no boys allowed in the room!!!!

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YEAH! I'm in so what do we do in this here room then?

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:22 (fourteen years ago) link

talk about makeup and boys and lisa frank stuff

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:23 (fourteen years ago) link

User BIG HOOS aka the steendriver has been successfully banned from the thread

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:24 (fourteen years ago) link

is this where we talk about shoes and dryer sheets

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:25 (fourteen years ago) link

in a word: y

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link


I am down with talking about all those things.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

and swiffers

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate the swiffer btw

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (fourteen years ago) link

You hate the Swiffer? I was thinking of gettin' one tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i dunno maybe it will improve your life but my mom got me one and it had a neutral effect afaic

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:28 (fourteen years ago) link

i wish clarissa from clarissa explains it all posted here

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:29 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm glad oprah doesn't post here except i would like to suggest ban her

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

MJH was a bitch to me (as covered on another recent thread) so I don't have that much <3 for Clarissa :-(

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

JTT <3333333333333333

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link

I totally had this game btw:

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link

also we can make those paper fortune tellers and tell each others fortunes, in fact i am gonna make one right now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

who are:

lisa frank

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

haha what was the other game that was kinda like girl talk but it had men u could date?

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

x-post OK yeah, am definitely up for doing that.


Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i recall having this but i don't believe my mom would let me have it so i'm confused

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

xpost justine:

lisa frank designed crazy school supply items like some of the dolphin-festooned things you see on this thread, she was v popular with middle school aged girls in the early-mid 90s

melissa joan hart is mjh, she played the title role in "clarissa explains it all" which was a popular nickelodeon television show for the same age of girls at roughly the same time

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate to be gabbneb, but i actually did briefly date a guy who kinda looked like james franco, esp as he is in this picture:

anyways he was mad dumb

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:37 (fourteen years ago) link


Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:39 (fourteen years ago) link


man i so rarely like a pinup type of dude it is kinda cool when i do cause then you can like commiserate about it with other girls

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (fourteen years ago) link

LOL yeah he's defintely just well . . . dreamy.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (fourteen years ago) link

dryer sheets?

yes james franco is a universal.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:41 (fourteen years ago) link

he's 2 years older than me?!

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah what's the with dryer sheets? I'm allergic to most fabric softeners so I have to use hippy dippy all natural stuff that doesn't work all that great but is at least something.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

how old r u

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i hate dryer sheets, they are pointless

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

i don't like anything that makes things smell like anything!

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Mr. Franco and I are 4 mo. and 10 days apart in age and I believe he's currently attending my alma matter.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

damn erica lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link

en vaporisateur

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

hahahaha touche

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

yall check out this creepy ad btw:

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (fourteen years ago) link

(wait - I dind't actually know that . . . I looked it up just now. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was some franco-obsessed crazy person)

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

ew rapey

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link


harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

ok yeah, that is exceptionally creepy

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (fourteen years ago) link

lol y'all talking about my "homeboy" ... Tim L is like Steph Curry ... he not only plays/played for the Bay, but reps the values the area is known for.

sarahell, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 18:19 (seven months ago) link


Let’s just say I understand those of you who stopped bothering a lot more today!

here you go, muttonchops Yaz (gyac), Sunday, 19 February 2023 21:09 (seven months ago) link

"young pussy" ...

sarahell, Sunday, 19 February 2023 21:31 (seven months ago) link

one month passes...

i remember people making fun of momus (+ occasionally actually criticizing him) for fetishizing asian women, but did ILX ever come at momus for being a rapist / "dating" a 14 year old child when he was in his 30s

here 1st (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 11 April 2023 16:11 (five months ago) link


Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:11 (five months ago) link

The old thread where this is discussed has some incredibly eyebrow-rasing defending going on in it too.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:16 (five months ago) link

So yeah I guess some ppl did? (JW in particular)

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:17 (five months ago) link

I don’t remember that thread!

here 1st (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:23 (five months ago) link


werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 02:33 (five months ago) link

I didnt either, I googled Momus dating 14 yr old and an old ILX thread is one of the first hits lol

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 03:55 (five months ago) link

I didn’t encounter much first-hand momus back in the day (was he mostly on ilm?), and definitely wasn’t aware of this but i dunno, very much in character maybe? Fucking ugh just NO

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 05:21 (five months ago) link

Is this the thread where it’s discussed?

Britain's youngest mother

limb tins & cum (gyac), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 06:18 (five months ago) link

oof that whole thread :/

had no idea about this either. and he married her when she was 17? fucking hell

Roz, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 07:29 (five months ago) link

Shazna said: "I was only 14 and I had a crush on a boy who was a fan of Nick's music.

"But the relationship never got off the ground and I wrote a letter to Nick telling him. It was a kind of agony aunt letter.

"He wrote a very nice letter back to me and said that we should meet some time and talk.

"Months later we met and got on really well."

Sounds like….. grooming. I’m never ever going to believe there’s any reason a mid-30s man would be friends with a 14yr old girl.

just1n3, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 08:55 (five months ago) link

Jesus this is horrible. I agree that there is no valid reason for a grown adult to “”””befriend””””” a 14 year old. I watched the final portion of Surviving R Kelly a few days ago and have no tolerance for enablers. I didn’t before watching it either but it’s so clear people had to create the space for him to do the revolting things he did. 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 12:59 (five months ago) link

I've actually thought about the lack of pushback on this a fair bit over the years, and it's definitely horrible. The narrative was that he married her to save her from forced marriage, and it was all very noble and honourable. It was all nicely packaged to not just be acceptable but to play into a white saviour complex. It's one of the many things that makes me question just how easy I find it to believe people when they confidently state that they have done nothing wrong - why did I, personally, not push back on this narrative harder? How often am I still accepting things that I should not, or making excuses for people who I should not be?

emil.y, Wednesday, 12 April 2023 13:26 (five months ago) link

yah, 16 yrs ago i'm sure i'd've said stuff on that thread that would now sound horrifying as hell, and in the 90s? lord, teen me would have thought momus was a freaking hero & wld prob have tried to wrangle an underaged marriage for my own fool self. "woah how rebellious & romantic & glam & subversive! how do i shot matrimony w/ louche indie darling"

can't wait to look back in another 20-30 yrs and be aghast at all my current bad opinions (does that sound flippant? i mean it, actually, tho. i want to perpetually become a more kind & conscious cat)

bloompsadaisy (cat), Wednesday, 12 April 2023 14:33 (five months ago) link

i was always vaguely confused by the whole momus thing, but i remember thinking he sucked and was wildly offensive constantly when i encountered his posts. it was...bewildering how many otherwise smart and decent-seeming dudes on ilx had his back.

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:21 (five months ago) link

and i know what you mean, emil.y. particularly when i was first on ilx in my 20s there was so much ambient objectification and thoughtless sexism that confused me, and i was so ready to be like, but so many of these people are smart, so i must be missing something.

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:22 (five months ago) link

xp very much before my time but literally every time I read an old post in some old thread I’m like, seriously?

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:25 (five months ago) link

Yes — I remember trying to understand that thread that was about “girls on bikes in skirts with beers” or whatever it was. I remember thinking that in order to be attractive one must also be carefree & easygoing, which I was not bc I felt inflamed by the monolithic “girls”
I realize it’s not chill or cool to feel this but it always strikes me as informative at the very least when “girls” are invoked.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:29 (five months ago) link

I can’t speak to that but I found it illuminating to look into that male antihero thread and find someone trying to hijack the discussion with “what about female antiheroes”.

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:35 (five months ago) link

That was also a fairly mild thread comparatively, light and breezy objectification

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:36 (five months ago) link

fuck being carefree & easygoing is how i break it down to an extent

horseshoe, Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:40 (five months ago) link

I can’t speak to that but I found it illuminating to look into that male antihero thread and find someone trying to hijack the discussion with “what about female antiheroes”.

― Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac)

not just trying but succeeding! i did try do my own thread hijacking but nobody bit, which is probably just as well because i feel like i phrased it really poorly and if someone did bite it'd just turn into a huge clusterfuck

i'm much happier with people saying "well, what about cersei lannister?"

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 April 2023 22:23 (five months ago) link

there's this short story by casey plett (she writes stories about trans women) where the protagonist is going through her old stuff and sees a tucker max book she used to own, and that's just, like... a whole mood.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 April 2023 22:26 (five months ago) link

emil.y and cat otm - i was very young and thought some pretty dumb shit when I first started posting on ilx, and it wasn't until much later that I learned to push back or question certain assumptions. and even now there are times where I see things being said that feel... off but can't find the right way to phrase my discomfort.

but re the male antiheroes thread - i thought about posting there but i can't be bothered, such a boring discussion imo. there are so, so many female antiheroes on TV - Villanelle on Killing Eve, Cookie Lyon on Empire, Claire Underwood on House of Cards, heck even OG Gossip Girl's Blair Waldorf. And never mind Cersei - House of the Dragon is led by two women who arguably both fit the anti-heroine bill.

The only reason men struggle to identify them is because they don't actually give a shit. Also women-led "prestige dramas" so often get seen instead as "prestige soaps".

Roz, Sunday, 16 April 2023 03:52 (five months ago) link

xps it was this post actually

m0stly clean (Slowsquatch)
Posted: 15 April 2023 at 19:10:48
Are there any despicable female antiheros?

And it’s like, literally had to see male filmbros shit up the Tár thread and behave disgracefully towards Roz of this thread not that long ago?

Besides that, the thread is not interesting per se except that that question is like, who is this for?

Anyway, Roz, Blair is an all time favourite of mine, the time she preemptively cuts Jenny off in the school corridor with “wasn’t me, wish it was!” is all time.

Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Sunday, 16 April 2023 13:35 (five months ago) link

I think the thread is interesting… it’s kinda weird complaining about an ilx thread not being interesting when you aren’t obligated to read it?

sarahell, Monday, 17 April 2023 06:12 (five months ago) link

one month passes...

I was going to post this in the No Way NYT thread but decided to post about this here because my "no way" response is mostly due to feminist stuff. This is the first paragraph. I got angry and stopped reading. I then thought, why is this so aggravating, and is my anger problematic? Is it coming from a place of privilege?

One afternoon in 2020, early in the pandemic, I met Syl’violet and Matthew for a virtual session. Young, idealistic, deeply in love, they were also prone to dramatic fights. In this session Syl’violet, a vivacious essayist and spoken-word poet, was trying to describe the ways she felt Matthew, a measured medical student, was trying to control her, in this case by trying to dissuade her from buying a slushy. He thought they should keep to a tight budget until after he became a doctor and achieved financial stability. Then she could have “all the slushies you want later.” Syl’violet found his reasoning maddening, especially since he seemed to imply she was reckless.

Number one, this is so fucking petty. I hear about arguments like this and I feel like yelling at both people to grow the fuck up. It's not like I'm affluent, but, if I were in her position, (and I have been on occasion), I would just politely say, "It's my money, this is what I want, and I'm getting it, and it will work out." Maybe it becomes a topic of light bickering in the future, but going to couples therapy and focusing on something like this? ... idgi

Number two, if it isn't her money then it pisses me off (in this day and age) that a woman is expecting a man to financially provide for her. (Except in the case where she is disabled or dealing with an infant.) Or ... maybe she isn't expecting him to provide, but she doesn't keep her own money under her own control. But still, this is a bad power dynamic. I see women who are otherwise radical feminists engaging in it ... the dependence on a male partner for income and the comingling of money in inequitable ways. I know I have personal baggage on this topic, and some of the anger is coming from that place.

Number three, the paragraph itself ... it is lowkey infantilizing the woman (or at least positioning her as childish) ... "vivacious" "wants a slushy" ... the article is supposedly about how recent feminism and racial equity movements have changed relationship dynamics, and the first paragraph is positioning the woman as childlike ... maybe not a good thing to start with? Unless, the article wants to argue that these things are "not good" ... which uh, ouch. Not that.

sarahell, Sunday, 21 May 2023 13:17 (four months ago) link

one month passes...

apologies if any of the following is out of line, i know that as a trans woman i don't have the same experiences with reproductive health that (i hate this term but i can't think of a better one here) "afabs" do, but this morning this asshole cis dude was trying to mansplain women's healthcare to me and i kind of wrote this up, just to talk about the way my experience with healthcare has changed since my transition


if it's ok, i want to say something respectfully about my experience, again, as a trans woman and the way my experience with medical care has changed since my transition. there are a lot of things medical care providers benefit from knowing, and sometimes i get asked them and sometimes i don't. one question they _always_ ask me since my transition, though, is if i'm pregnant or there's a chance i become pregnant. what's interesting is that if i have a uterus, my answer to the question doesn't matter. if someone has a uterus, they have to take a pregnancy test, even for a procedure (for example, a nasal septoplasty) that has no relation at all to reproductive health.

quite honestly, the way doctors treat me is pretty shocking. in my experience, the overweening interest in my reproductive capacity is _qualitatively different_ from any other questions people ask about my body. honestly, i sometimes get the impression that providers are interested in the question of whether or not i am pregnant more than they are interested in _my own body and well-being_. and i _particularly_ have had this experience with (redacted), which, as i'm sure everyone here is aware, is a catholic organization, is affiliated with a church which seeks to restrict women's reproductive rights as a matter of religious doctrine.

and i think that, speaking from my experience as someone who formerly _didn't_ have those experiences and now _does_, it is extremely important to me that cisgender men listen and take women (and gender expansive individuals who find home in women’s spaces) seriously when we talk about these experiences. and it is important to me that they acknowledge that our lived experiences give us knowledge and expertise on this subject that they simply _do not possess_, knowledge and expertise that _i_ did not possess before people started treating me as a woman.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 July 2023 18:54 (two months ago) link

My experience with medical care as someone who has a uterus is when they ask if I'm pregnant or could be pregnant, and I say no, they have just taken my word for it and dealt with the non-babby stuff that I was there to see them about. So, it sounds like it varies depending on provider.

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 20:04 (two months ago) link

However, I have a friend who is a trans-man who had the most traumatic experience with the US medical system regarding the female parts he was born with when he was around 50. He did not want to go into detail and I respected that but .... that is a whole other thing that I know you, Kate, have probably also experienced as a trans person.

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 20:07 (two months ago) link

However, I have a friend who is a trans-man who had the most traumatic experience with the US medical system regarding the female parts he was born with when he was around 50. He did not want to go into detail and I respected that but .... that is a whole other thing that I know you, Kate, have probably also experienced as a trans person.

― sarahell, Saturday, July 15, 2023 1:07 PM (eleven minutes ago)

i haven't experienced that sort of thing firsthand, honestly! i don't have any horror stories. no massive trauma. no wanton cruelty. it's one of those things... i think of myself as lucky, but then i have a friend who _has_ experienced massive trauma and she considers herself lucky because it's something she can't deny, dismiss, diminish. i've just had an endless series of what they used to call "microaggressions". i never liked that term, that phrasing, because it implies both intent and sort of minimizes the impact of this stuff at the same time. it's the kind of stuff, honestly, i figure most women will know the sort of thing i'm talking about - the assumptions, the careless comments, those little tells that just reinforce the underlying message women have gotten since birth - the idea that women are inferior, women are flawed versions of men, women have a _role_ and that role is and always will be _defined_ by men. transphobia just adds on top of that the message that i'm "not a real woman".

it's a difficult needle to thread... marginalized groups, everybody's experience is different. i'm talking with a friend, she's processing the abuse she suffered in her marriage and through that lens i'm kind of trying to process and come to grips with the way i was abused, and the framing she's looking at it through is the lens of transmisogyny. it's a term i have reservations about, mostly because i'm a descriptivist and "transmisogyny" to me evokes a decade of tumblr arguments, mostly between transfems and transmascs.

so in some ways yeah, as a cis woman you're not going to understand a lot of what i experience because that's not part of your lived experience, but at the same time it's important to me that we _do_ have a lot of things in common. "transmisogyny" implies a categorically different form of misogyny and i don't experience it like that. i experience certain _forms_ of misogyny that cis women don't face, but mostly it's kind of the same misogyny that cis women face, there's just more of it.

cis women, or AFABs if i wanna generalize it more, i believe that they categorically do experience forms of misogyny that i as a trans woman don't, and i think there's sometimes some resentment about that. like AFABs get consistently beaten down with the whole "women are inferior" message in _so_ many different ways from _birth_ and for me, i only started getting that message at age 43. (structurally i had privilege and a certain amount of ignorance but i never viewed women as being inferior in any way to men. my view of women was mostly, i mean, envy and imposter syndrome.) and probably there are certain advantages to not having gone my whole life being told i was inferior _because of my gender_. (i have a long history of abuse and of being told i was inferior, that's an idea i deeply internalized and am still trying to heal from, but _most_ of it wasn't because of my gender.)

that said, in practice it's just _not_ the advantage people who talk about me having "male privilege" or being "socialized male" think i have. in some ways it's a real _disadvantage_, even though i was raised to be a feminist, to be aware of patriarchy and the ways it oppresses women, the sudden, actual experience of that, and more than that, of knowing how _completely arbitrary, stupid, and pointless_ misogyny is... that does hit me pretty hard, and me trying to express that sometimes gets interpreted as me trying to talk over the experiences of cis women who have experienced this all their lives.

plus, a lot of normative masculinity is stupid and i was kind of conditioned to do and think a lot of stuff that became actively dangerous to me the second i started transition. any "male privilege" i'd been socialized with is shit i had to unlearn real fucking quick. going for a walk alone on the streets at night? not anymore you're not! most women my age have decades of experience learning how to keep themselves safe in a world that's systemically hostile to women. i don't have that experience. i don't envy anybody who's spent decades being systemically beaten down by misogyny, but someone like that _is_ going to have survival skills, honestly, that i just don't.

basically i think women, and even more broadly _all_ marginalized groups, _do_ have a lot of things in common, and while it's important to acknowledge our differences, seeing those differences as absolute, as us as being alien to each other, it frustrates me because what i really want is for us to be able to stand together to oppose the oppression we all face in differing ways. sometimes it is appropriate for me to step aside, for cis women's experiences to be centered. criminalizing abortion, that affects me as a trans woman, it's not just about "reproductive rights" but about actively asserting control over the bodies of women and gender minorities. in practical terms i don't have reproductive freedom and never have. most of the time i choose not to assert that, a ban on abortion affects trans people but it isn't a Trans Thing.

the same way, transphobia _does_ affect cis women, the way transphobia gets justified just seems to keep coming back to defining women as baby factories, which, maybe some people call that "feminist" but it isn't. these aren't different things, our experiences of oppression aren't alien to each other, we do have a common interest.

i'm talking a lot because i'm putting off taking a shower and going to pride. it's fucking _hot_. really fucking hot.

anyway. it varies, but i really do think this stuff affects all women and gender minorities in some form or another. even if we're not overtly aware of it.

Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:32 (two months ago) link

Oh it definitely is a thing ... I should have phrased it as "I must be extremely lucky because I haven't had that experience!"

sarahell, Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:42 (two months ago) link

A lot of the oppression aimed at cis women isn’t even universal - restrictions on reproductive rights only affect women of reproductive age with that ability, not every cis woman is capable of pregnancy or wants to. I grew up with family close who have difficulties with some of these matters, so due to this I maybe have a little less essentialist view of the subject than I might otherwise have.

I don’t think that this is a difficult ask of any cis woman.

The point about these oppressions often crossing between different groups is a good one. In the UK anti-trans groups targeting various measures are open about their desire to eliminate Gillick competency (the right of a child to opt for their own medical treatment in certain circumstances, the case that this hinges on was a young girl who wanted to take the pill against the wishes of her highly religious mother). I think also growing up in Ireland where the groups keeping abortion illegal are the same as the group pushing against trans rights makes things clearer.

Kate I want to think about your other points which touch on some difficult territory and I think have been exploited successfully by anti-trans groups. I’ll come back to this.

(who is an amazing ice cream maker by the way) (gyac), Saturday, 15 July 2023 21:54 (two months ago) link

Kate I am a cis woman who finds your space-sucking on this thread and elsewhere off-putting because I associate it with crap dude behavior. Honest Q: does this put me into TERF territory?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 16 July 2023 02:56 (two months ago) link

Quincie: Short answer is no, but it _is_, to my mind, indicative of internalized transphobia. Oh, also, _thank you_ for saying that.

Long, space-sucking answer follows.

One of the biggest challenges I have as a trans woman is that things get essentialized and reduced to my gender. So for instance, I'm really acutely aware that my logorrhea is off-putting, that I'm taking up space and making people, particularly people who are for gendered reasons _encouraged to be discreet, silent, not to speak_, feel uncomfortable speaking. And maybe part of that is that I was encouraged, as a "man", for most of my life, to be loud, to take up space. There's a lot more to it than that but I don't want to get off-track here.

And on top of that, since I'm a trans woman, there's this sense that you express, this _absolute concern_, that one is being "transphobic" if one criticizes a trans woman at all. So just as your question was sincere, I want to sincerely thank you for speaking up. Speaking as someone whose trauma manifests in BPD-like behavior, one of the things I struggle with most is maintaining healthy boundaries. I'm bad at it, and I rely a lot on external feedback, both positive and critical. I don't know how many people have left silently because I never shut up. I can't know that.

And that's the reason for a lot of my inappropriate behavior, honestly. I bounce all over the place between spaces because I don't want to overwhelm any one space, I don't want to make other people feel uncomfortable (and then I do anyway). I'll overengage with a place, like I've been doing here, and then ghost because I feel ashamed of my behavior.

My behavior is, I'd say, informed by my experience and history with gender. Where the internalized transphobia comes in is the tendency to reduce my gendered behavior to "that's just like a man". You're not alone in feeling that. My impression, honestly, is that most people feel that way, and that's not indicative of _individual prejudice_ against trans people. To me, though, it _is_ a sign that we were raised with transphobic norms. Using my name and pronouns doesn't erase or negative the bigotry we were all implicitly raised with.

That's the hardest thing for me to deal with. The things people think and don't say, and I know people think it, because it's what I was raised to believe, because I think it too. Someone says they're a trans woman and _logically_ one can be trans-affirming, one can think "oh, yes, trans women are women just like anybody else", but there's some connection buried deep down in the brain that says "trans women are men". No matter what we look like, no matter what we sound like.

It's the accidental misgenderings that hurt the worst. If somebody intentionally calls me a "man", they're just being an asshole. Their opinion doesn't count. If someone slips up without thinking and refers to me as "he", that hurts more. And I know how difficult it is, because four years and I still do that, with transmascs in particular. That's transphobic of me. My brain has this persistent belief that transmasculine people are women. I know, rationally, that's not true, but rewiring that internal connection... it's a lot of work.

So that, to me, is the important thing. We are all biased. We were all taught to be biased. When people are like "Oh I'm not transphobic", like it's a matter of individual virtue? Fuck that! We're all transphobic. Which is one of the reasons I never fucking shut up about being trans. It exhausts people, I know it does, like Kate we know you're trans, not everything is about you being trans, shut the fuck up already. It's possible, and probably common, to both _value_ my _perspective_ and still be like, Kate, girl, you've been talking for twenty minutes straight without taking a breath. Could you just, like. Breathe for a minute?

It's a tough balance to strike - a lot of this shit _is_ really important for me to talk about and my lived experience gives me the ability to talk about it that a lot of other people don't have, a perspective a lot of people don't have. I really want to push back against these assumptions and stereotypes that all of us have, that everyone here has spent decades being taught, to be _nuanced_ about this stuff. But also I never fucking shut up. And the BPD, the BPD sure as hell doesn't make it any easier.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 16 July 2023 15:21 (two months ago) link

I think there's also a spectrum though ... like, one of the positive things about "they" and people identifying as non-binary, is that it calls attention to that. There are a lot of differences in terms of "taking up space" and how much we were taught we could take up within the category of "cis-women" ... I get that a lot as a white woman interacting with BIPOC people.

And Kate, for me, I sometimes feel uncomfortable with the length of your posts, esp. with regards to fraught topics, because I often don't have time to read them all the way through, and I feel like I should do so in order to give a respectful response, and then I don't respond, and then I feel awkward? Because it's clear you're going through some heavy shit and you've been having some serious problems! And I want to be a compassionate person and show you that you are cared for and valued.

sarahell, Sunday, 16 July 2023 21:17 (two months ago) link

I am gonna do a long-ass response to it but I'm gonna do it in the "Uncorrected Personality Traits" thread, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread particularly. :)

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 03:19 (two months ago) link

Kate, you have been way more kind to quincie on this than I feel. I get why she might not like your long posts, fuck, I even get why she might feel like they're space-sucking. But to add that gendered element to it - yes, I think that's transphobic as fuck and awful. Incredibly fucking awful.

emil.y, Tuesday, 18 July 2023 12:56 (two months ago) link

Kate, you have been way more kind to quincie on this than I feel. I get why she might not like your long posts, fuck, I even get why she might feel like they're space-sucking. But to add that gendered element to it - yes, I think that's transphobic as fuck and awful. Incredibly fucking awful.

― emil.y

i think that's a really good perspective as well and i'm glad you were able to say that! (i know that's therapy-speak, i just don't know how to express my feelings _without_ lapsing into therapy-speak haha).

that's kind of what makes it difficult to talk about this stuff in a public forum, what makes twitter such a hellsite (or made twitter such a hellsite, i guess, now apparently it's elon musk who's making twitter a hellsite. i appreciate the concept. like why do people always want to remake _good_ movies? why remake _all the king's men_, that's already a perfectly fucking good movie. why not make _escape from the bronx_? that's the way to do it. except that for all its hellishness twitter did occasionally have, ahem, _redeeming social value_. by which i mean communism.)

sorry. haven't had coffee yet. the point is, you say something and one person will be ok with it, more than ok with it, and somebody else will think it's incredibly fucking awful, and even if the question is directed at _me_ personally other people's experiences in a public forum are important! that's what i struggle with sometimes when i make myself vulnerable and choose to say things that reflect on me poorly, but are true.

well anyway i can only speak for myself and i do think i'm gonna double-down. getting that feedback _was_ emotionally difficult and made my day more challenging in the short-term, but in the long term it gave me the opportunity to say some things i'd wanted to say for a long time. like it's a paradox but transphobia actually _has_ helped me a lot. and i'm gonna start out by phrasing this in the extreme form, so i want to say up front that this _isn't_ how i feel about quincie.

all of the worst, shittiest things transphobes say about me were things that i internalized, that i believed about myself. hearing _them_ say it helped me examine those beliefs more critically. because i looked at the people saying these things and i was like, "wow, all the people who believe these things about me are incredibly terrible people. i'm not an incredibly terrible person. the people i look up to and admire don't think these things about me, in fact, they think the opposite. maybe i should listen to the people i like and not the people who are awful."

that's not the point of similarity here, the relatable thing is that i had a _whole lot_ of internalized transphobia. it was a tremendous weight i was carrying. i hated myself a lot for being trans. when other people started hating me for being trans... i know personally the weight of that hatred. i'm really happy that other people are, of their own volition, willing to carry that weight, particularly given that it's their fucking weight to begin with, not mine.

the stuff quincie said, that's stuff i've thought about myself for a long time. that's a really strong concern i've had, that i'm "acting like a man" by talking and explaining incessantly. quincie expressing that, externalizing my internal transphobia, taking on the _weight_ of it, is something i'm really grateful for. unlike with the radical transphobes, i don't think that makes her a bad person. i don't get the sense that she's "just asking questions", either. this is a space that _is_ affirming and welcoming to trans people. by asking the question she asked within that context, it really made me feel safe to address it in detail. to, uh, respond to accusations that i'm "space-sucking" by "space-sucking" some more.


so ok, i'm gonna get really controversial here. there's this sort of implicit assumption that trans women's goal should be to be as much like cis women as possible. and cis women are amazing, i love, respect, and admire cis women. and lust after cis women too, because, yeah, i'm very lesbian. the thing is, a lot of the shit cis women are raised with is fucking misogynist patriarchal bullshit, decades upon decades of that, and i don't view not having been directly beaten down and taught to think of myself as categorically inferior to men for decades as being a deficiency i need to remediate.

i don't think the solution here is that i need to be quieter - i think cis women need to be louder, angrier, god since last june i've _felt_ the fucking rage so many women have, and we're not supposed to feel that, only _men_ are supposed to be enraged. my favorite aunt gave me a book a couple years ago called "Burn It Down: Women Writing About Anger". this is fucking bullshit and the fucking fragile-ass _men_ are trying to say that _they're_ the ones who get to be enraged, _they're_ the ones who are being done wrong, and FUCK. THAT. one of the things that really connected with me hard last year, i talk a lot about it, is a 1994 essay by susan stryker called "My Words to Victor Frankenstein Above the Village of Chamounix: Performing Transgender Rage".

it's more complicated for me than that, as it turns out. see, the thing about my behavior being categorized as "male behavior" is that i didn't get this from men. i got it from my mom. she's a cis woman but she's also Not Like Other Women. she's one of those libfems who believes in "equality" and took that to mean "i can do anything a man can do" and put that into practice and suffered a lot for that, for being outspoken the way a man is. and also suffered because, well, she's an awful, abusive person. she's also where i got my rage. she taught me that, by abusing me. my rage _isn't_ clean. it's _justified_, we _all_ have a right to it. i have to be very, very careful with it. it's addictive to me, addictive like alcohol is to my youngest sibling. but it's something we all fucking _need_ and _deserve_ right now.

and that's another thing i admire about quincie! as much as she's calling me out for space-sucking, she's being loud, she's being outspoken, she's not conforming to how women are _supposed_ to behave, we're all supposed to get together and watch "the sisterhood of the traveling pants" and honestly i'm more of a thelma and louise kind of girl. refusing to call each other out in the name of "solidarity", that's the kind of game i played for a long time and it's not good. if we got differences, if we got distrust, i think it is both _possible_ and _important_ to name them, to name them honestly and with kindness.

and to me, that's what quincie did. to me, that's preferable to me swiping right on cis women on Her and just wondering why none of them ever seem to swipe back. i mean cis women all live with that, that fear of being _A TERF_, and that's what I really wanted to say, that for quincie to say what she said _doesn't_ make her a TERF, that these are misconceptions, prejudices even, that a lot of cis women have and are under a lot of pressure to pretend they don't have. I get that, I was raised with a lot of prejudices, and I _know_ I have prejudices, and I struggle to not be ashamed of them. Because I'm not a bad person, I was just raised with some stupid bullshit, and I don't know how to get rid of or challenge that bullshit without naming it and taking accountability for it. Which, again, is what I feel like quincie is doing here.

And by the way that's one of the reasons for my space-sucking. I do a lot of explaining things, and it _looks_ a lot like mansplaining (just like BPD _looks_ a lot like narcissism sometimes). I'm not interested in that. You can't change somebody else's mind by lecturing them. I explain things because that's how I _learn_. It's, like, _the_ most single effective method of learning. I do see it as a positive good, I want there to be more of it. Womansplaining. Not explaining as _discourse_, explaining as a form of _learning_, of challenging ourselves.

Anyway I know all that is just gonna piss more people off, with them I'm in a hole and I won't stop digging, but there is _something else_, something else I'm really wanting to get at. And I don't know how to do that without digging myself further into a hole when it comes to how they think of me.

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 15:04 (two months ago) link

I explain things because that's how I _learn_. It's, like, _the_ most single effective method of learning.

I totally get this. As in, it's something I do, and it's something a number of my friends do as well. And, being on the receiving end, does make me more self-aware of how I am, and how I can be annoying, maybe?

One of my friends that does this a lot to me, I will sometimes get frustrated because he is very loquacious. And I will ask him, "Does it matter that I am here listening to you?" As in, I am present for this conversation, but it is mostly his monologue and I'm supposedly the audience, but, am I really? Or ... as the audience, do I get some agency here? Can I like, fast forward through some of it?

sarahell, Tuesday, 18 July 2023 16:21 (two months ago) link

Need to catch up but I am glad to have been called out because I didn’t see that my comment could be interpreted as non-affirming of Kate’s gender identity. I sincerely did not mean that and really apologize for angst I caused

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 19:27 (two months ago) link

One of my friends that does this a lot to me, I will sometimes get frustrated because he is very loquacious. And I will ask him, "Does it matter that I am here listening to you?" As in, I am present for this conversation, but it is mostly his monologue and I'm supposedly the audience, but, am I really? Or ... as the audience, do I get some agency here? Can I like, fast forward through some of it?

― sarahell

i mean as long as the other person is clear that they don't actually need me to listen or respond i'm fine with it. my primary calls it "rubber-ducking". i guess it's something programmers do, they try to explain their code to like a rubber duck on their desk and that's how they manage. nobody actually listens with rapt attention to every single thing their partner says, right?

Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 July 2023 20:04 (two months ago) link

three weeks pass...

What’s up with Lume deodorant … I feel like I am missing something?

sarahell, Friday, 11 August 2023 17:18 (one month ago) link

Or am I the only one here who gets lots of ads for this product?

sarahell, Friday, 11 August 2023 17:19 (one month ago) link

i get them too and i totally dont get it

here 1st (roxymuzak), Friday, 11 August 2023 17:56 (one month ago) link

It’s apparently great at preventing swamp crotch

just1n3, Friday, 11 August 2023 18:09 (one month ago) link

*sad lols*

Hopefully that link works

just1n3, Monday, 14 August 2023 08:33 (one month ago) link

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