ugh. I'm gonna go and look at Vetches and Vetchlings for a bit.

If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling."

I am glad I am not the only one who does this! Thank you!

(I just had this momentary fantasy of the next time some bloke accuses me of "yelling" when I'm speaking normally but assertively, to change my voice deliberately to the "cooing at babies ickle-diddums" girly voice and say something like "is this more the ~tone of voice~ that you can understand?" but that would probably get me in more trouble than just outright yelling.) :-/

or "take your unresolved mommy issues to your therapist. don't take them out on me"

Haha, totally, yeah!

(But, as more sensible brain takes over)...

Delightful fantasy, but probably not. Because 1) Having been on the receiving end of crazy-shaming so many times, I am really loathe to use "therapy" or "unresolved issues" as a zing or a stick to beat someone with, no matter how appropriate. And 2) I don't actually think that the vast majority of this shit *is* unresolved mummy issues, I think it's just the constant, pervasive societal (and individual) level sexism that teaches men that women are only ever present to smooth and lubricate the ~feels~ of men, and should never display emotions or motivation or requirements of their own. And though I am sure that there are many men with mummy issues, that totally play into and reinforce this whole mess, it's deeper than mummy.

Aaargh everyone OTM.

OTM about "why are you getting so upset/irrational?" when stating yr opinion exactly as rationally (or more so) and forcefully (or less so) as they are.

OTM about being typecast and abt realising that I am not pretty or non-schlubby enough to be received as Nice Lady Is Being Nice so why bother? oh, because any minor infraction of niceness will be totally put down as Hey Look At The Crazy Shrieking Ugly Fat Woman Who Is So Stupid And Loud And Totally Flipping Out For No Reason.

And OTM about the poisonousness of the whole women = irrational, men = logical unemotional fact-diviners thing.

Was reading some article about the importance of teaching young children and in particular boys (since the girls get told parts 1 and 3 anyway) "this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good. And, yeah probably that is for their own good! But maybe also just as a tiny unsettling of the idea "the thoughts in my head are the logical result of Universal Truths as processed by a series of mathematical functions, and the thoughts in YOUR* head are spontaneous bubbles of emotion, and if they disagree I get to tell you you're being shrieky and hysterical"

(* where YOU are usually a woman but sometimes another man whose masculinity is obviously in question as a result of this suspected feeling-having)

Haha but '

"this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good.

(And there's a part of me that wants to stamp my feet and shout "if I can fucking learn to do it, at the age of 40, why can't ~AAAAALLLLLL MEN~?" This is not a healthy emotion.)

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

(xp) OK, yes, to be honest I am not super-good at reacting well to emotions myself (I do "fly off handle", "burst into tears" and "remain silent so as not to burst into tears but seethe about for weeks even though I probably totally misunderstood anyway"), but I've never been left in any doubt that my emotions were emotions, and were unseemly and illogical!

I would like to learn more about overriding that default emotional burst-reaction though. When I was waiting for a depresso-therapy appt once, the only reading matter in the waiting room was an anger management booklet, and I found it p. interesting.

I do have a temper that gets away from me in ways I find super-embarrassing - I can shamefully recall almost toddler-esque tantrums from the past couple of years over the most minor of irritations or perceived slights, plus a whole bunch of nasty "why did I even have to get that dig in when I knew it wasn't worth it" moments - but I suppose it's never been in the top 3 things I've wanted "fixed" by therapy, so I've never really got onto managing it.

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

Ugh yes. See also "Don't be so defensive!"

"I was just kidding, can't you take a joke?"

Being accused of humorlessness is my personal curse. Don't get so upset!

It's almost as if they're trying to create a situation where they get to tell you what to do or how to feel.

Wait wait sorry to interrupt, but can I back up?

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

THIS. SOUNDS. AMAZING. I want to *be* that guy someday. You guys don't live in Tucson, so I can share my favorite fact that the golden barrel cactus always grows south! It is nature's compass, and it does not give a fuck about your standard map orientation.