no boys allowed in the room!!!!

I don't even know how to deal with guys that say things like that. I mean, my response is just to start screaming about rape apologists, and obviously that gets absolutely nowhere. Maybe some other people will have some better ideas about how to actually get through to these idiots. I mean, I'm at the point where I just post Shakesville's Rape Culture 101 and leave the conversation if I have to say anything. Because I don't have the energy to counter those kinds of things. But this is a point where they need to be countered and called out for the bullshit that they are, but I don't know how.

Ugh. What was the outcome? Is he going to play?

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

Yeah, exactly! So I told him to contact my friend (the victim), and they apparently had a long conversation about "rape culture" and all of the issues, and while the co-op was deadlocked in terms of yes or no (there were men and women on both sides), the guy decided not to have the date rapist play. So I felt good about it, though less good about some of the things my fellow co-op members said, esp. the one about the victim being crazy. By the time I saw that response, the discussion had progressed and digressed so I didn't end up saying, "Maybe the fact she has mental health issues led to her dating this guy and being in the situation where the rape occurred, but claiming that it was her fault because she was crazy is like blaming the victim of a stray bullet from a ghetto drive-by for being poor."

I'm sorry, I can't even.

But I am glad that the dude is now not playing.

Not just for the victim's benefit, but for the idea that: these kinds of actions have real-life consequences, which will hopefully put the thought into other dudes' heads that this is not a thing to be doing. Even if the victim is "crazy". Sigh. I just... no.

I mean, when you get into the actual statistics, and the idea that women with mental health issues are actually statistically *more* likely to have been raped (possibly because NO ONE WILL BELIEVE THEM) then that whole "~bitches be crazy!!!1~" argument becomes more and more sickening.

Argh. But I am glad that a deadlock meant that the dude is not playing.

Yes, definitely.

glad there was a good outcome but yeah, that's some poisonous shit to have to wade through to get there

It was definitely an "easier" decision because no one really knew this guy. I had no idea who he was until my friend told me about the rape. It's harder when the guy is someone more "ingrained" in the scene, like there is one dude who has been around forever, and has put on tons of shows for people, who had assaulted and manipulating and cheated on and just been a total shithead to a previous girlfriend (who is also in the scene), but this dude pretty much gets a pass.

i am so glad you made that call! and sorry you had to listen to a bunch of bullshit. also this:

there is something glamorous about being viewed as a childless Satan-Hitler by intrusive acquaintances.

― sarahell, Monday, 14 April 2014 16:43 (4 days ago) Permalink

is awesome and made me lol a lot.

i love this thread! i just caught up on it and have been feeling a lot of things. i have no irl female friends these days--well, i'm working on making one, but it's early days--and i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life. not making excuses, just i am absolutely that friend and i can't even really account for myself.

i miss female friends something fierce. i feel like i've kind of earned my female friendless state karmically, but still.

also carl and LL, i have a friend in Chicago who has told at least one story about how st4rlee kline is a jerk. the friend in question is so kind i have always hated kline as a result.

the friend in question is also a female friend i have flaked on repeatedly...

sorry i feel like you guys have become my confessors

also, io, your remembrance of your friend who is now married and no longer in your life is lovely.

horse let's hang out. i'm not a non-flake though. i'm so tired.

yay!

(not to being tired, though)

I was going to post something longer and entirely preaching-to-choir about sarah's thing, but, everyone otm, I'm glad he's not playing, and thanks sarah for sticking up for your friend and also talking to her about what she wanted

i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life.

^^^ v much relating to this

I have basically no female friends now which again is probably just karma for shitty flakiness but I've been doing some early-days-of-female-friendship things w/a coworker and it's been fun and nice but I sense my flaky habits returning and her losing the will to chase. She's suggested the last few outings and I declined the last one just bcz I felt run down and like I needed a weekend of doing nothing I guess (not a great reason but "so tired" here also); I really need to suggest something to do to look like her effort is being reciprocated but I am so bad at thinking of things to do!

(also mostly what we've done is go to see films and really I know v. little about films whereas she keeps up with all the new and arty releases etc)

So contact her and say "let's see a movie, your choice" and everyone's happy?

yeah I guess it really could be that simple! hmm, thanks

there's someone at work who I used to be in the same social circles as (though never super close to) long ago, and when she first reappeared in my life she made a kind of cool "surprised to see you're still around, thought you hated everyone" remark which I didn't have the energy to rebut, so I kept my distance, but she was surprisingly warm and friendly and sharing memories after a few drinks at the xmas party

so I've been trying to say hi cheerily whenever I see her around at work (which is not very often, mainly largeish meetings but also some kind of smaller briefing session recently) but she's always with someone else and always seems to cut me off to talk to them. so that's been kind of bumming me out a bit on the missing old female friends tip

flaky friend chapter 9,472

dinner & drinks meetup planned for 5pm with 2 girlfriends. the flaky one sends a bailout text at 3pm
"i havent been feeling good all day"

ok if you woke up feeling shitty just cancel then. but she ALWAYS plays that game of "seeing how she feels" & pushing until the latest possible moment to cancel. this was early for her.

she lives alone, and is kind of a hypochondriac. like if she feels even slightly not-normal then she cant leave the house. we have mutual friends, a gay couple who i have compared notes with extensively...we are just kind of stuck in this shitty pattern with her where she constantly re-dictates the plans that you make, so no plans are ever plans until she actually shows up

i love her, she's awesome company when she shows up, which is why i persist with her. but sometimes it's like GRRR

and ppl getting sick is fine, everyone has that happen. but with her now it's actually more normal for her to bail due to a sick excuse than to ever show up

that is aggravating.

i am not that kind of flake fwiw. i'm bad at maintaining long-distance friendships. and bad at initiating plans. but i will never cancel on dinner and drinks because i would always rather be at dinner and drinks with friends than doing pretty much anything else.

i think i'm bad at initiating plans because i am worried to an absurd degree about suggesting something the other person doesn't want to do...as though they couldn't just say no. it is not a rational worry, to say the least.

i think i am bad at long-distance because i dread the phone. why do i dread it so much?

ime it's ok to just be honest with newish friends about your flakiness - like, just say 'hey i had lots of fun at {last thing we went to} but i should warn you that i can be kind of flaky, and am bad at planning things, so don't think it's bc i don't wanna hang'.

my closest friends have an understanding that we all might not speak for months and months at a time, but there's no feeling of abandonment.

xp i hate talking on the ph too, so so so much. the only person i like ph-talking with is one of my BFFs. i don't even like talking on the ph with my husband that much. thank god for skype and facetime.

i never talk on the phone. i like to text though.

we are just kind of stuck in this shitty pattern with her where she constantly re-dictates the plans that you make, so no plans are ever plans until she actually shows up

i love her, she's awesome company when she shows up, which is why i persist with her. but sometimes it's like GRRR

I have two friends that are exactly like this. One has fairly significant mental health issues requiring fairly powerful meds and lives about an hour away now, so I always assume she really wants to keep the plans, but her brain and body require her to change them.

I have the regularly broke friend, the friend that has to work at an ungodly hour on Sunday morning so can't really go out on Saturday night, the friend that always needs me to give her a ride, the friends who are catty about other friends, the friend that is a "lifecoach" who will cancel when she gets a last minute client because she is also regularly broke ... I feel lucky that I have enough close female friends so that I can make a good plan B when something comes up with another one of them.

that is a great solution imo

Sorry, I'm still kinda stuck on "glamourous satan-hitler" eating children for breakfast and coming up with this:

https://24.media.tumblr.com/9e130d7615563fe779529e038f2d8889/tumblr_n3x8ygipYK1rd1g7mo1_400.jpg

For serious, and not just indulging my ladyboner...

I guess this conversation has been good for me, because it's helping me to see it from both perspectives. And realising that I have been a flaker as much as I've been flaked on.

I mean, yeah, I can hold up the whole "bipolar disorder: it's a hell of a mindfuck" as a kind of ~excuse~ for mine own flakiness. (And it is an excuse, not a justification.) That it can be more complicated than "this person just doesn't want to spend time with me any more"; thinking of the places that I have been when I've had to flake out of social plans, and trying to be more accepting when I don't know what's going on in the other person's life.

I guess it's because I tend not to do slow-fades. When I Stop Being Friends with someone, there's either a definitive Falling Out, where we stop speaking, and that's it, the friendship is over. And looking back at these, it's often not even about The Thing which triggered the fight, but just about the fact that our lives were heading in really different directions, we had different priorities that just no longer aligned, sometimes in really catastrophic ways. (e.g. if my friend that I always used to go out for dinner with suddenly gets hugely into dieting and weight watchers and huge massive exercise campaigns and fat-shaming, right around the time that I discover Health At Every Size, you know, this is a very fundamental lifestyle incompatibility issue.) Dropping out of the music scene, and deciding "you know what, going to bars and clubs and staying up all night to watch shitty indie-rock bands really isn't my thing any more" also leads to lifestyle compatibility issues with people to whom that still holds a huge importance. I just haven't yet found another Thing which leads to friendships in the same way because I'm not into... vintage clothing swaps or craft fairs (*shudders*) or whatever else women my age seem to do around here.

I guess that's why it's easier to focus so much on the People That Moved Away, because there's just this artificial end point, rather than the feeling that the friendship just ran its course. I am weirdly good at long distance pen pal intense friendships with people I have never met, and oddly bad at maintaining a long distance email correspondence with people I used to see every week who just moved away. The former is just a different beast, it doesn't have the expectations to bear.

It's always that functional thing, though, with the issue of "who makes the plans" and "who does the inviting". And it's supposed to be a taking turns thing. But after I've invited a couple of times, and been turned down, I really start to feel "the ball is in your court, if you want to see me, you'd suggest something" and then they don't. I guess they don't want to see me after all. I don't blame them. I'm an extremely uninteresting person with very limited interests who is not very fond of speaking to people. I dunno, it's like a game of tennis, where how many times after serving a ball and them not returning it do you give up serving and go wander off and do something else. But also to remember that if someone has served towards me, and I don't return it, the onus is on me to go off and pick up the ball and lob it back to them instead of moaning that I have no friends.

I guess I need to get more interests. Or more gender appropriate interests. Or... I dunno. Stop typing now and go out.

I mean "have loads of other female friends for a back up plan" is a great back up plan when you have... loads of other female friends?

Where do you get them? Is there a shop where you can go and pick some up? No, I didn't think so.

I'm sorry.

I really should just learn to shut up. The reason I have no friends is because I'm a boring old woman who does nothing but whinge about how she has no friends. The end.

I really need to suggest something to do to look like her effort is being reciprocated but I am so bad at thinking of things to do!

"Hey, I really liked hanging out/that movie/doing needlepoint with you. I'm not a great event planner but if you wanted to hang out again, I'd totally be down."

??

http://www.mikesblender.com/japangrish%20friend%20shop.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WnErRg9Sy6w/URKhpFLpC9I/AAAAAAAAB24/DpI6uXXRt_0/s640/IMG_1081.JPG

http://ahandcraftedhome.blogspot.com/2013/02/oh-hello-friend-store-visit.html

I think I'm about to break out in hives. -blessings, io

Never mind. I won't trouble the thread with my boring loneliness again. I'm boring myself at this point.

I'm out.

Boring loneliness is the only pal I've got these days -- several days this week were an exception, and I saw a nice handful of people and that was fun. But last night there was a show I wanted to go to, and I was ok going alone bc it was gonna be rill good. Everything said 3 bands, starts at 9. I got there at 9 because literally every other venue I frequent has shows that start at +/- the advertised time, give or take 30 min.

Let me tell you about my evening: I drove way across town, i drank 1 beer and doodled on a napkin while failing at small talk on two separate occasions. 90 minutes passed, the place was filling up and there were lots of groups of friends. i was still sitting there drinking my water. I sneezed, the dj said bless u. i said thank you. A girl who had a long story to tell about her boyfriend's fake lack of ambition asked for my seat and i wound up sitting at the end of the bar 90 minutes after the time i had been led to believe was the starting of the show and thought fuck this. i haven't paid my $10 yet, time to cut my losses and get a good night's sleep instead of being surrounded by these people who can't even be bothered to start a show on time. i'm used to waiting, but i'm not used to everyone being so standoffish. i think that's lame.

anyway, it was a minor disappointment but mainly because i wanted to see this band and i have tried TWO TIMES and both times been hornswaggled (?) by shit like this. Last time it was virtually the same thing. Anyway, since I thought it was an amusing coincidence and it's something i would tell one of my friends, so i will tell this thread. i'm glad to still have y'all to talk to!

also io this is the band (the first one) i was trying to see that time i met you out at chi kev's bar -- remember that? how there were too many people in line and all that? uuuuuugh.

Haha, LL, yes, this is pretty much why I don't go to shows any more (unless they are the sit-down kind with an assigned seat where they start precisely at the time advertised). It sounds so tedious that you end up irritated before the band you want to see even go on.

I spent the afternoon in "my" apple orchard, drawing and reading. Apple blossom smells amazing.

I mean, I'm accustomed to a wide variety of shows/settings/ degree of lateness but this seemed to bother exactly no one else and I found myself wondering about professionalism. I don't really hold dear to the notion that late/sloppy = romantic fun, esp since its not fun for the musicians who may or may not be responsible for the delay. I just think it's lame. Lotsa far out there shows start on time. So what happened? Why did no one seem to notice?

Anyway, I'm not going out of my way to see a show at this place again.

I don't really hold dear to the notion that late/sloppy = romantic fun

I have spent over a decade combating this with varying degrees of success ... I've said before that before I was a member of this co-op show space, I ran a non-profit arts space that did a lot of music shows, and before that I started and ran another non-profit arts space that did a lot of shows -- anyway, after almost 15 years of this, I know and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry and ... well, that is how I met most of my friends

yeah -- i sympathize! i wished i was one of the people having fun and talking with friends and not caring that the show was late. only i was just me with my water. i'm trying to meet new people by being there and going out and whatnot, it's just man. it's difficult. i don't know how to begin.

oh i have definitely been in your position! and maybe even worse, i have been the person working the door, or sound, or the person responsible for paying out the bands at the end of the night and closing up, so what I had planned on being a night where I get to leave at midnight, ends up being a night where i am stuck there until 2:30/3am

like when I go to shows where I'm not working for the venue, i always reassure myself with the joyous thought that if I'm not having a good time, I can leave whenever I want.

that's part of why i was kinda grousy about it -- the musicians were probably under the impression that they would play at a certain time, and that's work and to have your working conditions be so variable/unpredictable/at the whim of people who may or may not even care about what you're doing is just -- it's wrong! that's why waiting for the place to fill up before the first band goes on seems like it adversely affects the headliner/later bands as well as the people who support them (both patrons and venue support). it's unprofessional. and like i said, i understand that people are in love with the mystique of knowing when the party "really" starts but i dunno. i'm never really on the side of the people who are there primarily for the party, y'know? i wish someone would give me a job -- at least i would have something to do!

i am trying to meet people, and that's got to be worth something, i'm not letting this one incident squash my mojo or anything. i do regret my failure to extend one of the small talk attempts. it's just hard always being the person who talks first because if i didn't, no one would talk to me at all. this is a proven fact! oh well. it's a new day. who cares.

i haven't met anyone outside of work since i can't remember. life is over.

Argh, see I always thought that was the job of the promoter (or the club manager or whoever) - to get the bands on in a timely and orderly fashion. But I guess that might actually be a London thing, because most venues have such an early license, if everything has to be over for last call at 11pm, then it's much more urgent to chuck the first band on at 8.30, no ifs ands or buts.

I do remember back in NYC, thinking we were going on at 9pm, and not going on until 10.30, which sucked if you had to get up and go to work in the morning. I mean, no one likes going on to an empty room, but good god, audiences don't learn to come on time, if the bands always go on late!

I dunno; not being facetious, honestly, I'm just wondering if this is a cultural difference? Like, is it really possible to go to shows and meet and befriend strangers? Maybe that's a midwestern thing. Good on you for making overtures, though, LL. I'm just trying to think if I've met people at shows - and I have totally have, but usually, because this is London, they were people who were already known to someone I sort of knew, and was introduced. Having an actual job to do at a club (especially if it's The Door) has, for me, been a better way of actually meeting people.

I really wish I still did that. But on the other hand, being in bars and clubs when you're not drinking is a special kind of torture. I mean, I used to get paid for doing the door at Sonic Cathedral with... a bottle of wine. Which really helps on the talking to strangers front.

I guess it's kind of weird or else I'd assume it would've been more successful. I go bc I want to see the band that's playing, firstly and mainly. If I'm waiting, I'm open to the idea that I'd have a pleasant conversation with someone about something. It has happened. But at this place, the vibe was not amenable and the 3rdmost band hasn't even started. People weren't even in the venue itself, but crammed in the bar outside. This was the situation 90 min after the announced start time. I had a lot of time to pass.

OK, yeah, talking to people in a bar is way easier, especially if you're kind of crammed in. It's almost rude *not* to.

bars and clubs here (at least in the SF Bay Area) tend to advertise a time an hour before the bands actually start so that people will show up early and buy drinks, because the bands are really a vehicle for selling drinks, after all. they tend to adhere more to schedules because of last call, and wanting the bands to be done with enough time before last call so that the people seeing the bands can buy more drinks.

the warehouse and house shows are the "worst" when it comes to timeliness because they are operating illegally in the first place, or at least their alcohol sales operation isn't legal. When I took over the arts non-profit in SF, shows were operating on warehouse show time, where they'd be advertised as starting at 8:30 but nothing would happen until 10, and I did as much as possible to enforce a "show has to start no more than 45 minutes after advertised start time" policy. If the bands don't want to play until 10:30, then say the show starts at 10, rather than 9 or 8:30 ... too many people are insecure and don't want to appear "uncool" to their fellow "scenesters."

That seems really sensible to me!