no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Like marrying Leonard Cohen.

Somewhere on a 16-year old mixtape I have a live version of "There's a Light Beyond These Woods, Mary Margaret" by NG with a long monologue in front involving Mary Margaret and a truck stop jukebox, and I can't even think about it without crying.

my sad violin of lost friendship is so loud that the hum has turned into a drone that may occasionally shift but never stops
today really got to me because of all i have been through with this person, and it left me feeling really burnt. i channeled that energy positively, which is good, but nothing has changed. i just don't feel bad about it atm.

maybe it's a little consolation to think to keep in mind that there'a a good chance it's not you, it's them - LL, maybe your friend is suffering some postpartem depression, minor or major, and is really struggling to stay on top of things? and maybe a similar thing in your case, VG, esp if your friend is no longer in contact with mutual friends, and had gone through a divorce?

yeah otm

that's kinda why I am not giving up. i sense that kernel is in there somewhere. spidey sense sorta

I wish for the women I love to always get their needs met and feel supported. It sucks that this is not within our control and yet affects us so profoundly. Other people, amirite?

Xp - Maybe! But previously she'd have talked with me about it, hence my demotion. :(

hard enough being us without projecting ourselves onto other people, and yet

Btw I am growing an old pot of chives that still struggle along (provenance unknown), some basil shoots, some rocket that is ROCKETING upwards and needs to be thinned out, two boxwood shrubs that appear to be about to flower? Plus outside I have some flower seeds and bulbs and garden plants that I hope will do better this year than last.

Also when I eat a scallion, I soak the white end in water for a couple of days and then plant it, so now when I want scallions I just snip them off with scissors and they grow back incredibly fast.

idk I'm not sure if this makes any sense but I expect more of a spouse than I do of friends, and this impacts my expectations of friends because I have a spouse? is this fucked up? I dunno it is late and I have take a ton of benadryl because apparently I am allergic to Alabama SURPRISE

I wanted to clarify that my melodramatic drone post was collateral noise, not caused by this incident.

Time zones suck. It's always a little bit of a lost and lonely feeling when this thread sits empty and forlorn all day, then when I'm asleep it magically springs back to life, and dies away by the time I'm awake.

I think it's kind of strange to me, the idea of the "lifelong best friend" because I moved so much as a child, went to so many different schools, continued to move so much even as an adult. There are 2 maybe 3 friends I am even still in contact with, from before the age of 25? (And they are not necessarily the people, that had you asked me, at that age, who will I still be friends with in 20 years.) But those contacts are very sporadic, and dependent on me going to another country. Being the one who moves is hard, but I'm sure that being the one who stays behind is hard, too, I'm sure. Because they also change, move in a different direction.

I dunno; this is one of the things that I have been working on with my shrink for the past 2 years. Confronting the expectation that friends should be "permanent" with the reality that every aspect of life is transitory. There are friends you have only while you are in a specific phase of your life, and you both move onto other phases. You have friends that you focused around an activity, like a job or a club or a hobby, and when that is over, the friendship ends. (This has been the hard one for me - when so many of my friendships have been based around bands, accepting the fact that the band breakup often means that the friendship is over, and all the work you put into it is now for nothing, that's hard.)

There may be some truth to the idea that a friend who is too busy with a baby to see you might have post-partum depression, or that a friend who had a divorce 3 years ago might be struggling. Or there may not be. I really would not be too quick to "medicalise" things which may just be life changes. It's nothing you've done wrong, it's nothing they've done wrong, it's just that the shapes of your lives have changed so that they don't quite fit any more.

I grew up in a family that was very far-flung, and people going off to and visiting back from colonies all over the world, and when people were in town for a week or two, you pulled out all the stops to make the visit happen while they were there. But there are many people for whom this is not the usual, that trying to fit in out of town visitors during a constrained amount of time is an imposition and an interruption, and you have moved on, and they have moved on. Someone coming back from out of town with the expectation that "you should have done something more with your life" is kinda... I would feel defensive and distracted being around that person. (Not to mention, if you make a mistake as a nurse on a night shift because you haven't had enough sleep, someone could die.) Sorry, that sounds harsher than I intended. People grow in different directions, have different priorities, and they are allowed to.

It's important, as you get older, to have friends who remember who you both were when you were young. But if the only connection is remembering who you were when you were young, and there is no connection of who you are, now, then that's a different kind of friendship. I'm going to stop typing now, and spend the rest of the morning feeling apologetic about this post.

I grew up in a family that was very far-flung, and people going off to and visiting back from colonies all over the world, and when people were in town for a week or two, you pulled out all the stops to make the visit happen while they were there. But there are many people for whom this is not the usual, that trying to fit in out of town visitors during a constrained amount of time is an imposition and an interruption, and you have moved on, and they have moved on.

This is so otm and I am experiencing it now! On my crappy phone otherwise could post a huge post about this whole thing

Well, I'm glad it resonates because I feel like I'm being a constant stream of negativity ITT, and I don't really like being a stream of constant negativity.

I kinda wanna be like "happy things! gardening! cute boys in suits! sunshine!" and not... like I'm being right now.

no BB that was an A+ post, v insightful thank you!!

BB I liked yr posts and man if you think you're being negative you should see the things I have been thinking but not posting itt. e.g. I have been... very bad at staying in touch with friends, so I've been having ~thoughts~ about the best female friend conversation, but they don't need posted. Also thoughts about my ovaries but yeah TMI and TMwhining so eh.

i.o. do you snip your planted scallions off and leave the white bit in the ground or do you need to pull, snip, soak, replant every time?

I tried to regrow some scallions once but I didn't know what I was doing and left them unattended in water for too long. Plants are a foreign language to me, I need everything spelt out and then I invent some ambiguity in the instructions that nobody else would ever even think of and worry about it. So apologies if the above q is in that category.

I'm experimenting with just leaving them in the dirt and cutting off what I need. Seems to be working okay so far. They don't grow back as big as supermarket ones but I assume those are grown under controlled hydroponic conditions etc and let grow for longer.

I just put the leftover stubs in a little water and on the kitchen bench - they just grow and grow!

I think it's totally ok to negative-vent on this thread , I'm certainly not complaining

Also: the one female friends I hang out with here is probably moving back to the UK soon :/

This is making me feel very lucky as I have 5-6 really awesome close female friends. I don't have hardly any male friends anymore!

Green shoots! The first of my greens has peeked its little heads up into the sun!

It never fails to amaze me how I can scatter a bunch of seeds into some dirt, and a few days later, there are shoots and then after a week or two, there is FOOD for free, coming out of the GROUND. This is just one of the best things in the world.

Also, my apple trees are in blossom, which is possibly one of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life. (You can't imagine what I'm going to be like when they start to sprout actual apples.)

I grew up next to an 80-y-o apple orchard and climbed in their gnarled and dying branches as a matter of course, I'm right there with ya.

lol BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE

would it be rude and/or gross to disrupt the idyllic gardening talk with the latest in the date rapist playing my co-op saga?

Nope.

Yeah, go ahead, I think we can handle both.

So, before I did or said anything about the situation, a mutual friend who is also dating the roommate of another co-op member, contacted the co-op member who was putting on the show (not her bf's roommate), and told him that the date rapist shouldn't be allowed to play and basically said what in orbit and BB said in this thread as reasons why.

I woke up one morning to a voicemail from my friend (the victim) about it -- that the guy putting on the show was a bit skeptical about the mutual friend's accusations and position on what should be done. So I called her, and I told her that I wanted to talk to her first before saying anything, and that I felt gross having that guy play. But I didn't want to broach the situation with the co-op until talking to her to see how she felt about it, and how much she felt comfortable having other people know about the situation, like, if she even wanted her name mentioned. So she said that she would understand if the co-op let him play, but that she would feel better if he wasn't allowed to play. My friend actually goes to shows there and has played there several times, so it isn't just a hypothetical thing.

So I contacted the guy putting on the show and told him that everything the mutual friend said was true, and that I agreed with her, but it should be something brought up to the whole co-op group for discussion, because I could tell that the guy felt uncomfortable making the decision on his own -- because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole.

Anyway, it led to a long discussion, where a lot of the unfortunate standard things got said: "Well, was he convicted? He doesn't show up in the sex offenders registry.", "She used to date a good friend of mine and is a total whackjob," "I have had friends get wrongfully accused of rape that got blackballed out of scenes, so I am uncomfortable siding with the victim." "None of us really know what happened, so I don't feel like judging this guy."

I don't even know how to deal with guys that say things like that. I mean, my response is just to start screaming about rape apologists, and obviously that gets absolutely nowhere. Maybe some other people will have some better ideas about how to actually get through to these idiots. I mean, I'm at the point where I just post Shakesville's Rape Culture 101 and leave the conversation if I have to say anything. Because I don't have the energy to counter those kinds of things. But this is a point where they need to be countered and called out for the bullshit that they are, but I don't know how.

Ugh. What was the outcome? Is he going to play?

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

Also: "because he's one of those guys that doesn't want to be an asshole." Not being an asshole to a date rapist means being an asshole to the person he date raped.

Yeah, exactly! So I told him to contact my friend (the victim), and they apparently had a long conversation about "rape culture" and all of the issues, and while the co-op was deadlocked in terms of yes or no (there were men and women on both sides), the guy decided not to have the date rapist play. So I felt good about it, though less good about some of the things my fellow co-op members said, esp. the one about the victim being crazy. By the time I saw that response, the discussion had progressed and digressed so I didn't end up saying, "Maybe the fact she has mental health issues led to her dating this guy and being in the situation where the rape occurred, but claiming that it was her fault because she was crazy is like blaming the victim of a stray bullet from a ghetto drive-by for being poor."

I'm sorry, I can't even.

But I am glad that the dude is now not playing.

Not just for the victim's benefit, but for the idea that: these kinds of actions have real-life consequences, which will hopefully put the thought into other dudes' heads that this is not a thing to be doing. Even if the victim is "crazy". Sigh. I just... no.

I mean, when you get into the actual statistics, and the idea that women with mental health issues are actually statistically *more* likely to have been raped (possibly because NO ONE WILL BELIEVE THEM) then that whole "~bitches be crazy!!!1~" argument becomes more and more sickening.

Argh. But I am glad that a deadlock meant that the dude is not playing.

Yes, definitely.

glad there was a good outcome but yeah, that's some poisonous shit to have to wade through to get there

It was definitely an "easier" decision because no one really knew this guy. I had no idea who he was until my friend told me about the rape. It's harder when the guy is someone more "ingrained" in the scene, like there is one dude who has been around forever, and has put on tons of shows for people, who had assaulted and manipulating and cheated on and just been a total shithead to a previous girlfriend (who is also in the scene), but this dude pretty much gets a pass.

i am so glad you made that call! and sorry you had to listen to a bunch of bullshit. also this:

there is something glamorous about being viewed as a childless Satan-Hitler by intrusive acquaintances.

― sarahell, Monday, 14 April 2014 16:43 (4 days ago) Permalink

is awesome and made me lol a lot.

i love this thread! i just caught up on it and have been feeling a lot of things. i have no irl female friends these days--well, i'm working on making one, but it's early days--and i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life. not making excuses, just i am absolutely that friend and i can't even really account for myself.

i miss female friends something fierce. i feel like i've kind of earned my female friendless state karmically, but still.

also carl and LL, i have a friend in Chicago who has told at least one story about how st4rlee kline is a jerk. the friend in question is so kind i have always hated kline as a result.

the friend in question is also a female friend i have flaked on repeatedly...

sorry i feel like you guys have become my confessors

also, io, your remembrance of your friend who is now married and no longer in your life is lovely.

horse let's hang out. i'm not a non-flake though. i'm so tired.

yay!

(not to being tired, though)

I was going to post something longer and entirely preaching-to-choir about sarah's thing, but, everyone otm, I'm glad he's not playing, and thanks sarah for sticking up for your friend and also talking to her about what she wanted

i am historically the flaky friend. i've been cringing at the pain i likely caused a few erstwhile friends along the way. those of you who are being frozen out, i'm sorry, and i recommend you take the same course Abbs is taking, but know that it is entirely possible that your disappeared friend still cares about you, she is just really bad at managing life.

^^^ v much relating to this

I have basically no female friends now which again is probably just karma for shitty flakiness but I've been doing some early-days-of-female-friendship things w/a coworker and it's been fun and nice but I sense my flaky habits returning and her losing the will to chase. She's suggested the last few outings and I declined the last one just bcz I felt run down and like I needed a weekend of doing nothing I guess (not a great reason but "so tired" here also); I really need to suggest something to do to look like her effort is being reciprocated but I am so bad at thinking of things to do!

(also mostly what we've done is go to see films and really I know v. little about films whereas she keeps up with all the new and arty releases etc)

So contact her and say "let's see a movie, your choice" and everyone's happy?

yeah I guess it really could be that simple! hmm, thanks

there's someone at work who I used to be in the same social circles as (though never super close to) long ago, and when she first reappeared in my life she made a kind of cool "surprised to see you're still around, thought you hated everyone" remark which I didn't have the energy to rebut, so I kept my distance, but she was surprisingly warm and friendly and sharing memories after a few drinks at the xmas party

so I've been trying to say hi cheerily whenever I see her around at work (which is not very often, mainly largeish meetings but also some kind of smaller briefing session recently) but she's always with someone else and always seems to cut me off to talk to them. so that's been kind of bumming me out a bit on the missing old female friends tip

flaky friend chapter 9,472

dinner & drinks meetup planned for 5pm with 2 girlfriends. the flaky one sends a bailout text at 3pm
"i havent been feeling good all day"

ok if you woke up feeling shitty just cancel then. but she ALWAYS plays that game of "seeing how she feels" & pushing until the latest possible moment to cancel. this was early for her.

she lives alone, and is kind of a hypochondriac. like if she feels even slightly not-normal then she cant leave the house. we have mutual friends, a gay couple who i have compared notes with extensively...we are just kind of stuck in this shitty pattern with her where she constantly re-dictates the plans that you make, so no plans are ever plans until she actually shows up

i love her, she's awesome company when she shows up, which is why i persist with her. but sometimes it's like GRRR

and ppl getting sick is fine, everyone has that happen. but with her now it's actually more normal for her to bail due to a sick excuse than to ever show up

that is aggravating.

i am not that kind of flake fwiw. i'm bad at maintaining long-distance friendships. and bad at initiating plans. but i will never cancel on dinner and drinks because i would always rather be at dinner and drinks with friends than doing pretty much anything else.

i think i'm bad at initiating plans because i am worried to an absurd degree about suggesting something the other person doesn't want to do...as though they couldn't just say no. it is not a rational worry, to say the least.

i think i am bad at long-distance because i dread the phone. why do i dread it so much?