no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Oh, that's a cool direction her work is going. I am most familiar with her earlier work that is similar with the dots and large scale patterns but is more "domestic" looking -- and I was always ambivalent about it because of how stereotypically feminine it was.

though I think a significant amount of it was also how many imitators she has/had and how that style became a shorthand for communicating certain "ideas" and "identity issues"

whats the best reaction to someone mansplaining...laughing?

depends on who it is imo

Depends on whether it's someone you have to maintain a friendship / working relationship with afterwards.

If not, fix them with an utterly disbelieving stare, go "for real? no way?" a couple of times in a doubting tone before escalating to something like "you are actually trying to tell me this basic, dumb-ass shit?" in a how ignorant are you? tone of voice.

If it's someone I do want to stay friends with, I usually touch them softly on the arm, use the most gentle, babying "mother knows best" tone of voice, and inform them in an ever so slightly patronising way something along the lines of, you do realise every school child knows this, dear, but in a way that is humourous and laugh afterwards, like inviting them to laugh along with their embarrassment at having said something so foolish.

But basically, create an atmosphere where you make it plain that it's something you think they should be embarrassed about, that they are displaying their ignorance and assumptions.

i think this is what the phrase "no doi" was invented for, lol

i have a coworker whose mansplanations have steadily increased to the point where it just seems out of control. like no one can get their work done because he is roaming the halls telling people about ipads, iphones, siri, speakers, jazz, liquor, everythinggggg. i'm dying! but i think because of my reactions to him he doesn't do it directly to me that much. i can still hear him though.

I like to twirl my hair and do big faux-naif eye blink and squeak, 'tee hee hee – reallllly?' and if they keep going, keep up the act, indie feet, hip-rocking, 'haha oh my god you know soooooo much'
eventually they realize they're being condescending
either that or it's annoying enough that they stop just to get me to tsop

Ha! That is quite a funny way of handling it.

I kinda wish that faux-naif were a position available to me in order to pull something like that off - but I guess that's the point. To ramp up the faux to the point where it becomes totally obvious. But it seems like the possibility of the expected "oh gee really!" response might almost be real would make that approach more effective.

I mean, that is always the thing, though, with these kinds of discussions. That partly it's blowing off steam at frustrating situations (and it is necessary tension-diffusing to consider awful answers that make us laugh - the "punch him in the dick!" and the "set him on fire! Then mansplain to him how combustion works and how to avoid it, ha ha ha!") but trying to find workable responses.

But I feel this sense of... what is effective is this kind of game-playing. And maybe that game-playing is necessary, because if you say flat out to a dude, "you are mansplaining, please stop" then suddenly you open up the world of butthurt and "how can you insult me like that" and "you're the sexist here because you're using the word mansplaining!" So you have to get them to play this game where, by your actions, you get them to see how condescending their actions are, and never actually use the word, but somehow get them to realise "Wow, I am telling you something you already know, huh" and smile sweetly and go "Yes, yes you are" but in a way that doesn't damage their ego or trigger the mummy-cadenza. And part of my resistance to that is, I don't like game-playing, and I don't like feeling manipulative. And the other half of it is, like, man, this is just more emotional labour and 'managing the sensitive feels of people who are actually adults' is not in my job description.

But, y'know, you have to work out what is effective at stopping this behaviour, and do it, to the best of your abilities.

Kind of in a weird place today with a lot of stuff banging around my head right now.

1) I start a new job tomorrow, and mixed in with the sheer relief of working again after so long, and the usual excitement/nerves/anticipation is actual fear. And not even that normal "Gulp, I hope they like me" fear, but fear left over from the experience of my last job and how Badly Wrong that all went. (I have tried to avoid talking about the circumstances because: partly legal agreement not to talk about it in exchange for gardening leave and a good reference; partly because wanting to put it behind me and not dwell and move on, thanks therapy!) You know something is behind you, but once Really Bad Things have happened, it's hard not to avoid the cringe that comes with the knowledge that crap like that happens, and something being a possibility - but trying very hard not to let that possibility become an expectation. And also the thing of wanting to balance being an authentic person and living an authentic life, with not knowing how "out" I can be. I dunno. I've scrutinised the boss and the team very carefully, let them get a good look at me and who I am / what I'm like, and now I just have to... trust. Walk into it with good intentions and good expectations of others, and hope for the best.

2) this is kinda meta and meta is almost always a bad idea. But. This isn't about any specific thread or poster, it's just a slow feeling. One can get so used to having the same conversations over and over on the internet and it's like bashing my head against a brick wall and the feeling that it changes nothing, except it just wears me down and makes me bitter and jaded and unhappy. But then, for once, you actually see the slow, imperceptible shift in culture become perceptible. That after 5, 10 years of saying "X, and Y, and Z" and being told you're crazy, you're mad, being called names and told to fuck off and how can you say these things, that isn't true. And you open a thread with a sinking feeling, thinking "I'm going to have to say X, and Y, and Z one more time" and then seeing someone else, a man, has actually said X, and Y, and Z and people are discussing that maybe X and Y and Z are true. And there is a strange mix of feelings. Partly relief, of actually, all that bashing one's head against a wall was not in vain, something has got through. But then, partly of annoyance, and "couldn't we have got to this point without the 5, 10 years of me bashing my head against the wall, and all the wear and tear on me, and the name-calling and the damage." And the prickle of annoyance at dudes who were ripping you to pieces 5 years ago are now blithely trotting out your arguments as if they never resisted them. Like, yes, people change, and culture slowly changes, and it's all a process, and things are moving, but slowly, and that movement is good and what you've wanted all along, and it doesn't matter how the ideas got in, but at least the are out there now and in the currency.

But at the same time, jesus, was all the wading through shit really necessary.

I guess I just have to think about things that I changed my mind on, and how I'd want to be judged on where I am now, not what I said in an angry moment 5 years ago. (Broken record: it's hard to give people the benefit of the doubt that you are so rarely afforded.)

Anyway, new job tomorrow, a great sigh of relief from some quarters that I won't be around on the internet 24/7 any more!

Great sigh of relief to your pocketbook and I hope working again re-writes some mental scripts for you w/r/t workplaces!!

Oookay I just accidentally put this in the foodies & appropriation thread which is funny. But here is the actual post:

The anti-street harassment project I've been so excited about for the past year+ is at

http://brooklynmovementcenter.org/anti-street-harassment/

We finally finished our foundation documents that state who we are and what we believe, in ways that we agree on and think will hold up to criticism and also give us a framework for the projects and causes we choose to take on. (We also have this long complicated decision-making process document bc we do everything p much by consensus but in a year, let's say, if we got bigger and then had some disagreement, we want to have bylaws already to deal w it.)

So I guess...viola!

We are currently comprised of cisgendered women who consistently face street harassment. Our intention is to address the ways in which men harass women, queer, trans, and/or gender non-conforming people in our neighborhood’s public spaces. We understand that street harassment is a type of gendered and sexualized violence and that our work is one part of a larger movement to dismantle patriarchy’s effects on our lives. We seek to work in solidarity with individuals and organizations whose approach to violence works for and not against our values, our mission and our vision for the community we are working to transform.

And the prickle of annoyance at dudes who were ripping you to pieces 5 years ago are now blithely trotting out your arguments as if they never resisted them.

THIS.

good luck Branwell

I spoke too soon. :(

Got the contract yesterday afternoon, and the first thing I saw was a massive dealbreaker: they expect a 45 hour work week (9 hour days) as standard.

I mean, FFS, that is the kind of thing that I usually ask at the first stage interview to weed out exploitative no-work-life-balance employers. But I didn't, because I was so convinced at the first stage interview that they were not interested. (That was a total miscommunication, but I'm starting to wonder about that.)

And the headhunter is being pushy about it, and if there's one thing I hate, it's a headhunter that tries to overrule or talk you out of your stated limits. I know that's the headhunter, and not the employer. I mean, it's consent issues, always, isn't it? Whether it's a sex partner trying to ignore your stated boundaries because ~you don't really mean them~ or a corporation trying to override your stated boundaries. The lack of respect for the individual is a red flag that this is something which will bring you grief.

So I dug in my heels and said I'm not going in to work until that clause is changed or removed. Which may mean (this is what happened last time) that they withdraw the offer. Which means I'm not at work today.

Will take a look at your site, IO, it looks really interesting.

You know when all the rational bits of your mind are saying "There is not valid reason not to do this thing" but all of the emotional and intuitive and gut-reaction parts of your mind are just saying "no, no, no, no, no" and you can't quite reconcile them? That's where I am with accepting this job (and I don't have anyone to talk it over with who gets that feeling at all). :-/

...and it's all off. They "withdrew their offer" rather than negotiate a not-45-hours-a-week schedule. Thanks, the whole "opt out of the EU working directive" thing, UK.

Imagine if I were actually trying to raise a family or something, not just protect my health through avoiding overwork.

bummer
on the other hand, i am impressed that you held firm to your requirements!

There's not much to "holding firm to my requirements". There's the understanding that if I tried to work 9 hour days with a 2-hour commute for three months, I'd likely end up in hospital. That is not a choice.

I've gotten little sleep this week, and my waking hours that have not been filled with baby have been filled with work, and I now have pink eye and god knows what else because yes, I live with an adorable little disease vector but also I'm so stressed from work I can't even think straight so in short, Branwell, you are my hero and I'm so glad that you made the right decision for yourself.

that's what i meant -- i've accepted jobs/more responsibility than i could handle at work and it has had a marked deleterious effect on my mental and physical health and it took me multiple years to recover -- totally feel u on that! i was proud and impressed that you said "never again".

<3 to you both!

I decided my Halloween costume is going to be Boo Berry; more specifically, cutting the Boo Berry mask off the back of the cereal box and wearing that with some pajamas.

I am realllly stoked for the half-assedness.

Oh except at work, me and the other teachers on my team are talking about going as the Village People, which was not my idea, believe it or not. I said dibs on construction worker or leather daddy.

Wear the boxes and be a cereal killer.

Be Valerie Perrine in Can't Stop the Music!

I bought purple lip tar last week, so I'm wearing that for Halloween.

im dark link

Aw, have fun in yr Halloween costumes, whether half-assed or... whole-assed? (Which member of the Village People wore the chaps, and how assed is that?)

I've just had such potentially good news that I don't even want to speak about it for fear of it not happening, but keep yr fingers crossed for me.

x'ed fings

lol @ whole assed

i was talking with my mom and she was in a particularly divulgey mood and we were talking about my difficulties wrt relating to ppl in this new way via music and she paused for a second and said, "i know i don't have to tell you this, but don't underestimate an old boys' network."

seemed worth sharing here because i don't know where else to put it. i think she is personifying the patriarchy but i'm not sure she didn't mean an actual (informal) network?

Like, in what way? Like, in terms of "dudes all stick together and do one another favours" (totally true) or that they have a network of contacts and gigs and the whole doing-shows-together as network thing?

I'm guessing a). My mom is a pretty good observer of behavior and she's been in many old boys situations over the years.

does she mean ppl are trying to exclude you to preserve an old boys network??

I have noooooo idea. She just said that and I was like huh that had never occurred to me but ??! So I asked y'all!

Sometimes it's not even that they are deliberately *trying* to exclude you, but they just don't see you as "part of the scene"? Like, if they were asked for a list of "people I could conceivably play with" they will list all their mates and your name will just not even come up. They just do not see you as one of the gang in that way?

Like, invite you to go and see one of their gigs, sure. Invite you to a jam session or add your band to the bill when the promoter asks who they'd like to play with... your name does not even cross their mind.

That was my experience of music scenes and networks.

oh totally, the "respected ppl in the scene" list is so often gonna be all dudes

i just wasnt sure if thats what the mom was trying to express!

i am not sure either, but i think this is super otm -- partially because i am not part of their gang but also because it's gonna take a lot more to even register as someone worth talking to
no question mark at the end of "in that way" either -- definitely a .
They just do not see you as one of the gang in that way?

Like, invite you to go and see one of their gigs, sure. Invite you to a jam session or add your band to the bill when the promoter asks who they'd like to play with... your name does not even cross their mind.

that's upside down but you get the drift

Sometimes it's not even that they are deliberately *trying* to exclude you, but they just don't see you as "part of the scene"? Like, if they were asked for a list of "people I could conceivably play with" they will list all their mates and your name will just not even come up.

Exactly, I've seen that play out a lot ... but to be fair, I feel like everybody does this to a certain extent, regardless of gender

yeah that's just the way of the arts afaict

though from everything my Chicago ex-pat pals tell me, Chicago's music scene is very boys club

There's a difference between "only the names of mates ever come up" (which is fair enough, everyone does) and "only the names of mates that are male ever come up" which is the difference between ordinary acts of omission, and an Old Boys' Club.

I could write you a novel about gender politics in music scenes... oh wait, I already have. ;-)

On another note:

Killjoy exhaustion. It's not so much that you're tired of pointing things out. It's that you're tired of the apparent need to point out things that should be really obvious.

You know when a topic hits you a little too close to home?

That.

chicago's scene is the most sexist/noxious ive ever encountered as an outsider

There are lots of little petri fishes

Omg whoops
I'm on zing
That was dishes and I wasn't done with sentence but I give up for now

Goddammit!!