no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Wasn't she blonde on that? It was NAGL.

i remember listening to a f&g dvd commentary where cardellini was all uncomfortable watching it because to believably inhabit lindsey the show creators had asked her to wear minimal/no makeup and she found it hard to look at herself, and i was like are you crazy you're the prettiest.

that's ridiculous, she is the prettiest girl

god yeah. she was gorgeous.

That's not an inoculation against wanting to hide behind makeup though! Makeup is complicated, IMO.

yes you are right! i realize my post kind of reads like some clueless dude saying "women are so much prettier without makeup," which wasn't quite what i meant. it just made me a little sad, when i was listening to that commentary.

it's a little bit different when there's, what, 15 years remove between the show itself & the commentary tho

esp when she's looking at herself as a young girl as an adult woman

it would be kind of a bummer to hear that from her, regardless of how u feel about makep.

i think the commentary was recorded not long after the show, tbf. the dvds came out shortly afterward iirc.

really? then nm :)

yeah obv makeup is not a tool intended to remedy ugliness, or w/e. i wear makeup and i don't think i'm ugly. feeling like you look ugly strictly because you're sans makeup is hard to wrap my mind around. hollywood people are notably weirder about this stuff than normal people tho

that's how it seemed to me, like an in-the-hollywood-bell-jar distorting her image of herself type thing. she was a young woman at the time.

I admire F&G but mostly find it impenetrable. Probably not surprisingly.

Bill Haverchuck is my favorite. Also not quite enough girls on the show to have a character I identified with personally (although the show was p accurate representation of my hs experience from a few perspectives)

I understand what everyone's saying about makeup, and I wear it/have no prob with it whatsoever. I just felt like it was weird to say that she was pretty and therefore should be confident about her face. Sad fact is I think everyone I know quietly hates something about her own face, pretty or not, and that makes me sad. Not excluding myself here.

Wait before you start thinking that I am an asshole -- I don't think that attractiveness and prettiness are the same thing.

Also in a really terrible/sad mood so pls take this awful conversation with a grain of salt.

LL, you are right, I think. And I hope the sadness passes quickly.

It's a constant fite for me to try to not care about being "pretty" btw. I am uninterested in prettiness in other people, I prefer beauty, character, individuality, what have you. But in myself I judge my femininity/"prettiness" all the time.

Sort of constantly amazed by married couples in which the men find the women "beautiful" even though they see them sick, hungover, sweaty, un-pretty all the time because omg lyfe, and I just can't...believe it? Even though it's right in front of me all the time obvs! Serious personal issue alert, clearly. AND ALSO somehow in my mind men are exempt from the reverse of this pressure.

Or, I should say, long term real life couples, not just marrieds, but since there are lots of ppl in this thread who are specif married it was easy short-hand.

xp i always chalk it up to the stereotypical thought that men are like dogs, and like the dog that loves you because you feed it, men find their ltr lady beautiful because she is the provider of sexytimes - at least that's how i felt in my last ltr

That seems...unflattering to both parties?

Or maybe ungenerous is a better word. Still, that's not an answer I can rest with.

xp - i did not say i thought it was a healthy perception!

like it's definitely indicative of "personal issues"

Heh.

still, i think "sexytimes" is a glib shorthand, really - like shooting-the-shit-at-a-bar-in-mixed-company shorthand - and it stands for positive feelings from physical intimacy.

I believe that guys find ladies they normally find sexy/beautiful the same when sick, pregnant, in pajamas, whatever - as long and they aren't weird and extremely extremely superficial (ie equating beauty with amount of makeup or w/e). If I'm really attracted to someone it isn't diminished by their looking wan or jaundiced it whatever due to sickness, or wearing stupid clothes, etc. Tbf: though I believe that, it is hard to think about myself, and my relationship and I get really self conscious STILL about Andy seeing me looking rough.

I had poison ivy all over my face this summer and literally looked identical to cotton from king of the hill. I thought, how long would Andy endure this?!

Sort of constantly amazed by married couples in which the men find the women "beautiful" even though they see them sick, hungover, sweaty, un-pretty all the time because omg lyfe, and I just can't...believe it?

Many years ago, when I was having major external-beauty issues, my mom tried to explain someting to me about how she and my father "thought about" one another. At the time, they were married for ~30 years (and are now married 40+ years). Mom said to me, "you cease thinking about someone you are so deeply intwined with as a physical being. When I think of your father, I think about a million other things before I think six-one, dark hair, brown eyes, etc.). It just doesn't cross my mind what his *physical* person is."

I have found this to be so true, even though spouse and I find each other physically attactive, that physical aspect is not what either of us identifies as *us*.

Not sure I have made sense there, but I totally get relationships transcending the physical being.

i don't think I've ever had one that did.

Not speaking for my boyfriends, but just for myself, I've never been that close to anyone that I stopped thinking of them as their physical self in a romantic relship. Friendships, easily, yes.

Yeah I mean that's what "love" is IMO? Quincie's mom super otm.

Weird.

Weirder would be the opposite!

Eh maybe I'm also thinking too much (without meaning to carry the baggage but you know how far that goes) of when exes who have let me know when they didn't find me attractive in some way, like it was my job to maintain.

xp I was kidding!

girl, ive been there. those ppl were actually evil tho

Omg yes. Evil.

had an ex BF who LOUDLY talked to a friend of mine in the other room about how he had to grow to find me attractive, in the style of "dont give up buddy, you can date anyone and eventually grow to find their appearance acceptable" *pats*

me in the other room - >:O

Someone told me to my face that I reminded him of a monkey.

Pardon the fuck out of me for being short and wiry, asshole!

Whaaaaa....?! xp

That wasn't even the worst, but it's the funniest.

Oh no fucking way is there an obligation to "maintain" other than maintaining the fundamentals of myself (aka the stuff one falls in love with); 20 pounds does not change the fundamentals of myself. I have tested this theory in real life, and it has held rue.

Also, I shit in my now-husband's pants ~2 weeks after we got engaged. SHIT IN HIS PANTS. After which there was an ambulance and a hospital stay wherein not only did I look like shit, he had to CHANGE MY EXPLOVE-DIARHHEA-FILLED BEDPANS. And kissed the lips from which I recently spewed much vomit. Not a pretty time, the norovirus weekend. So thank god one can transcend the physical, because otherwise he would be haunted by shit and vomit every time he looked at me!

if my story was inscrutable its cause i meant my bf was telling the friend how he, the BF, had been forced to develop an attraction to me - he wasnt telling the friend he had to develop one. lol. the friend was having trouble finding a GF at the time.

xp wow quincie. that's love

Once I tried to make light of body image stuff during sexytimes by telling my partner in a jokey kind of way that I was self-conscious about my stomach. He said 'yeah, I would think so'.

People are so terrible to each other sometimes! Quincie your story warms the bowels of my soul.

LJUB OMG

Jesus christ based on this thread you marry the one who DOESN'T talk shit about some aspect of your appearance because frankly all the rest do.

LJUB OMG

Xp No they don't but we fixate on and remember the bad ones! That's what's so shitty about it.