no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Families are so weird in all their dynamics! But I'm still sorry to hear about your Gran.

my mother is really weird about her mother, too. They don't seem to love each other at all. I am pretty sure my grandmother had some sort of attachment disorder from being adopted (she was in and out of orphanages until she was 4), and my mother sort of didn't really know how to be... warm and maternal as a result. I should just save this sort of stuff for therapy.

I'm learning all kinds of amazing shit about my relaysh with mine and how that's impacted me and, man, is it heavy.

My mother's mom was dragged off to an institution as the kids looked on, because she had a psychotic post-partum break after my youngest uncle was born, so in hindsight my mother realises just how many aspects of parenting she had to sort of make up as she went along, not having any 'mother' cues to fall back upon based on her own childhood (my grandfather did a pretty good job, considering all the BS he had to deal with just to raise four kids virtually solo as a man in the 1950s). It's probably the reason our arguments can be a kind of one-on-one warfare, because there's less 'I am the parent and you are the child' normal/static boundaries that most of my other friends have had to negotiate.

Well, my grandma died. Everyone's grieving or not grieving in their own way. I guess my youngest brother punched some holes in the wall. He really loved her.

My grandma juts kind of did whatever guys in her life told her, my mom says. She married a guy right out of high school and had kids right away. He wouldn't allow her to learn to drive. He was an alcoholic and abusive, and weird – he raised pigs in the backyard, and bees. My mom was the second oldest kid – her older sister is developmentally delayed. At 14 she got a job at a gas station and got paid under the table, less than minimum, so she could save up and buy a sewing machine to make her and her four siblings clothes. This was in the early 1970s. My mom won't talk about her family or childhood much – I've just pieced all this together, mostly from things my dad would yell at her when they were fighting!

Grandma would say things like, "The whole world went to Hell when they started letting women wear pants to work." She'd come and visit and say things to my mom like, "You need to do something about the boy Crabbits is dating," right in front of me, like I was invisible. I was afraid of her as a kid, had that kind of passive aggressive relationship with her as a teen, but I still tried to keep in touch as a grown up. I'd mail her photos and cards a couple times a year. She rarely wrote back. About seven years ago, she would write back, but she'd sign the card as "your aunt," and not "your grandma." Or she'd use her sister's name instead of her own. Her dog (she had a black dog named Spook – do you see why we weren't close?) and bird died a long time ago, but she still acted like they were there. She'd been dying a long time.

Oh, Crabbits, that sounds fraught and difficult, and I'm sorry it's so complicated. I don't think you want condolences, though I'd offer them if you did, but mostly just thinking of you. x

I just talked to my mom and she said, "I don't have time to be sad now, but in six months I'll have to delete her from my cell phone contacts, and I'll be sad then." :(

Oof that is poignant.

Echoing BB. Condolences if you want them, but also a recognition that death in the family, even when it's not the way it's "supposed" to go carries a lot of emotional weight. Take care of yourself.

Sorry to hear that Crabbits, fwiw.

Your grandmother sounds a bit like my great aunt. Sour old lady who bossed around my nan even though nan was the only one who gave a shit about her & she would have been homeless without nan's care. She always glared at me. Nan would have me draw pictures for her & she'd just stare at them for a moment & drop them at my feet. Mean old lady she was.

my mom's mom was very similar. i found out after she died that she got permanently mad at me in 1991 for bringing a friend to a family function and held that against me until she stopped talking to me altogether in 1996 because she thought it was unwise of my parents to allow me to go to colombia during my year abroad in college. she died a few years ago, i don't even remember when, and i cried (at work in front of my class) but mostly because she was so miserable and it was sad to me that a person could live an entire life being that miserable and resentful and not do anything about it. she was a talented and inventive home cook, that's what i got from her i guess. she taught me what asafetida was when i was 7 or 8. she made clothes for me too, at least until she decided that she didn't like me anymore.

i think i posted something when she died because my mom and aunt found all these bags of $20 bills in her closet. i could look it up but why bother. anyway, you're not alone in having a grandma like that. i have plenty of other examples, but why bother typing them out. they're all the same!

so i was riding my bike home and was stopped at a traffic light, and this guy about my age in a suit (THIS GUY) walking up the sidewalk near me was talking pretty loudly. i figured he was on a headset and heard something like "you have to watch out around here..." and slowly realized he was talking to me. i looked over and said, "sorry?" and he told me that the buses come up pretty fast and turn right here at the light and you should be careful.

i said, "i know what a red light does." he looked kind of annoyed. WTF? why does he look at me and think i need to be told basic things by a complete stranger? he walked away and i said "MEN EXPLAIN THINGS TO ME" and busted out laughing because what else can you do

lol

it was so ridiculous. i live here, i'm on my own bike with a helmet and reflective gear and a a headlight, i'm obviously not a tourist on a bikeshare who doesn't know where they're going

bahaha he sure helped ya out
My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

my friend was yelled at by a cyclist to "Lose some weight & move your fat ass" & then he followed her into a restaurant & told her to "keep those calories down"

so many levels of ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME wtf

tbh I am still confused why the story didn't end with her murdering his stupid ass right there but jeeeesus christ

WHAT?!? A stranger? I.... I think I really would deck him.

right?

Random: a (male) friend of Jesse and mine was walking down the street when another dude on a bike derisively told him, "Get a car!" and this remains one of our favorite miniature anecdotes.

loooooool

That's common here iirc?

Ooh wait HE was on a bike. Ha

Ugh, I just wrote out a response to this, but my browser crashed and ate it. I guess the world didn't need to hear my ~THOTS~ anyway.

Just something about WTF are these episodes even supposed to provoke. Like, obviously laughter is a better reaction for you than anger, but I think men find laughter much more threatening than (impotent female) laughter. There are so many times when I don't even want to get angry or laugh, but just stare at them blankly and evenly and just say "and what on earth do you think you're trying to accomplish?" (yet being afraid that would learn to more obnoxious reprisals than the obnoxious behaviour to start with.)

But then, just feeling really sick of feeling so brutalised. Feeling sick of feeling afraid of male reprisal so much of the time.

I mean, obviously it's good to come on this thread, and laugh along with everyone else and go "OMG THAT'S RIDICULOUS" because that feels very freeing.

My fave thing a guy has yelled at me on my bicycle is "YOU GET IT GIRL YOU GET IT" while snapping his fingers above his head
any other message not needed

― just like the one wing dove (Crabbits), Friday, June 6, 2014 1:26 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:D :D :D

Some days I really wish there were one of those cute ~catchphrases~ for that particularly nasty intersection of misogyny, with bigotry against the mentally ill.

(Double points if it's one of those "women be ~crazy~!" assertions coming from one of those guys deflecting attention from his own bullying, gaslighting and generally refusing to notice how his own actions make women around him feel uncomfortable or threatened.)

maybe we can coin one, cause that would be damned useful on practically a daily basis

there's this new lovely thing that guys are doing at work, where if a woman is being somewhat assertive (not even aggressive, per se... just... a normal work person?) the guys will go, "Hey, why are you YELLING, man..."

It's ONLY ever directed at a woman. A male friend of mine used to do it to me, too, asking, "Why are you yelling at me?" in a joking manner if I ever said anything above a whisper. I think it's supposed to cue some defensiveness, because that's nearly what always results. It's really ugly and rude, I think. What would be a good comeback?

lately at work we have been talking about men telling us to "relax" or "calm down"

we get the full-on "don't be so emotional" when we are not "being emotional"

oh that has definitely happened to me - after extended discussion over the phone with a guy as to why he needed to follow a different process going forward to avoid issues. i was deliberately using super diplomatic corporatespeak and never once raising my voice, though i did sound a bit irritated as it took a while for him to listen, because why would he listen to a younger woman tell him something.. it got back to me that he'd told his manager he got yelled at. also a woman once was complaining about the same thing because i didn't suddenly back down and apologize when she lashed out at me for no reason - somehow keeping an even tone becomes "yelling at her." also gotten the "don't get upset" when i stick to my point in a disagreement instead of saying the other person's right and shutting up.

i am a soft spoken type of person and have never yelled at anyone in the workplace, ever. i guess maybe i could really scare people if i actually did get angry? lately i have been cultivating this habit of appearing to have an incredibly great sense of humor about disagreements and calling out rude behavior, like it's really fun for me and not maddening in the least, because if i'm not smiling when i disagree with someone it must mean i'm upset/yelling/irrational/etc

What would be a good comeback?

Punch in the dick?

i got in a very very minor fender bender this weekend, (other party was a white male). First thing he did was call me the "c word" and I said that that's a misogynist term here, though maybe not where you come from (he had a British accent), and then he accused me of being racist. I laughed and said, that's not how racism works and he clearly isn't from around here. Later, presumably as a result of standing my ground, he referred to me as a man-hating lesbian.

The Daily Mail calls your incident "political correctness gone mad."

Oh ffffuuuuuuu.... sarahell, our lot can be the worst. And the idea of daria-g as a casual yeller is laughable.

I was really impressed that he believed that my assertively asking him to give me his insurance information before I gave him mine was an indicator of my sexual preferences.

Honestly I think car accidents bring out the worst behavior in most people, me included.

Unfortunately I'm picturing him as the husband of a lovely friend of mine, because he would behave exactly like this. How she ended up with him is a very long and frustrating story.

I wish I knew a good riposte, Mandy. Sometimes a student will accuse me of "yelling" under similar circumstances, and I joke that "you guys know I'm just naturally loud," but the power dynamic in our two situations is different.

Mand33, sorry.

Also sometimes I will deliberately lower my voice to about 80% of normal, and maybe 20% deeper than normal, very serious and flat affect, and a poker face, and fix my body language to be as neutral/pro-styles as possible, and make a lot of sustained eye contact, and improve my diction a little. Which is aggressive, but certainly not "yelling."

xp - Mandee - my first instinct would be to smile, make a "c'mere" motion with my hand and then whisper while smiling, "stop being such a fucking baby."

Anyway I have learned that saying, "I'm NOT yelling!!" doesn't work.

but that might not be appropriate for your workplace :/

I'd probably put them on the spot and ask what makes you think I'm yelling? In a rly calm voice. When ppl accuse me of being histrionic 1) they clearly have never seen me get genuinely upset and 2) it makes me feel xtra chill bc I know they feel threatened by me and are trying to intimidate and it's not working. Haha.

tell him to stop being so emotional

Oh god, yeah. In man-speak "she was YELLING AT ME" means basically "she contradicted in any way." Like the moment one of these men encounters any kind of resistance from a woman, they are instantly 3 years old and back in the nursery and MUMMY IS BEING UNFAIR!!!11

I mean, IDGAF, I am perfectly prepared to yell if that is what gets the job done. I realised long ago that "nice lady" was never going to be a trope accessible to me, so why fucking bother trying to confine myself to the ~accepted emotional range~ (or lack thereof)? If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling." Sometimes it works, and the dude simmers the fuck down because it is *so* unexpected. Actual female anger (not ~hysteria~ but anger as controlled aggressive display) is so unacceptable. But, it does mean that that dude will be afraid of me for the rest of time. But then again, so many people are afraid of me anyway, what's one more. *shrugs*

None of this is helpful, I realise. And I realise it's probably counter-productive. I am ~setting the team back~ by playing the Angry Woman. But, y'know, you're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't. Welcome to being a woman.

I don't know, it's like the power of expectations. And subverting an expectation can be a form of power, I guess?

I have this real problem with "Other People's Narratives". It's really, really hard, when people constantly treat you as if you were X (e.g. 'angry', 'crazy', whatever), they are just going to fit your behaviour into their paradigm, no matter what your behaviour is. It's hard not to get caught up in other people's narratives, and I have a very strong streak of "treat me like a baby, I will act like one." I am aware of the emotional role that has been cast for me, and the pressure to conform to that role is... immense.

But the power to shrug and say "that's your narrative, not mine" and go mine own way? That's hard. If someone is trying really hard to cast you as the crazy, emotional ~angry~ lady, to just respond with a long, even, no-bullshit stare, and be all "I'm not playing this game, that's in your head, not mine." (But equally, when someone is trying to intimidate you into never contradicting them by trying to cast you into ~nice~, demure, mummy-lady... y'know, fuck that, too. Realising that men are soooo afraid of female anger makes the threat of female anger a very potent tool. In the office, being seen as "the kind of woman who *could* go off" is more effective than ever actually going off. Oh, but of course, doing that, is being ~manipulative~, rather than, y'know, an actual effective defence. It makes me so angry, the way we are *constantly* expected to manoeuvre and dodge and generally compensate for men and their weird attitudes about women, but god forbid, you ever develop any coping strategies, then that's "manipulative")

Blargh.

Man, I was in such a GOOD MOOD this morning, because I went to a botanical walk given by this guy:

http://www.plant-lore.com/

last night, and it was so great, and I learned so much (haha, I am probably not the kind of person you should tell how to identify Hemlock) and I was feeling so great. And then five minutes on ILX and I'm feeling icky and ugh. I'm gonna go and look at Vetches and Vetchlings for a bit.

If I'm going to be accused of "yelling" if my voice is normal, my reaction is something along the lines of "you want yelling? I'll show you fucking yelling."

I am glad I am not the only one who does this! Thank you!

(I just had this momentary fantasy of the next time some bloke accuses me of "yelling" when I'm speaking normally but assertively, to change my voice deliberately to the "cooing at babies ickle-diddums" girly voice and say something like "is this more the ~tone of voice~ that you can understand?" but that would probably get me in more trouble than just outright yelling.) :-/

or "take your unresolved mommy issues to your therapist. don't take them out on me"