no boys allowed in the room!!!!

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YEAH! I'm in so what do we do in this here room then?

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:22 (thirteen years ago) link

talk about makeup and boys and lisa frank stuff

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:23 (thirteen years ago) link

User BIG HOOS aka the steendriver has been successfully banned from the thread

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:24 (thirteen years ago) link

is this where we talk about shoes and dryer sheets

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:25 (thirteen years ago) link

in a word: y

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I am down with talking about all those things.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0G0KeGZNnU0/SOkLif0annI/AAAAAAAAAJE/P4llZRVs8yQ/s320/8baeded0.gif

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

and swiffers

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i hate the swiffer btw

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link

You hate the Swiffer? I was thinking of gettin' one tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:27 (thirteen years ago) link

i dunno maybe it will improve your life but my mom got me one and it had a neutral effect afaic

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:28 (thirteen years ago) link

i wish clarissa from clarissa explains it all posted here

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:29 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm glad oprah doesn't post here except i would like to suggest ban her

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (thirteen years ago) link

MJH was a bitch to me (as covered on another recent thread) so I don't have that much <3 for Clarissa :-(

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (thirteen years ago) link

JTT <3333333333333333

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (thirteen years ago) link

I totally had this game btw:

http://collegecandy.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/girl_talk_box_cover.jpg

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:33 (thirteen years ago) link

also we can make those paper fortune tellers and tell each others fortunes, in fact i am gonna make one right now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (thirteen years ago) link

who are:

lisa frank
mjh
clarissa

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (thirteen years ago) link

haha what was the other game that was kinda like girl talk but it had men u could date?

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (thirteen years ago) link

x-post OK yeah, am definitely up for doing that.

GOD DAMN:

http://www.styletraxx.com/JamesFranco.jpg

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i recall having this but i don't believe my mom would let me have it so i'm confused
http://www.boardgamesrus.com/images/Mall%20Madness%20G61.gif

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (thirteen years ago) link

xpost justine:

lisa frank designed crazy school supply items like some of the dolphin-festooned things you see on this thread, she was v popular with middle school aged girls in the early-mid 90s

melissa joan hart is mjh, she played the title role in "clarissa explains it all" which was a popular nickelodeon television show for the same age of girls at roughly the same time

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (thirteen years ago) link

i hate to be gabbneb, but i actually did briefly date a guy who kinda looked like james franco, esp as he is in this picture:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1940000/images/_1944248_mate_pa.jpg

anyways he was mad dumb

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:37 (thirteen years ago) link

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:39 (thirteen years ago) link

right??????

man i so rarely like a pinup type of dude it is kinda cool when i do cause then you can like commiserate about it with other girls

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (thirteen years ago) link

LOL yeah he's defintely just well . . . dreamy.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (thirteen years ago) link

dryer sheets?

yes james franco is a universal.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:41 (thirteen years ago) link

he's 2 years older than me?!

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (thirteen years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah what's the with dryer sheets? I'm allergic to most fabric softeners so I have to use hippy dippy all natural stuff that doesn't work all that great but is at least something.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (thirteen years ago) link

how old r u

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i hate dryer sheets, they are pointless

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (thirteen years ago) link

i don't like anything that makes things smell like anything!

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (thirteen years ago) link

Mr. Franco and I are 4 mo. and 10 days apart in age and I believe he's currently attending my alma matter.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (thirteen years ago) link

damn erica lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (thirteen years ago) link

en vaporisateur

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (thirteen years ago) link

hahahaha touche

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (thirteen years ago) link

yall check out this creepy ad btw:

http://rgh.cc/albums/userpics/10001/%5Bcreepy%5Dloves-baby-soft-ad-c1976.jpg

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (thirteen years ago) link

(wait - I dind't actually know that . . . I looked it up just now. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was some franco-obsessed crazy person)

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (thirteen years ago) link

ew rapey

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (thirteen years ago) link

xp

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (thirteen years ago) link

ok yeah, that is exceptionally creepy

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (thirteen years ago) link

sorry i wasn't clear, grief _not_ despair, grief as an alternative to despair.

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:53 (three months ago) link

"but then later, there was me and there was another queer woman in the channel, in 2020, and he got really _upset_ at _us_ because he didn't like the way we were talking. and he demanded that we stop doing that. it was, like, our fault. our fault that we were _angry_. before transition, anger was the only emotion i was allowed, and now, since transition, it's really clear to me that anger is an emotion that i am _now_ allowed."

fuck. sorry, i make these typos and it makes the meaning the opposite of what i meant, _not_ allowed

Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 30 June 2022 18:53 (three months ago) link

I look at this board maybe once a week as habit. There are what, 20-40 active users at a time it seems and I no longer actively participate so I have no reason to say how people should try to behave or make it a better place since I tuned out. If I want to talk in-depth about a topic I go to a subreddit or discord or slack. I don't think ilx is set up for that but people obviously still prefer it here to other places. Probably due to no reactions to your posts and not needing to see notifications of your name. It's like a passive aggressive place to be.

Yerac, Thursday, 30 June 2022 19:35 (three months ago) link

many xposts LL i am still here, alive & well

i engage in the threads i like to engage in, talk to the ppl i like to talk to, and try not to take too much of anything else itt on board. (i have to do this for my own health)

if ppl respond or don’t respond to me i dont take it personally. there’s plenty of times that i read a post & have nothing to add, doesnt mean ppl dont engage w it in their own way.

sorry if that’s too charitable pvmic i guess idk

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 June 2022 21:19 (three months ago) link

oh there are definitely still people i like here, but I also see them other places. Part of this I think is just the culmination of a lot of stuff eroding and final frustrations after so many years. Since it's the same people posting here you already know their schtick and their repetitions and maybe politics just finally broke ilx. Like, I really don't need to know what the dude that plays with his genitals at work thinks about Ruth Bader Ginsburg in context of abortion bans.

Yerac, Thursday, 30 June 2022 22:33 (three months ago) link

Truth

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 1 July 2022 00:30 (three months ago) link

Yay VG
Your presence makes me happy 😃

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 1 July 2022 01:07 (three months ago) link

Yay VG
Your presence makes me happy 😃

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Friday, 1 July 2022 01:07 (three months ago) link

+1 to the girl count, and +1 to the yay VG! count. Reading here pretty much daily but only a handful of threads. I've also avoided the SCOTUS and politics threads for years.

Jaq, Friday, 1 July 2022 01:40 (three months ago) link

can't think of a greasier slide straight down to the pits of despair than talking politics w/ cishetdudes, if others wanna take up that burden i wish them strength but i ain't throwing myself on that trashfire

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 03:05 (three months ago) link

no offense to the allies, i just feel my oxygen mask slipping off any time conversation turns that way

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 03:07 (three months ago) link

you know what i think? you know what i really think?

_there is something wrong with cis men_

i don't think it's just that manhood wasn't right for _me_. i look at cisnormative masculinity and i think this is something that doesn't work for _anybody_. us most of all. their patriarchy hurts us most of all and that's what's most important, but it doesn't work for _them_ either. so many of them are even worse at being men than _i_ was. they are so broken, so fragile, so _hurt_, but you can't tell them that. you can't tell them that because if you tell them that they will get _angry_ and they will _hurt us_.

i love men so much, but it's not _safe_ for me to be around cis men. i can't help them. i have to walk away.

really happy for nd stevenson though. i'm so happy for nate, it's so so awesome.

Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 July 2022 04:23 (three months ago) link

seems 2 me like all the gender straitjackets are designed to drive their inhabitants bonkers, ideally in ways which reinforce the patriarchal paradigm

bule bulak oying (cat), Friday, 1 July 2022 06:54 (three months ago) link

I really don't need to know what the dude that plays with his genitals at work thinks about Ruth Bader Ginsburg in context of abortion bans

omg ... this is so great ... i am laughing and laughing ...

sarahell, Saturday, 2 July 2022 21:38 (three months ago) link

Hi bbs!

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 2 July 2022 23:53 (three months ago) link

I'm kinda still here but mostly can't be arsed. The same ol stuff in threads doesn't appeal.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Saturday, 2 July 2022 23:58 (three months ago) link

hey you! every so often i think about this post you made in response to some ilx woman's shitty boyfriend issues that was something like "there is no laurel buffet" like, you are not obligated to be accommodating to the dude, if you aren't getting what you want from the relationship. ... i think?

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 05:51 (two months ago) link

Wow, I had forgotten that quip but I like it! I hope I said it about one of my own shitty ex-boyfriends tbh.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 13:14 (two months ago) link

i think it was inspired by one of your own iirc

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 15:58 (two months ago) link

It's a long list.

I'm personally in a space of wondering whether it's worth trying to have relationships w men because I'm just so tired of having *that* conversation over and over again. I think this is driven by my having basically moved in with my bf of many years during the pandemic. We're not great for each other 24/7, we need some space between us. I've been gone for about 2 weeks traveling and stuff, and tbh it sounds like he has a really healthy routine set up for himself and I feel the same.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:10 (two months ago) link

It's more expensive for me to live in the city so staying w him was something of a cost-saving measure while I'm trying to get employed again. Not ideal.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:11 (two months ago) link

Is it that the two week break made you realize you don't want to return to how the relationship was? or that you can only see the relationship growing/ continuing if you have preplanned time apart.

Yerac, Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:17 (two months ago) link

Let's just say for now that the reason it was possible for us to make the 8 year mark was that we weren't together all the time and, speaking for myself, I had time to nourish myself with my other friendships and wasn't trying to get so much of my socialization from one person.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:24 (two months ago) link

yeah, and I guess it is also a difficult thing to gauge because of the extremes of the last two years.

Yerac, Sunday, 3 July 2022 16:35 (two months ago) link

if i'd had the vocab during my teen years i might have gone with non-binary bcuz of not identifying with any of the standard """woman""" archetypes, but now it's whatever

totally, I was the same (I probably posted about this a bit way upthread)! and welcome cat!

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 17:37 (two months ago) link

ay! (☞゚ヮ゚)☞

i remember that laurel post too! i took it as, like, prospective s.o.’s don’t get to pick and choose which parts of you to take on, it’s the whole enchilada o nada, and i thought that was very cool

bule bulak oying (cat), Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:35 (two months ago) link

yes! your memory is probably more accurate.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:48 (two months ago) link

I also remember! Such an apt expression, love it.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:49 (two months ago) link

I take anti-anxiety meds (which also help with some low-level OCD stuff) and I don't remember things as well as I used to ... for the most part, this is a very good thing.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:49 (two months ago) link

the meds also enable me to scroll past and/or ignore annoying and potentially enraging ilx content without having to figure out how to use killfile. It's kinda like my approach to alcohol consumption -- try to do it in moderation with "cold turkey" being the last resort if I can't do moderation.

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 18:52 (two months ago) link

yeah, and I guess it is also a difficult thing to gauge because of the extremes of the last two years.

― Yerac

yeah COVID deffo played a big part in tanking my marriage. as far as meds i've started shit-tons over the past couple years. finally acknowledged that yeah i'm bipolar, started taking a mood stabilizer. got diagnosed with adhd, taking adderall for that. the stuff that's helped most is the HRT, honestly. it's changed the way i process anger _so much_. like, being angry makes me physically weak now.

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:00 (two months ago) link

what mood stabilizer?

sarahell, Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:02 (two months ago) link

lamictal

Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 3 July 2022 20:35 (two months ago) link

hi! still intermittently here, mostly just lurking. hello everyone! hope you're well! hope absent former regulars are well too! hi & welcome cat!

if i'd had the vocab during my teen years i might have gone with non-binary bcuz of not identifying with any of the standard """woman""" archetypes, but now it's whatever

Yeah, add me to this list. Might conceivably have gone further than "non-binary"; when I was a v small kid I really wanted to be a boy, or even thought I was a boy and there was just some mystifying cosmic clerical error resulting in everyone else pretending otherwise. Loved when old ladies mistook me for a boy and hated when my mum corrected them. As a teenager I heard the words "is that a boy or a girl" bellowed down the street or across a party at me pretty frequently and cursed my fat hamstery freckled cheeks and ginger hair for not being gamine and gothic enough to pull off the cool kind of androgynous.

And now I'm content to be a straight cis middle-aged woman, or at least if I'm not content it's not due to the gender part. But when I was younger I had some proto-terfy ideas because I thought "I've never felt like a woman but nobody gave me any choice about it, so anyone who thinks they do feel like a woman is making some kind of category error", and you know what? I was wrong, the category error was on my part, and I'm sorry.

(esp sorry bcz I think I posted some dumb offensive shit on ILX along those lines which I apologise for and hope nobody ever reads again, including me, so I'm not going to go looking so I can apologise in the right place tbh)

So yes, I fell for some early terfy "what about the tomboys?" articles/sentiment, and then noticed a lot of the people who said that were apparently very cool with harrassing trans people & unsure kids & insufficiently feminine-presenting women alike, and now apparently they're having horrible ideas about checking teenage girls' underpants before sporting events - so really fuck those people, and good for the tomboys and the unsure kids if they have more options open to them to explore and hopefully a more accepting world to explore them in (or not, I mean OK, some signs aren't good, maybe even a lot of them, but there's still been a lot of progress in this respect since I was a teenager). All for it. Good luck to 'em.

Sorry, went off on one there. Just babbling away to myself, same as it ever was.

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 5 July 2022 19:04 (two months ago) link

Yeah, add me to this list. Might conceivably have gone further than "non-binary"; when I was a v small kid I really wanted to be a boy, or even thought I was a boy and there was just some mystifying cosmic clerical error resulting in everyone else pretending otherwise. Loved when old ladies mistook me for a boy and hated when my mum corrected them. As a teenager I heard the words "is that a boy or a girl" bellowed down the street or across a party at me pretty frequently and cursed my fat hamstery freckled cheeks and ginger hair for not being gamine and gothic enough to pull off the cool kind of androgynous.

― a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, July 5, 2022 12:04 PM (yesterday)

So this is the thing, this is the difficult thing for me to talk about.

It took me 43 years, give or take, to figure out something which is in retrospect blindingly obvious: I'm a woman. Why did it take me 43 years? Because I was misinformed about gender, misinformed about what determines it, what it _is_. Specifically, I was _not_ ever told that gender and genital anatomy are not the same thing. It took me a _very long time_ to understand, accept, and internalize this basic fact. The idea that gender and genital anatomy were the same thing was a fundamental, axiomatic part of my worldview. The truth of the matter is that I was, myself, transphobic, that I still struggle with what is termed "internalized transphobia". The false beliefs I internalized are _persistent_, persistent in myself most of all.

The difficult thing is knowing that the deck was not just stacked against me, but against fucking _everybody_. I never really got to ask the question, consider the possibility. And by the time I could, well, I had a lot to lose from it. It was, really, desperation that led me to exploring my gender. I'd been miserable, fucked up, for a very long time, for no reason I could figure out, and I'd tried pretty much everything else. CW: self-harm I figured it'd kill me, but fuck it, I figured I didn't have long to live anyway.

And this is in some ways the worse lie, the lie that being trans is _bad_. That we're _cursed_ and _miserable_ and that gender exploration is, for a lot of us, a last resort.

That's painful for me to watch. People have the absolute right to self-determination, but something like gender? That should be a _first_ resort, not a _last_ resort. The bias was so pervasive, so universal, where I think... Honestly? I think _every single cis person_ should re-evaluate their gender identity. Ask the hard questions. People ask us over and over again "But what _makes_ you trans?", and the snappy answer is "OK, but what _makes_ you cis?". Both those questions are stupid questions. They're not answerable, and we don't need to have answers.

Even the _labels_ get in the way, a lot of times. Gender is experimental, but there's this huge bias against experiment. Right now most of the people who question come to the same conclusion, and I think that's a _systemic problem_. I am really in favor of genderfuck, not just for "trans people" or people with "gender dysphoria" but for ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY. Get a new haircut. Take a new name, new pronouns, different clothes, different approaches to body care, not _because_ of anything but just for the hell of it. Because we were told it was the worst thing on earth, but in fact it doesn't do anybody any real harm, and it can do us a _hell of a lot of good_.

When I see someone say something like what you say above, spacecadet... I know this is dangerous, I know this might be taken the wrong way, but I would _encourage_ you to see what happens if you rephrase that "might have gone" to "might go". I'm not _diagnosing_ or offering any _opinion_ in any way on these things, but the things you list off are... pretty common experiences a lot of trans and gender diverse people have.

Because here's lie #3, to the extent that any of us were taught about "gender dysphoria", what we were taught about it was... grossly _inadequate_ and _misleading_. I think it would particularly be of benefit for everyone, cis, trans, everyone, to understand gender dysphoria more accurately. The Gender Dysphoria Bible at genderdysphoria.fyi is a great resource. Again, this is _not_ something _anybody else_ can diagnose in someone else, any more than someone else can diagnose me with The Gay, but most of us didn't have the tools at our disposal for healthy understanding of our gender, and nowadays these tools are available.

Not trying to get into your shit here. This is just stuff everyone... ought to know, but most people don't.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 6 July 2022 18:15 (two months ago) link

idk for me, a lot of it was "why would I want to be the gender category that is marginalized and oppressed? why would anyone want to be this if they could choose?" I think the reason I had gender dysphoria growing up and periodically as an adult, is less about wanting to be male, and to have male anatomy, but because men had power, had more opportunities, and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to drive a forklift and play drums, I didn't want to be able to grow a beard or have a dick.

I am seeing a lot more people in my community get gender affirming surgery (and doing crowdfunding if its something they can't afford to pay for), which makes me think this is something that is way more accessible now than in decades prior ... which I think is great. I feel like that shouldn't be a barrier, if it allows someone to be more comfortable in their own body.

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 July 2022 18:56 (two months ago) link

idk for me, a lot of it was "why would I want to be the gender category that is marginalized and oppressed? why would anyone want to be this if they could choose?" I think the reason I had gender dysphoria growing up and periodically as an adult, is less about wanting to be male, and to have male anatomy, but because men had power, had more opportunities, and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to drive a forklift and play drums, I didn't want to be able to grow a beard or have a dick.

I am seeing a lot more people in my community get gender affirming surgery (and doing crowdfunding if its something they can't afford to pay for), which makes me think this is something that is way more accessible now than in decades prior ... which I think is great. I feel like that shouldn't be a barrier, if it allows someone to be more comfortable in their own body.

― sarahell

Right. I mean, this is also what makes it difficult to talk about because of, my favorite phrase as a data analyst is "confounding variables". Just because someone has had experiences that a lot of people who have gender dysphoria have doesn't make them gender dysphoric. It's more that... if there's any possible _other_ explanation for something besides gender dysphoria, trans people will just _immediately_ gravitate to that, just because trans people are so fucking marginalized and hated.

Patriarchy and misogyny make being a woman really difficult and it's eminently reasonable to hate being a woman because we have to deal with this bullshit for, well, basically no fucking reason. Cis men have it a lot easier. It's kind of a weird thing for _me_ of all people to talk about because yes, patriarchy and misogyny suck, I hate them, and I am... pretty vehement about opposing them, but at the same time being a woman is still really important to me.

But there's also this overhang of... I mean, being a man isn't about driving a forklift or playing drums, there's no reason women can't do either of those things, but it's also not about growing a beard or having a dick! Most trans guys don't have bottom surgery. A lot lot lot of transmasc people don't take hormones.

I will note also that what a trans person wants - hell, what _any_ person wants - can and often does change over time! For a long time I thought I couldn't be _really_ trans because I didn't want bottom surgery, and here I am having actually had bottom surgery. I was talking to a transmasc friend a couple weeks ago and he talked about the pressure he faced to go on hormones as a trans man in the '90s. It was shitty that he faced that sort of pressure to do something he didn't want to do, and a TERF will look at that and say "see? IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE" but it's more complicated than that in practice. Hormones weren't right for him then, but he's taking T now. He's older, wiser, and he's making an informed decision about what's right for him. The trans community is, as well, has grown wiser over the years, and that sort of pressure to start taking hormones just isn't something I've observed in practice since starting transition myself a couple years ago.

It gets really difficult because the way transmasc erasure works is different from transfem erasure, there's this idea that it's a _betrayal_ of a _sisterhood_ to not simply, straightforwardly, and uncomplicatedly be a woman. Your TERFs of the world will say, correctly enough, that you can drive a forklift and play drums and still be a woman, but if someone just doesn't _want_ to think of themselves as a woman or be seen as a woman by others, why the fuck should they have to?

(The way we are seen by others is a _really important_ component of gender that gets a little thrown under the bus by "born this way" narratives. I benefit greatly not only from understanding myself as a woman, but by being _recognized_ as a woman by other people - this is a big source of what is often termed "gender euphoria".)

There's this sort of implicit question of _motive_ underlying gender stuff, and to me it's just... irrelevant. I'm not out to destroy gender or anything like that. Womanhood _works_ for me. I function better and am happier as a woman than I was when everybody thought of me as a man, and in that sense, I do think there is some value to the idea of gender. The _norms_ of gender, though? Obliterate them. Smash them into a million billion pieces. Terrible, awful little things.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 6 July 2022 21:59 (two months ago) link

i picked up this concept from some feminist author æons ago, to which i strongly related & which i will now awkwardly paraphrase:

when people who were raised as girls start being treated like women (i.e. when men start sexually objectifying you to your face) they feel this horror of becoming alien to themselves. they had been kids, but apparently now the outside world is classifying them as Woman, and Woman is a scary gross weird intimidating thing to be: the vamp who makes the wolf's eyes pop out of his skull, the nagging harridan wife, the bitter dried-up spinster, the gauzy angelic impossible girl-next-door ideal, etc.

these had all been The Other but now suddenly it's supposed to be you. but you still feel like you, so that can't be right, but then what are you? so a lot of girls try to hold on to their identity with variations of "I'm a person, not a woman" to forestall their personhood being subsumed by these female cultural totems.

but then if you're lucky/privileged you can get old and stop caring, except insofar as government & employers & family & doctors & dangerous randos on the street are concerned

similar nightmare stuff for people raised as boys, maybe

fucking gender norms imo

i REFUSE to pay for my own cbd (cat), Sunday, 10 July 2022 21:45 (two months ago) link

these had all been The Other but now suddenly it's supposed to be you. but you still feel like you, so that can't be right, but then what are you? so a lot of girls try to hold on to their identity with variations of "I'm a person, not a woman" to forestall their personhood being subsumed by these female cultural totems.

similar nightmare stuff for people raised as boys, maybe

fucking gender norms imo

― i REFUSE to pay for my own cbd (cat)

not ime, this is like what male privilege means to me, that they are always fundamentally viewed as _people_ in a way that women aren't. that's been one of the weirdest experiences of my transition, at age 43 suddenly all these guys see me as a fetish object and it's just like _why_? that's the aspect of dealing with misogyny i didn't really get pre-transition, the aspect of "dude what even is _wrong_ with you, can you just like not be weird and creepy?" i was talking about it with a friend yesterday, like i never really got along with guys in a social setting but you come out to guys and even if they're not transphobes they get really awkward, like you can see the gears in their brain churning going like "wait, am i supposed to want to fuck her now?" todd, it doesn't _matter_, i'm not going to have sex with you, there's nothing to think about here.

Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 11 July 2022 15:57 (two months ago) link

oh hai I just wanted to say that I really appreciated everyone's posts which gave me a lot to think about and a lot I agreed with! and I was full of enthusiasm for replying to various points once I worked out where to start

and then my mood/energy crashed again and I didn't post anything, but I didn't want anyone to think I'd been scared off/upset by/just plain ignoring their very good posts. I'd really just have been posting 3 pages of quotes interspersed with "yes, this" anyway tbh, so I'll just put "yes, all of this!" here and hope it will suffice (for now, or maybe in general)

fucking gender norms imo indeed

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 11 July 2022 22:22 (two months ago) link

todd, it doesn't _matter_, i'm not going to have sex with you

irl lol ... and otm re the male privilege. ... women (at least in my vague recollection of Lacanian theory related to film) are always the imaginary (the fantasy, the object of projection) ... as opposed to men, who "get to be" the symbolic and can construct identity through language and narrative (in that they control such things)

sarahell, Tuesday, 12 July 2022 00:34 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

Every time I come back here it’s a mistake. Male discomfort will always be prioritised over female pain here.

Osama bin Chinese (gyac), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 20:43 (one month ago) link

A reflection of the world we live in :(
Sucks. I’m finally at the point where I don’t think the benefit of casual jib jab outweighs the vom factor.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:19 (one month ago) link

I don't know if it's getting worse, I'm noticing it more, or if I'm getting more and more outraged at essentially the same thing as I get older. (In general, not just here)

kinder, Tuesday, 16 August 2022 22:40 (one month ago) link

My ability to call out bullshit has improved — my detection has always been strong but when it came to calling it out I would often find myself too vulnerable/upset to say anything. I don’t care why (probably age) but idgaf anymore.

Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 16 August 2022 23:59 (one month ago) link

Obviously I don't have much of a personal perspective on whether or not it's getting worse. It's one of the things that keeps me coming back here, honestly, knowing that I used to be like that myself. So guys behaving like that, I don't think it's a gender thing at all, I just think it's pure uncut ignorance. It fascinated me enough, what went down Sunday, that I wrote a 3,000 word essay about it Monday morning.

I don't know. I want to believe it is better. I want to believe that the men who do take us seriously - and a lot of men don't - take us more seriously.

Probably the first time I understood this aspect of being a woman... I don't remember when exactly it was, but it was before my egg cracked, before I even came out to myself. I made some entirely innocuous, milquetoast statement looking at things from... just looking at things from a woman's perspective, seeing things how a woman might see it, over on Reddit. Jesus I got downvoted so fucking hard on that one. Like we're talking Kelvin levels of karma on that post. That was about the time I quit posting to Reddit.

What surprised me most about the response on Sunday was that it was only about one or two people, only one guy really, and someone actually angrily pointed out to him how egregiously, ludicrously awful what he'd said was. Yeah, it was "That's my sister you're talking about, asshole", the thing where you have to basically _personally attack a guy's sister_ for him to take offense, but I mean, a lot of guys, they won't even stand up for their own sister that way.

I like that ILX is a small board, these days. I think on a larger board I would've been dogpiled for saying the stuff I said. My feeling is less "I can't believe people can be that awful" and more "I can't believe I got away with saying the shit I said". Maybe I'm too pessimistic about men, but I spent 40 years listening to what they said about us behind our backs, when they thought we weren't listening. Compared with what I heard there, the stuff on this board is... encouraging.

That's why I'm here, mostly. I don't really spend a lot of time around cis men. It's sort of... a controlled, safe environment, for me. No transphobia, not enough people left for a dogpile. It's as close as I get to feeling safe on the public Internet.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 00:32 (one month ago) link

For me, June really brought it home just how much they fucking _hate_ women. I mean, I knew they hated _me_, but it's not just me, it's not just women _like_ me, it's _all of us_. That's what I took from June. Even though June wasn't, by and large, anything to do with me, it still changed me.

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 00:35 (one month ago) link

oh shit you were talking about a _different thread_ i see now

Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 01:17 (one month ago) link

My ability to call out bullshit has improved — my detection has always been strong but when it came to calling it out I would often find myself too vulnerable/upset to say anything. I don’t care why (probably age) but idgaf anymore.

fwiw i really appreciate all of you on here who are still calling it out. my default response these days is eye roll, "close tab".

Roz, Wednesday, 17 August 2022 02:28 (one month ago) link

Apparently I missed something? Ah well, probably for the best.

I have lost a lot of tolerance for bloviating, which makes some posters just too much for me.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, 17 August 2022 04:30 (one month ago) link


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