no boys allowed in the room!!!!

The Daily Mail calls your incident "political correctness gone mad."

Oh ffffuuuuuuu.... sarahell, our lot can be the worst. And the idea of daria-g as a casual yeller is laughable.

I was really impressed that he believed that my assertively asking him to give me his insurance information before I gave him mine was an indicator of my sexual preferences.

Honestly I think car accidents bring out the worst behavior in most people, me included.

Unfortunately I'm picturing him as the husband of a lovely friend of mine, because he would behave exactly like this. How she ended up with him is a very long and frustrating story.

I wish I knew a good riposte, Mandy. Sometimes a student will accuse me of "yelling" under similar circumstances, and I joke that "you guys know I'm just naturally loud," but the power dynamic in our two situations is different.

Mand33, sorry.

Also sometimes I will deliberately lower my voice to about 80% of normal, and maybe 20% deeper than normal, very serious and flat affect, and a poker face, and fix my body language to be as neutral/pro-styles as possible, and make a lot of sustained eye contact, and improve my diction a little. Which is aggressive, but certainly not "yelling."

xp - Mandee - my first instinct would be to smile, make a "c'mere" motion with my hand and then whisper while smiling, "stop being such a fucking baby."

Anyway I have learned that saying, "I'm NOT yelling!!" doesn't work.

but that might not be appropriate for your workplace :/

I'd probably put them on the spot and ask what makes you think I'm yelling? In a rly calm voice. When ppl accuse me of being histrionic 1) they clearly have never seen me get genuinely upset and 2) it makes me feel xtra chill bc I know they feel threatened by me and are trying to intimidate and it's not working. Haha.

tell him to stop being so emotional

Oh god, yeah. In man-speak "she was YELLING AT ME" means basically "she contradicted in any way." Like the moment one of these men encounters any kind of resistance from a woman, they are instantly 3 years old and back in the nursery and MUMMY IS BEING UNFAIR!!!11

I mean, IDGAF, I am perfectly prepared to yell if that is what gets the job done. I realised long ago that "nice lady" was never going to be a trope accessible to me, so why fucking bother trying to confine myself to the ~accepted emotional range~ (or lack thereof)? If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling." Sometimes it works, and the dude simmers the fuck down because it is *so* unexpected. Actual female anger (not ~hysteria~ but anger as controlled aggressive display) is so unacceptable. But, it does mean that that dude will be afraid of me for the rest of time. But then again, so many people are afraid of me anyway, what's one more. *shrugs*

None of this is helpful, I realise. And I realise it's probably counter-productive. I am ~setting the team back~ by playing the Angry Woman. But, y'know, you're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't. Welcome to being a woman.

I don't know, it's like the power of expectations. And subverting an expectation can be a form of power, I guess?

I have this real problem with "Other People's Narratives". It's really, really hard, when people constantly treat you as if you were X (e.g. 'angry', 'crazy', whatever), they are just going to fit your behaviour into their paradigm, no matter what your behaviour is. It's hard not to get caught up in other people's narratives, and I have a very strong streak of "treat me like a baby, I will act like one." I am aware of the emotional role that has been cast for me, and the pressure to conform to that role is... immense.

But the power to shrug and say "that's your narrative, not mine" and go mine own way? That's hard. If someone is trying really hard to cast you as the crazy, emotional ~angry~ lady, to just respond with a long, even, no-bullshit stare, and be all "I'm not playing this game, that's in your head, not mine." (But equally, when someone is trying to intimidate you into never contradicting them by trying to cast you into ~nice~, demure, mummy-lady... y'know, fuck that, too. Realising that men are soooo afraid of female anger makes the threat of female anger a very potent tool. In the office, being seen as "the kind of woman who *could* go off" is more effective than ever actually going off. Oh, but of course, doing that, is being ~manipulative~, rather than, y'know, an actual effective defence. It makes me so angry, the way we are *constantly* expected to manoeuvre and dodge and generally compensate for men and their weird attitudes about women, but god forbid, you ever develop any coping strategies, then that's "manipulative")

Blargh.

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

last night, and it was so great, and I learned so much (haha, I am probably not the kind of person you should tell how to identify Hemlock) and I was feeling so great. And then five minutes on ILX and I'm feeling icky and ugh. I'm gonna go and look at Vetches and Vetchlings for a bit.

If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling."

I am glad I am not the only one who does this! Thank you!

(I just had this momentary fantasy of the next time some bloke accuses me of "yelling" when I'm speaking normally but assertively, to change my voice deliberately to the "cooing at babies ickle-diddums" girly voice and say something like "is this more the ~tone of voice~ that you can understand?" but that would probably get me in more trouble than just outright yelling.) :-/

or "take your unresolved mommy issues to your therapist. don't take them out on me"

Haha, totally, yeah!

(But, as more sensible brain takes over)...

Delightful fantasy, but probably not. Because 1) Having been on the receiving end of crazy-shaming so many times, I am really loathe to use "therapy" or "unresolved issues" as a zing or a stick to beat someone with, no matter how appropriate. And 2) I don't actually think that the vast majority of this shit *is* unresolved mummy issues, I think it's just the constant, pervasive societal (and individual) level sexism that teaches men that women are only ever present to smooth and lubricate the ~feels~ of men, and should never display emotions or motivation or requirements of their own. And though I am sure that there are many men with mummy issues, that totally play into and reinforce this whole mess, it's deeper than mummy.

Aaargh everyone OTM.

OTM about "why are you getting so upset/irrational?" when stating yr opinion exactly as rationally (or more so) and forcefully (or less so) as they are.

OTM about being typecast and abt realising that I am not pretty or non-schlubby enough to be received as Nice Lady Is Being Nice so why bother? oh, because any minor infraction of niceness will be totally put down as Hey Look At The Crazy Shrieking Ugly Fat Woman Who Is So Stupid And Loud And Totally Flipping Out For No Reason.

And OTM about the poisonousness of the whole women = irrational, men = logical unemotional fact-diviners thing.

Was reading some article about the importance of teaching young children and in particular boys (since the girls get told parts 1 and 3 anyway) "this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good. And, yeah probably that is for their own good! But maybe also just as a tiny unsettling of the idea "the thoughts in my head are the logical result of Universal Truths as processed by a series of mathematical functions, and the thoughts in YOUR* head are spontaneous bubbles of emotion, and if they disagree I get to tell you you're being shrieky and hysterical"

(* where YOU are usually a woman but sometimes another man whose masculinity is obviously in question as a result of this suspected feeling-having)

Haha but '

"this is an emotion, it is OK to have emotions, and it is also OK to say 'I have an emotion but I could calm down for five minutes before acting on it'" for their own good.

(And there's a part of me that wants to stamp my feet and shout "if I can fucking learn to do it, at the age of 40, why can't ~AAAAALLLLLL MEN~?" This is not a healthy emotion.)

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

(xp) OK, yes, to be honest I am not super-good at reacting well to emotions myself (I do "fly off handle", "burst into tears" and "remain silent so as not to burst into tears but seethe about for weeks even though I probably totally misunderstood anyway"), but I've never been left in any doubt that my emotions were emotions, and were unseemly and illogical!

I would like to learn more about overriding that default emotional burst-reaction though. When I was waiting for a depresso-therapy appt once, the only reading matter in the waiting room was an anger management booklet, and I found it p. interesting.

I do have a temper that gets away from me in ways I find super-embarrassing - I can shamefully recall almost toddler-esque tantrums from the past couple of years over the most minor of irritations or perceived slights, plus a whole bunch of nasty "why did I even have to get that dig in when I knew it wasn't worth it" moments - but I suppose it's never been in the top 3 things I've wanted "fixed" by therapy, so I've never really got onto managing it.

I have a v good male friend where the only time I've come close to pure hated of him is when he did this. 'i'm not getting angry? Wtf?' 'you are! You are getting angry!' Until upshot I got really angry.

It is one of my pet hates and I need to learn a more effective response.

Ugh yes. See also "Don't be so defensive!"

"I was just kidding, can't you take a joke?"

Being accused of humorlessness is my personal curse. Don't get so upset!

It's almost as if they're trying to create a situation where they get to tell you what to do or how to feel.

Wait wait sorry to interrupt, but can I back up?

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

THIS. SOUNDS. AMAZING. I want to *be* that guy someday. You guys don't live in Tucson, so I can share my favorite fact that the golden barrel cactus always grows south! It is nature's compass, and it does not give a fuck about your standard map orientation.

OMG, Crabbits, he was sooooo great. So knowledgeable (but a little bit batty, in all the right ways) and telling us which plants you could eat, and which tasted nice and which were "well, you *could* eat it, but I wouldn't advise it, on account of the taste..." And relating flowers' smells to animals such as goat or mouse (which most of us did not know what they smelled like). I picked up a guide so I can see when he is doing other wildflower walks on commons I know.

That is amazing about the golden barrel cactus. I love how plants know more about directions than we do, e.g. moss always on the North side of trees and the like. And how do they have that awareness? Is it magnetic, or is it on account of the angle of the sun?

I really wish we could have a ROLLING BOTANY THREAD where we could share facts like, golden barrel cactus always grows South. Or Brambles reproduce without pollen, as clones. So every different genotype of Bramble is actually a distinct species! That would be the best thread ever, to me, right now. (Except every single thread I either start or participate in lately except this one seems to get invaded by specific dudes following me from thread to thread howling about misandry, so I expect even a thread about botany would get derailed by some guy who simply could not resist howling "NOT AAAALLLL STAMENS!!!!!" at me.) I am typing this kinda in the spirit of LOL but also kinda :-/

I would love to go on a botanical walk! I love walks/hikes with smart people who tell me about things. Jeff and I went on vacation September before last to a "science ranch" and that is basically what it was. Hikes with a geologist and biologist, lectures, star gazing with an astronomer at night. It was maybe the best vacation ever. Well, going to London was probably the best. But then the science vacation.

SCIENCE RANCH!!!! OMG, this does sound like the best holiday ever. Geology, botany, astronomy, all in one cool and interesting location...? Like, science camp for grown ups. I love it!

(I also found out that the South London Botanical Institute are going on a field trip to Yorkshire to lookit a MOOR, I can just imagine a bunch of botany geeks going up on the moor and studying lichens and mosses and furze bushes and this sounds like the best time ever.)

It was in the mountains in Colorado and it was absolutely gorgeous. Sigh. I'm feeling wistful about such a vacation now.

A field trip to look at a moor is super appealing!

M oors are so romantic to me, as a person who read The Secret Garden way too many times growing up.

Ditto. I never read The Secret Garden but moors definitely feature prominently in my favorite books. I would like to visit a moor, a heath, and a craggy, windswept cliff, please.

ohhhh yeah, bring the heaths

Mountains in Colorado? This science ranch gets better and better! I bet that was so beautiful. (I have never been to Colorado, but just flying over it in an aeroplane, the landscape looked so astonishing!)

Moors are one of those things that are just... aaah, I could get all Emily Dickenson about them, except I have actually seen them. I know Cornish moors very well, they're kind of amazing places that are like deserts - they seem barren and lifeless unless you know them really well, and then everything seems so alive and throbbing with vitality. (There's a Daphne Du Maurier quote about Cornish moors I might dig out). Where moors run down to craggy, windswept cliffs, that is the actual best. (Which is Cornwall and Yorkshire, basically.)

I'm literally sitting here with my chin resting in my hand and sighing at the thought.

Found that Du Maurier quote:

It was a silent, desolate country, though, vast and untouched by human hand; on the high tors the slabs of stone leant against one another in strange shapes and forms; massive sentinels who had stood there since the hands of God first fashioned them.

Some where shaped like giant furniture, with monstrous chairs and twisted tables, and sometimes the smaller crumbling stones lay on the summit of the hill like a giant himself, his huge, recumbent form darkening the heather and the course tufted grass. There were long stones that stood on end, balancing themselves in a queer miraculous way, as though they leant against the wind; and there were flat altar-stones whose smooth and polished faces stared up towards the sky, awaiting a sacrifice that never came.
…
Strange winds blew from nowhere; they crept along the surface of the grass, and the grass shivered; they breathed upon the little pools of rain in the hollowed stones, and the pools rippled. Sometimes the wind shouted and cried, and the cry echoed in the crevices and moaned, and was lost again. There was a silence on the tors that belonged to another age; an age that is past and vanished as though it had never been, an age when man did not exist, but pagan footsteps trod upon the hills. And there was a stillness in the air, and stranger, older peace, that was not the peace of God.

Isn't that just the best? I wish I were there right now.

That is lovely.

Carl, I just wanted to say: I wish there were a "like" button beside so many of your posts lately.

i'm generally in a pretty good mood too. i'm going hiking in the woods in 2 days w mr and i just finished sewing a cape i started to make like 2 years ago? 18 months? sunday is my 1 year anniversary of having my very own drum set and learning to use it. feeling pretty good about myself in general, tbh. pardon the braggin but honestly i have no one else to tell but this thread. to write to a friend and tell her how great i'm feeling is across the board inappropriate, but somehow telling this thread is ok. i dunno. it probably isn't ok but i'm gonna do it anyway.

omg I saw a woman this morning wearing a cape, or maybe more like a capelet? And she looked AMAZING. I am very excited for how amazing you are going to look in your cape.

This is a good thread for bragging!

La Lech's cape is amazing. Definitely worth bragging about.

Also I love that Du Maurier quote - combined w/ the "spooky Brit TV" bump re: Children of the Stones really has me desiring some countryside desolation.

Isn't that from the adaptation with Jessica Brown Findlay that was just on BBC1, where everyone bitched about the mumbling?

Brag away, babe. Capes are great! Playing drums is fantastic. Gotta have a place for shouting "you go girl!" and slapping one another high fives as well as punching dudes in the dick and upsetting the patriarchs of ILX with our shrewish misandrist ways. ;-)

Oh, I need to lookit the "spooky Brit TV" thread because I really really want to see Children Of The Stones again; have not seen it since I was a wee tot and it scared the shit out of me, then, so I'd love to see what it's like now.

I copied the quote out of the book. I have no idea about the adaptation, except everyone everywhere except Cornwall complained about the mumbling, and everyone in Cornwall complained "you call that a *Cornish* accent? That's Bristol! Up country! not bleddy Cornish at all!"

holy shit LL I just remembered that you were in my dream last night!

Mr Veg and I were in a bar and there was a cool jazz improv group playing and I said to Mr Veg 'Hey see that drummer? That's LL. she's only been playing for a year, isn't she amazing?' and you were laying down righteous beats with those cool brush things and it was a p rad dream

:D

ha! that's awesome! i don't have any brushes but i am going to make a trip to the drum supply store (?) for my anniversary.

also i am really self-conscious about bragging.

This thread made me hungry for other biomes – think I am gonna hit Mt. Lemmon this weekend; they have seven different biomes there. Oh yeah!

It's good to practice bragging sometimes.

I know you are not fishing for cape-liments but I v much admire your cape, and that you made it!

Some shit I am excited about: 1. my boyfriend's family really likes me and is nice to me, which is very weird after my former marriage, where his family was mean to me and blamed me for everything; 2. consequently they got me a composter, which I very much wanted; 3. I shredded up a whole bunch of unneeded work-related papers (felt good) to turn into a carbon source; 4. it means I am feeling cheery about having a big tupperware full of scraps in my fridge.

DECAY!!!