no boys allowed in the room!!!!

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YEAH! I'm in so what do we do in this here room then?

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:22 (eleven years ago) link

talk about makeup and boys and lisa frank stuff

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:23 (eleven years ago) link

User BIG HOOS aka the steendriver has been successfully banned from the thread

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:24 (eleven years ago) link

is this where we talk about shoes and dryer sheets

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:25 (eleven years ago) link

in a word: y

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (eleven years ago) link


I am down with talking about all those things.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (eleven years ago) link

and swiffers

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (eleven years ago) link

i hate the swiffer btw

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:26 (eleven years ago) link

You hate the Swiffer? I was thinking of gettin' one tbh.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:27 (eleven years ago) link

i dunno maybe it will improve your life but my mom got me one and it had a neutral effect afaic

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:28 (eleven years ago) link

i wish clarissa from clarissa explains it all posted here

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:29 (eleven years ago) link

i'm glad oprah doesn't post here except i would like to suggest ban her

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (eleven years ago) link

MJH was a bitch to me (as covered on another recent thread) so I don't have that much <3 for Clarissa :-(

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (eleven years ago) link

JTT <3333333333333333

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:31 (eleven years ago) link

I totally had this game btw:

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:33 (eleven years ago) link

also we can make those paper fortune tellers and tell each others fortunes, in fact i am gonna make one right now

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

who are:

lisa frank

where we turn sweet dreams into remarkable realities (just1n3), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

haha what was the other game that was kinda like girl talk but it had men u could date?

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:34 (eleven years ago) link

x-post OK yeah, am definitely up for doing that.


Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (eleven years ago) link

i recall having this but i don't believe my mom would let me have it so i'm confused

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (eleven years ago) link

xpost justine:

lisa frank designed crazy school supply items like some of the dolphin-festooned things you see on this thread, she was v popular with middle school aged girls in the early-mid 90s

melissa joan hart is mjh, she played the title role in "clarissa explains it all" which was a popular nickelodeon television show for the same age of girls at roughly the same time

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:35 (eleven years ago) link

i hate to be gabbneb, but i actually did briefly date a guy who kinda looked like james franco, esp as he is in this picture:

anyways he was mad dumb

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:37 (eleven years ago) link


Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:39 (eleven years ago) link


man i so rarely like a pinup type of dude it is kinda cool when i do cause then you can like commiserate about it with other girls

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (eleven years ago) link

LOL yeah he's defintely just well . . . dreamy.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:40 (eleven years ago) link

dryer sheets?

yes james franco is a universal.

horseshoe, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:41 (eleven years ago) link

he's 2 years older than me?!

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (eleven years ago) link

dryer sheets and other products for the home lol

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:42 (eleven years ago) link

yeah what's the with dryer sheets? I'm allergic to most fabric softeners so I have to use hippy dippy all natural stuff that doesn't work all that great but is at least something.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (eleven years ago) link

how old r u

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (eleven years ago) link

i hate dryer sheets, they are pointless

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (eleven years ago) link

i don't like anything that makes things smell like anything!

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:43 (eleven years ago) link

Mr. Franco and I are 4 mo. and 10 days apart in age and I believe he's currently attending my alma matter.

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (eleven years ago) link

damn erica lol

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:44 (eleven years ago) link

en vaporisateur

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (eleven years ago) link

hahahaha touche

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (eleven years ago) link

yall check out this creepy ad btw:

The Neb-U-Taunt Ball (roxymuzak), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:45 (eleven years ago) link

(wait - I dind't actually know that . . . I looked it up just now. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was some franco-obsessed crazy person)

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (eleven years ago) link

ew rapey

harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (eleven years ago) link


harbl, Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (eleven years ago) link

ok yeah, that is exceptionally creepy

Fennec fox which does grooming (ENBB), Sunday, 21 June 2009 01:46 (eleven years ago) link

Interesting interpretation of some of the posters as cis, but since when did knowing what you’re talking about ever stop you offering an opinion?

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:05 (four months ago) link

Nothing I say is ever going to change your mind about who or what I am. It is pointless to carry on this discussion.

Please put me back on killfile and I will do the same with you.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:07 (four months ago) link

This is a total waste of time, as engaging with you always is. I can italicise so that it makes it very clear I’m referring to a specific context, but it doesn’t fit the argument you want to make, so in the bin it goes.

Look, continue on your merry way, this is really my own fault for innocently clicking to unblock your posts, thinking I’d see what you had to say (that’s my famous intolerance of difference again!), it’s clear you have no intention of reflecting on your behaviour or changing in any way, and it’s not worth talking to someone with less emotional intelligence than your average teenager.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread, I won’t bother posting here anymore.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:08 (four months ago) link

Kate specifically said that she left ILX because of Tombot's moderation. You can believe trans women, or not.

But continuing to scream at a trans person for disagreeing with you, a cis woman, about what transphobia is and isn't, is *definitely* the way to fight transphobia on ILX, yes, 100%.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:23 (four months ago) link

The only person screaming is you, and referring to “the board” in her comment implicated you, again, and I would argue more so, given that you went off on her in a thread that was supposed to be a safe place. I’d suggest you’re so stuck on this particular point because you don’t like having your behaviour challenged or questioned in any way, but that would be misogyny or something. You can try this all day with me, but someone who can’t reflect on their behaviour isn’t going to be remotely capable of an honest take on someone else’s. Sorry!

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 09:27 (four months ago) link

What happened between me and Kate on the trans thread, was a *mutual* disagreement, between two trans people – where we both decided to do the mature thing, and end the conversation respectfully, rather than continue to risk hurting each *other*. That *both* people in that conversation felt the conversation was becoming painful and decided to end it – but you only seem to care about the feelings of *one* of those parties?

Are you even aware of the level of blithe presumption, that you, a cis woman in a heterosexual relationship, are repeatedly lecturing an actual trans person on what was and wasn’t transphobic?

When you yourself display such ignorance that you cannot seem to tell the difference between "trans person trying to reconcile their own feelings about their recorded past under their deadname" with "deliberate deadnaming by a cis person".

(and if you want a specific example of the latter, go and read the full trans thread, and you will see D-40, swinging into a specifically trans thread to deliberately deadname one of the people that asked for the thread to be started. This has been going on a long time.)

If you were, actually, confused as to why I revived the thread, the appropriate thing to have done, would have been to say something like, "hey, Branwell, you’re normally pretty sensitive about your deadname – what’s with the revive?" You *didn’t* challenge me. You didn’t even question me. You don’t seem capable of treating me like a vulnerable human being with needs and sensitivities, you aren’t capable of treating me like a rational actor with motives you haven’t grasped – you treat me like an unexploded bomb, because *you* are too frightened or threatened or just plain unable to handle the fact that you just ~just don’t like me~ to ask that direct question, instead of reacting with "WTF" and passive-aggressively sniping and directing others to go to the poll to lower the FP margin. Instead of stopping to ask "what *is* happening here?" you have already pre-decided the worst possible interpretation, and that it needs to be punished - but it's me who can't handle conflict? Really?

If you have already decided that I’m a monster, then everything I do will seem monstrous to you. That does not make me a monster. And I’m not interested in proving my humanity again and again to someone so determined to monster me. Now good day to you.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Friday, 11 September 2020 13:29 (four months ago) link

Sorry, how was I directing others to the poll? That’s conspiratorial thinking. Don’t bother answering that, because I would really prefer you not reply to me ever again.

You seem to disregard, once again, the fact that I am not referring to deadnaming, either by people past or present, but a separate incident where the name in question was used by someone else. Deliberate deadnaming is disgraceful, imo, and I will never defend it.

I thought you were going to killfile me, but you determined to have the last word, so here’s mine: you’ve finally posted something I agree with you on, about treating you like an unexploded bomb - which actually I said upthread already. Except it’s not just me, is it? Don’t you notice how people don’t engage with you much, or how they just don’t get into it as much? That’s on you and how you interact with people, even people who agree with you a lot. But again, I sense I’m wasting my time typing this.

Oh and anyone who is reading this and who disagrees with this characterisation? If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 13:41 (four months ago) link

I don't want to sound like Tiny Tim but I value every person's POV on this thread, Branwell included. I generally find it hard to keep up with who's said what to whom on other threads so apologise if I'm missing egregious behaviour; sometimes I need things spelt out. I wish, in general, disagreement didn't have to be seen as attack - I think that would be the main thing keeping me from posting stuff, it's easier to just not say anything if I disagree with sth but I do still have this idea, accurate or not, of ILX being a place where posts can be taken at face value rather than 'oh so you think...'-type inferences (and I am not aiming this at anything in particular posted here recently!) running off on a tangent so the original post is forgotten (as I have noticed on other online communities).

I have times when I happy to butt heads with others (haha butt heads) and times when I can't be bothered, or more likely feel I don't have the full picture so best to watch and learn.

kinder, Friday, 11 September 2020 17:26 (four months ago) link

But no one seems to GAF when women or trans people leave.

What? I can think of several specific women mentioned when discussions of posters people miss happen.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:27 (four months ago) link

If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

it is and it isn't? Like, that is one of the things that people (mostly cis-white-men) complain about with cancel culture and "the new politeness" ... that they can't just be themselves and make the jokes they were used to making, that they now have to walk on eggshells and constantly police themselves in case someone gets offended. Considering you, gyac, seem very concerned about social justice and trans rights, I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

The way I try to think about it and act on it (not that I'm by any means a paragon) is that everyone's feelings matter and that some people have greater sensitivities and care more about different things. Like as if I'm hosting a party or something ... I want everyone to be able to enjoy themselves. Granted, that doesn't always happen, and people will rub each other the wrong way, and some people are just having a bad day or week or something ... idk, maybe this is a dumb analogy .. but I want to try to make it possible for everyone to be able to have a good time at the party and feel respected.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 17:55 (four months ago) link

I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

She's not! And I find it odd that you would think they are the same. I'm just thinking about my own experiences in my life with people who are volatile, and it's nothing like being unable to make offensive jokes.

Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:40 (four months ago) link

I think the issue is what that volatility looks like and where it comes from? I just felt super uncomfortable with the generalization that she was making! And I'm glad that someone called me on my generalization tbh, because I thought about breaking it down in a more differentiated way. ... Like yeah, there are people who are super volatile and that translates into abusive behavior.

And the issue is -- how do you deal with that if you have compassion for the person but you are tired of being on the receiving end of abuse? ... I think about the abusive people I've known. And most of them have suffered some major trauma in their lives.

My point with the "eggshells" response, is that there are people who you do feel like you have to walk on eggshells around, because they have suffered trauma, and it's a compassionate, thoughtful way to behave. In a lot of cases, the sensitivity required doesn't make the person requiring it a monster.

And I am not dismissing the feelings of resentment ... there is naturally, I think, a sense of things not being fair, that you have to figure out how to handle individually. It just ... depends ... and obviously ilx is just a message board, and we don't have the same obligations to one another as one would to friends or comrades or family (however you define it). I think the one rule is "don't be a dick," and I'm just saying, let's think about how best not to be dicks.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 18:57 (four months ago) link

I know I've posted about this a lot over the past few years, but, almost 4 years ago, 36 people died in a fire at an underground show in my city, i was friends with a half dozen of the deceased. It was a super traumatic event for so many people I knew. And because thousands of people were affected, invariably, people responded differently to that trauma. And there were definitely really intense arguments related to people not being sensitive enough, etc. Thousands of people walking on eggshells around each other for ... a long time. And I have a dark sense of humor. My tendencies, in situations like that, are to make jokes to be able to deal with the horror and trauma and absurdity of it all, as well as to try to take productive action to fix things. And here was a situation where I had to be very very cautious about my sense of humor. Early on, I was talking with a friend of mine, who has similar coping mechanisms, and we came up with the shorthand "<3 and :(" (heart and sad) ... like this is a time where the way to be good people and compassionate -- publicly -- is to confine ourselves to "<3" and ":(" out of sensitivity to the way others process trauma.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:07 (four months ago) link

I’ll say this only once: I blocked you a good while back, sarahell, and your last two posts have just reminded me why that was a good decision. Please don’t reply to me again, I don’t want to click to read one of your posts, and I am only doing so because tokyo rosemary was kind enough to defend me against that, frankly, absurd, inane and insulting accusation. GUBU, as we might put it at home.

It’s interesting that you think sticking your neck out for someone who’ll never do the same back for you and lecturing us about being kind - as though none of us have trauma, our own stuff going on, as though it is the job of the mods to take this kind of responsibility for another person when they are neither paid nor qualified to do so. A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

In my case, my phrasing of the eggshells example was directly thinking of my own childhood, which was abusive at times, where it has taken me almost my whole life to start processing what had happened and get past it in some way. I actually feel disgusted at myself for posting this, but what can I say, I’m really sick of being talked at/past by people who have no idea who they’re talking to or about, or the kind of red flags their behaviour might raise.

Anyway, as I said, I’ve had you blocked for some months now, please respect that and don’t contact me again.

scampo italiano (gyac), Friday, 11 September 2020 19:15 (four months ago) link

I'm sorry you had an abusive childhood -- and I'm not actually "contacting" you -- like do you have some settings where you get notifications when you are mentioned in a thread? Like, idk, you are doing this thing that seems super passive-aggressive where you attack people, like super scathing over-the-top attacks, and then say, "how dare you respond?!" ...


A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

seriously, this is you right now.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:22 (four months ago) link

And really -- I don't mean those posts as "lectures" -- maybe they are lectures to my past self -- obviously we are all adults (with the exception of pestosock69420) and have different experiences and are thus gonna perceive things differently and respond differently ... like if there are dynamics here that are triggering you, gyac, I respect that. ... It totally seems like that's what's going on considering your vehemence about stuff that seems ... idk easier to shrug off for some people.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 19:29 (four months ago) link

sarahell, i don't think i knew about the fire. that's horrific.

kinder, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:22 (four months ago) link

anyway -- re-reading what I wrote, I probably did come off as condescending and prescriptive and I apologize.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:25 (four months ago) link

kinder - thanks for that. Yeah ... it was. It made me rethink a lot of things about how I wanted to be, what I wanted to do with my life, who I wanted to spend time with, etc.

sarahell, Friday, 11 September 2020 20:31 (four months ago) link

I have not slept well in a couple of days, but I am going to try to say this with as much compassion as I can.

gyac, I am sorry you had an abusive childhood. I am sorry you went through those things, and I am sorry they have shaped your reactions the way they have, and that you experience the responses you do.

At the same time, I am not your mother. I am not responsible for what you experienced. I am not responsible for things that you project onto me, because of your childhood abuse. If your childhood experiences are affecting you to the point where you are projecting them onto random internet strangers, again, I say this with compassion: please address these things in therapy. This shit is hurting yourself. (It is also hurting me.) This is, as Sarahell very wisely observes, perpetuating abuse rather than dealing with it.

In the past, I experienced bullying and targeted harassment - on ILX and other spaces - so bad that it left me with mild PTSD. Through seeking therapy, I have learned to manage my own triggers better, and I am far, far less reactive than I used to be. (And multiple people on ILX have reached out to me off-board, to say that they have noticed the change, so this is not just me tooting my own horn.) I've learned to be more open about what my triggers are, and recognise which ones are my responsibility to handle, and which ones it is valid and reasonable to ask others to negotiate.

Things it is completely reasonable to ask: "stop making rape jokes"; "don't misgender me"; "stop using these slurs, and avoid these tropes". It is NOT reasonable to ask another person to never disagree with anyone else ever again, because *you* are uncomfortable handling other people's conflict.

Do you know *why* ILX doesn't tolerate rape jokes any more? It's not because everyone collectively sat down 12 years ago and politely decided they weren't very nice, so everyone will just stop. It's because several people on this thread, myself included (my memory of people's previous screen names is not good, I definitely remember In Orbit, Roxymuzak, and several others - forgive for not namechecking evereyone - and a couple of dudes who were mostly survivors) stopped asking nicely, and started LOSING OUR SHIT very loudly when people made rape jokes, playing good-cop-bad-cop, having very public disagreements and yes, clusterfucks, and pushed things to the point where it was actually less hassle for moderators to step in and intervene and actively STOP posters from going around with screen names like "no means yes, yes means anal" (who else remembers that incident? anyone?) than to allow it to continue.

That process of "losing our shit" cost me a huge toll on my mental health, which was a thing I had to address in therapy, but it did work. ILX does, NOW, have way, way less rape jokes than the rest of the internet. If people feel they have to ~walk on eggshells~ around me, rather than risk making rape jokes - I'm fine with that. I feel that was a price worth paying.

Sometimes it is necessary to stop asking nicely. Sometimes it is necessary to disagree. Sometimes it is necessary to demand, without apology. Sometimes it is necessary to go through conflict. Without disagreement - growth, change, growing stronger, growing more flexible - none of these things happen.

I fully admit that my greatest flaw is that I am so used to thinking against the grain, that sometimes I get stuck in disagreement-mode. I'm autistic, changing gears is very difficult for me. It is a thing I am working on. I've tried to be honest about what works for me, and what exacerbates situations. I've tried to get better at "this is what I think is happening here, what do you think is happening here" conversations, but I am never going to stop being autistic. If someone cannot look at me doing that, and see "this is a confused autistic person, trying to work through a disagreement" but can only see "this is an unexploded bomb" - the problem is not me or my autism or my opinions or my tone. I cannot defuse bombs that exist in other people's minds.

Specific and Limited Interests (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 September 2020 07:45 (four months ago) link

No, your greatest flaw would be projecting your own issues onto other people and then loftily talking like you don’t do this exact thing all the time, over years and years and years. You think that you can act as though you please and nobody may say anything to you about it because they’ll get this torrent of irrelevant words, but I’m sick of it, and not a single word you’ve said to me has changed my mind or made me think I was wrong to say what I did. Not one!

Neither of you know what you’re talking about, but my God do you like to act like you do, and it’s, frankly, embarrassing for someone who is so blind to their own faults to lecture while ignoring the mote in their own eye.

Killfile me, please. I am not planning to interact with you, but if you are going to write this nonsense then you’re not going to leave it there as though it’s right. I really don’t need to read you bringing up grudges you’ve held from 12 years ago or whatever, because you think that that is important or it matters at all. Nor have you once answered the questions I’ve asked you. Don’t take that as an invitation to respond to me, by the way, because you haven’t done so previously.

Oh and really - since you leaned on the lurkers supporting you in email, I’ll do it too- numerous people have reached out to me over the posts I’ve made to thank me, which, idk, suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it. I didn’t bring it up for either of you to condescend to me like you care about hurting people on ilx - if you did, one of you wouldn’t behave as you do and the other wouldn’t follow you around enabling it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tl;dr - leave me alone, stop pretending you’re some sage or speaking from authority on anything let alone me, leave other people alone.

scampo italiano (gyac), Sunday, 13 September 2020 08:40 (four months ago) link

"Neither of you know what you're talking about" is a fairly patronising thing to keep repeating even if those people weren't talking about their own PTSD and tragedies. Is this specific to particular statements, as I'm unclear on what the actual source of disagreement is, other than Kate's reasons for leaving/hiatus from ILX?

I can't see you addressing a question to sarahell, and to Branwell you asked a question and immediately followed it with 'don't bother answering' and the others appeared to be rhetorical, at least in the last couple of days. I'm not saying this as an attack, I don't think I have any history with you gyac but this is me taking posts at face value and trying to figure out how we can keep this thread going with fewer misunderstandings or perceived attacks.

kinder, Sunday, 13 September 2020 09:34 (four months ago) link

It is interesting how you say “I’m not saying this as an attack”, but yet gloss over the rest of the things that were said, as though it would ever be acceptable to infer someone was making stuff up because of past experiences they’d shared. Only regret I have here is sharing that because of the obtuseness, but look kinder, if that’s the behaviour you think is most objectionable, then I don’t think we have much to say to each other.

scampo italiano (gyac), Sunday, 13 September 2020 09:44 (four months ago) link

Look, I'm just lost now. Who has inferred that someone was making stuff up?

The thing that I was qualifying as 'not an attack' was my pointing out that you had said 'nor have you once answered the questions I've asked you' but that I could see as an observer that any questions were not posed particularly clearly as inviting a response. The 'not an attack' was specific to that, as in, I'm not trying to get at you but to suggest that not answering the questions was not a pointed attack but more likely a difference in how the posts were read.

I mean the rest of it isn't an attack either but I'm not intentionally 'glossing over' things, it's more that this single, minor point I have tried to make was misinterpreted - I accept blame here as I must not be communicating in the clearest way - and has to prompt posts like this, so addressing further points would take up more time than I have, and I think I'll leave it there. My post was also intended as the start of a conversation, awaiting your response, not a summary essay on which behaviour was or wasn't objectionable.

kinder, Sunday, 13 September 2020 10:00 (four months ago) link

Sarahell, I do remember the fire, and I do remember you talking about it on ILX, with both a huge amount of emotional rawness and also great sensitivity and insightfulness and emotional intelligence.

I am sorry that you lost your friends, in such a tragic and horrifying way. But I also think the way that you describe being able to use that traumatic experience to redress and change things in your own life, and your own actions and interactions, is really moving, and I can only aspire to that level of emotional integrity. I really respect you for that.

Grebo X Performance (Branwell with an N), Sunday, 13 September 2020 10:35 (four months ago) link

suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it.

I am so sorry that you interpreted what I said that way -- I actually meant the opposite. Like, you, because of your experience, are seeing red flags and patterns that are real, that do exist ... and I don't see them or maybe I just don't see them as threatening, not because I am right and you are wrong, or that I am omniscient (even though I know I can come across as condescending to you) ... but because I am not attuned to those threats and patterns the way you are, because I had the privilege growing up of being able to ignore that.

sarahell, Sunday, 13 September 2020 17:47 (four months ago) link

xp Branwell -- thanks, that is very kind of you to say!

sarahell, Sunday, 13 September 2020 17:51 (four months ago) link

two weeks pass...

::does quick incense burning cleansing ritual to clear out residual bad vibes::

Non-Boys, I want to talk to you about a touchy subject - COMPLAINT

Do you feel that you are / aren't allowed to complain about things? Do you feel that your complaints will be resolved, or that there would be consequences for *you* if you complain?

The thing that brings this up is something rather silly, just a poor experience on AirBNB, but... still felt salient.

So I had to leave a 'negative' review on an AirBNB. There were multiple small, but significant things wrong with the flat, e.g. amenities that the flat was listed as having, but which were either not present or not working when I got there. (Wifi didn't work; washing machine was broken; the listing said there was a hair dryer when there wasn't!) To the point where it did impact my stay. So I felt it was fair to flag up these inaccuracies to other people who might stay there in the future. But as I wrote my review, I felt racked with guilt, like, was it fair for me to complain, the host was clearly doing the best he could, etc. etc. and that it was *mean* to point out the inaccuracies. So I ended up leaving a review that really accentuated and raved about the good things (the view was amazing!) but then pointed out only one of the things that wasn't working, but followed it up quickly with a compliment to the host to make sure my complaint wasn't seen as *personal*.

When I went back to the listing, I saw that the man who had stayed there before me had left an excoriating review, pointing out other failures that I hadn't noticed, and condeming the host as rude and unhelpful.

And there was a part of me that just went o_0 because ... you know, it feels like there really is such a double standard around complaint? That if I complain, I will be seen as an overly demanding 'Karen', that my complaint will be seen as a personal attack as me being mean or personally offensive to the person complained about - that the complaint will reflect badly on *me*, that my AirBNB guest rating will go down if I am honest about a negative experience? But then I see cis men complaining without a second thought, their complaints are taken seriously and viewed as honest reflections of poor experiences.

Does anyone else experience this weird thing around complaining?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 07:51 (three months ago) link

oh definitely! I am also wary of complaining because not only am I a woman, I'm a white woman, a middle-aged white woman ... like I definitely suffer from Karenfear (I bet this could be translated into a word in German lol).

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 15:37 (three months ago) link

I think there are different types of complaint scenarios though -- there are private complaints, and then those like the AirBnB one you talk about, where your complaints are public.

The latter type is where I am most wary like you were, because there are multiple factors at play, as you mention, right? There's the potential for unfair things to happen to other people as a result of your complaint, and then there's potential for bad things to happen to _you_ as a result of your complaint. And because of the public nature of it, you have next to no control over the responses to your complaint. You can easily imagine the worst responses, right, and then you think, "Is it worth it? Just to let people know these things?"

maybe that's just me idk

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 15:49 (three months ago) link

It's complicated, with algorithmic ratings, like I will *never* give someone a less than 100% review if I think it is going to affect their job or their livelihood? Because of exactly that - too high a potential for unfair things to happen to other people! (I don't know where AirBNB hosts sit in that livelihood-at-stake stakes?)

But with public complaints - it can be so fraught! Like, you have to do that cost-benefit analysis, of 'is the potential blowback to me going to be worth either trying to get this put right or warning someone else what to expect'? It both amazes and astonishes me that there really are people for whom such a public complaint is ~no big deal~ - did he not anticipate blowback, or did he just not care? So I don't think it's just you, but I do wonder how gendered this is. Like, I notice often in public, the way women in particular seem to have to apologise three times in order to express an opinion, especially a differing opinion. That to express not just a differing, but a negative, or critical or complaining opinion, in public? To internalise anticipated or potential bad things to the point of... sometimes it is not worth the bother, even potential bother, of speaking up and making the complaint. Is this a *thing*, and what is it doing?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 16:16 (three months ago) link

I definitely am less sensitive about doing this when the criticism or complaint is directed to a cis white male. Like, I think about the punching-up/punching-down aspect of it.

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:07 (three months ago) link

Not to over-inspect the mechanisms of making complaints in various frameworks, online, etc, but really if something isn't right or doesn't suit you or doesn't work, isn't the first thing to ask for it to be fixed? Like before it's too late to get the item or service or fulfill the function of whatever it is? Problem solving is not complaining imo but in order to be genuine you do have to come from the problem-solving mindset and not, like, a fault-finding one. But assuming you do that, and you just want the transaction to work properly for everyone's benefit, is that "complaining"?

Things should work the way they say on the box. If they don't, they should be fixed, or an effort or accommodation should be made, anyway. If that is rejected or not in good faith, then it's time for a complaint, surely?

The gendered stuff obviously exists, and sucks, and is not helpful for being in the world. :(

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:14 (three months ago) link

Frankly if an Air bnb is being advertised as having things it doesn't have, that's fraud. If the owner knew a thing was broken, they needed to tell you before-hand and if it was a major problem, offer you a discount or refund or whatever.

Otoh when it's, like, a survey from a call center about whether their employee was helpful enough, the only moral thing to do is give them the highest score because that's a shitty, punitive system that penalizes people for not meeting impossible standards.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:20 (three months ago) link

The thing about complaining that is punching up - complaining against a cis white male is the most dangerous form of complaint, in terms of how likely he is to punch *back*. (And also how himpathy will mean that he is as likely to be seen as the victim of your complaint, as you are to been seen as having a legitimate grievance?)

The AirBNB thing - it was all a bit... you know, I tried raising the stuff with the host, and didn't get very far. I don't think he *knew* the washing machine was broken until I tried to use it - and he did offer to let me use the machine at his house, but by the time I got that message, I had already washed my smalls in the sink, so I didn't put that in the review, but it just added to the general... this is more faff than I signed up for on holiday! But, like, the WiFi thing, the name of the network he gave me to log onto just didn't appear. And he kept sending me more helpful things and instructions, before finally telling me to google how to get onto a network. (Never mind that's a bit patronising, like - I do actually work in IT, but how is he to know that based solely on an old photo of a middle-aged female-looking person. Hmmm. Whatever.) When, actually, after doing some troubleshooting myself, the problem was - the WiFi hotspot itself only had reception in one room of the house, the room at the very back, away from the nice views. In the end, not having easily available internet in my living/sleeping area for a week didn't do me any harm, in fact, maybe it did me some good, being on holiday with very limited internet! But - for many people, myself included, the knowledge of "there is/isn't good internet" is a deciding factor in taking a flat, and that's the kind of thing *I* would have liked to have known beforehand, and I might have taken a different flat.

Hmmm, this is probably way too much unneccessary information about how much I asked for things to be fixed versus the end result of 'public AirBNB complaint'. Sorry!

But the line between 'asking for a problem to be fixed' and 'making a complaint' is not always very clear. And I do think that the *who* of who is asking, often tends to guide whose problems are viewed as fixable things requiring solutions and who is 'just complaining because they are a complainy old Karen'.

I am overthinking things, as usual, but as often is the case, I just really wanted a kind of temperature check from other people, about whether I'm overthinking again or actually noticing something!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:44 (three months ago) link

But expecting there to be Wifi, and a working washing machine, and a hairdryer, as advertised, when there were none of these things - is reasonable grounds for complaint, yes? Just wondering why I *felt* so unreasonable making a complaint!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 17:47 (three months ago) link

I definitely feel like that when the issue is with a person or a small business and have that thing you mentioned earlier that "maybe they are just doing the best they can" ... if it were a hotel chain, I would definitely feel less guilty complaining than re an apartment owned by some dude. ... but oh geez, the thing with the Wifi and the dude obviously not knowing he had a problem or how to fix the problem and then being condescending, especially considering the troubleshooting of internet connections is not an esoteric skill. Like, if dude had given you instructions about how to fix the washing machine or suggested a helpful workaround, that would (to me at least) be less annoying than assuming technical ineptitude re the wifi. ... I might have put something in the review in a "damning with faint praise" style about that. ... Actually, I probably wouldn't have said anything, because I am kinda lazy in that regard.

sarahell, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:18 (three months ago) link

Anyone that pays money for an accommodation with wifi and a washer is going to expect those things. It's not complaining if you didn't get what you paid for and you tried to fix the problem. If the previous guest had left a review saying there was no wifi and the washer didn't work, would you have stayed there?

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:29 (three months ago) link

I mean for SURE the complaining gender gap is real.

Also, in a related way, there are people who are very comfortable asking for whatever they think they can get until the other party says "no," and there are people who are extremely reluctant to ask for things in case the answer is "no" and it inconveniences or distresses the other party. I think of the former as "assholes" but the former thing of the latter as "passive aggressive," or so I've been told. :DDD

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Wednesday, 30 September 2020 18:41 (three months ago) link

If the previous guest had left a review saying there was no wifi and the washer didn't work, would you have stayed there?

No, I absolutely wouldn't!

And this is what is grinding my gears about this specific instance, now that I think about it more carefully - that after I booked it, the host contacted me to say that the current guest was being a PITA because the television wasn't working. And he said, if that was a problem, I should just cancel, no charge, and find somewhere else? And I wrote back and said, well, I don't really watch television so that wouldn't be a problem, but I do need internet - was there WiFi? And he wrote back to assure me that yes, there was WiFi, everything would be fine!

And I got there, and obviously everything was NOT fine, and *now*, I'm wondering - like, did I end up trying really hard to be a GOOD guest, and not complain or be a PITA, because I didn't want to be like his previous whiney guest (who it turned out, actually had a point to his whining, I doubt it was just the television that wasn't working!)

Like, that goes along with your point about ask/guess cultures. And sometimes you can try so hard not to inconvenience the other party that you end up inconveniencing yourself, and feel put out about it. Or so *I've* been told. ;)

Anyway, I should stop worrying about this AirBNB thing, like I'm sure he hasn't given it a second thought, and anyway, Scotland was great, the Highlands are super pretty and I did have an amazing view, with my great-great-great-grandfather's tombstone glowering at me across the river every morning at breakfast!

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 30 September 2020 19:29 (three months ago) link

two weeks pass...

I've been reading the new Kate Manne book, _Entitled_, and it is absolutely amazing, it picks up many of the threads in Down Girl and runs with them. There's so much in here that is so relevant to so much of what has been going on... ::gestures at everything::

I really want to start a Kate Manne thread, but I think it would either be a) a ghost town because no one I ever talk to has ever actually read her or b) strong chance it would turn into a clusterfuck of feelings about ~the thread starter~ and their ~presumed opinions~ and naught to do with Kate Manne and her brilliant arguments at all. There have been so many times recent on ILX where I want to just get out a Manne book and quote her (usually any time anyone mentions the word "misogyny") ad lib, but I just think her thoughts are too important to be tarred by association with an unpopular poster.

But still, Kate Manne is brilliant, and I want everyone to read her.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 08:19 (three months ago) link

I've heard of Kate Boy but not Kate Manne :)

kinder, Friday, 16 October 2020 09:56 (three months ago) link

Haha, yeah, it's funny that the person who founded Health At Every Size is called Linda Bacon, and the woman who writes most effectively and eloquently about misogyny is Kate Manne? What's the word for that, when you wonder if someone's name somehow shaped or affected their path in life?

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 10:13 (three months ago) link

I'm going to end up doing that thing, where instead of putting my comments on the thread(s) that inspired them, I end up putting my comments here, mostly because I don't want to deal with the resulting clusterfuck and FPs - not against what I'm saying, but because it's me saying them. But if I don't say *something* it ends up thoughtworming my head until I can't think about anything else.

Here's Manne on the differences/similarities between Sexism and Misogyny:

Misogyny should be understood primarily as the “law enforcement” branch of a patriarchal order, which has the overall function of policing and enforcing its governing norms and expectations. (...) Sexism should be understood primarily as the “justificatory” branch of a patriarchal order, which consists in ideology that has the overall function of rationalizing and justifying patriarchal social relations.

In this picture, sexism will tend to discriminate between men and women, typically by alleging sex differences beyond what is known or could be known, and sometimes counter to our best current scientific evidence. Misogyny will typically differentiate between good women and bad ones, and punishes the latter. Overall, sexism and misogyny share a common purpose — to maintain or restore a patriarchal social order. But sexism purports to merely be being reasonable; misogyny gets nasty and tries to force the issue.

This explains so many things - a) why women who are viewed as bad attract *so much more* misogyny than women who stick to the lines deemed correct or good positions for women. It's not just that they're Bad, they are ~bad while female~ so the criticism escalates and becomes more vicious because it invokes 'attacks on improper femaleness' on top of just 'criticism of doing bad things'. b) why people think it's OK or justified or even *good* that women who are Demonstrably Bad (e.g. JK Rowling, Theresa May) get so much misogyny mixed in with the criticism. And finally c) why so many women so will enthusiastically join in with Misogyny, even while they represent themselves as being against Sexism - policing the Bad Women is both a way of publicly and personally assigning themselves to the category of 'Good Woman'; and also one of the few ways that women can exercise power or control under patriarchy.

But it shows why this whole 'condoning, excusing or justifying misogyny against Demonstrably Bad Women' is such a loaded gun with two barrels. It doesn't just perform the function of putting down the Demonstrably Bad Woman. It performs the function of reinforcing that idea 'It's perfectly good and just and necessary to exercise misogyny against any woman judged and found Bad no matter whose those standards are'. It becomes OK to misogynise Any Woman You Disagree With because the standards are always double; it is always almost impossible for any woman to meet them, no matter how perfect. It is always a lose/lose proposition.

It *is* possible to criticism women without lapsing into misogyny, double standards, and the rest. But this is why so few people manage to do it. Under male supremacy, it feels *righteous* to weaponise misogyny against Bad Women, despite or because of the fact that that is literally what misogyny is intended to do - punish Bad Women and set an example for women who would like to be seen as good. Hence why it's so impossibly fraught for women facing both 'criticism and misogyny' to separate one from the other. They don't come with neat little lablels to differentiate one from the other.

Anyway, that's been my thoughtworm for the past week. But reading Kate Manne helps me manage that thoughtworm.

I think she's great and everyone should read her.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 10:54 (three months ago) link

It *is* possible to criticism women without lapsing into misogyny, double standards, and the rest.

yeah, totally! It's similar to the arguments elsewhere about fat-shaming. There are so many things you can say to disparage and verbally destroy certain US government officials -- that are horrible people that deserve the rage -- without making it about their weight or other "inferior" physical traits.

And I feel like some of it is just habit, in a way, this language is used because these are words and phrases that come most quickly to mind as being "punishing language" because of the misogynistic, white supremacist, homophobic, fatphobic (etc) nature of society. Like, when a fellow driver gets annoyed that I have inconvenienced them, they will often yell "fuck you, fat bitch" at me ... are they really thinking about the specific words they will use to express their anger? I dunno, but I doubt it, I think because "fuck you, fat bitch" is a common insult, it is what comes out of their mouth in the heat of the moment. Like, part of me feels like it's not entirely an internalized anger "at women" but it's partly about some form of pattern recognition or categorization -- like "this person is bad and also a woman" therefore I will express my anger in this way, because this is how we respond to "bad + woman" --- like, some insidious horrible version of "a baby cat is a kitten, a baby dog is a puppy ..." like mnemonics for names for things of different types.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 17:30 (three months ago) link

I don’t think you’d portray it in such a neutral light if you read the book. The pattern recognition *is* the thing.

She’s just done this whole chapter on the religious Right that draws parallels and makes explicit the logic of entitlements that links together both anti-abortion rhetoric AND bathroom bill style transphobia - which just made my head explode with its brilliance and clarity, and making sense of things that seemed nonsensical to me.

She’s just such an amazing thinker and writer!

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:01 (three months ago) link

oh, I am not saying that "neutrally" -- like, it probably sounds more neutral because it's text on a screen -- I guess what I was trying to say is just that there are habits of emotions and thought, and habits of language -- the words people use to express those emotional and logic patterns. Like, there are two parts to it.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:27 (three months ago) link

And the issues of "hate speech" and policing language do play a role -- because they affect the language habits of people, but the emotional/logic parts remain the same, but the expression of the misogyny will shift.

sarahell, Friday, 16 October 2020 19:28 (three months ago) link

Ah, my mistake - apologies for the misread. Thanks for explaining further, that makes more sense.

Branwell with an N, Friday, 16 October 2020 20:38 (three months ago) link

one month passes...

I just ordered this unusual menstrual cup to try - it’s disposable and it sits higher up than a normal cup. I’ve never bothered trying a cup before but the selling point on this one is that you can have sex while wearing it. I got a referral code that gets you $5 off if anyone else wants to try it:

just1n3, Wednesday, 2 December 2020 03:49 (one month ago) link

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