no boys allowed in the room!!!!

You guys, Jenny was otm about this w/r/t relationships, and I think about it all the time since she put it into words, it's pretty damn obvious I guess, but...we have to make a new way, you know? For ourselves as we age and change and get crone-ier in all ways. We can do better. We have each other, first of all, and this conversation and a thousand more like it, it feels like a richness right now and I just know we can make something out of it.

I wear a waist whittler every day myself (one from Hanes), and it does make a difference.

You guys, Jenny was otm about this w/r/t relationships, and I think about it all the time since she put it into words, it's pretty damn obvious I guess, but...we have to make a new way, you know? For ourselves as we age and change and get crone-ier in all ways. We can do better. We have each other, first of all, and this conversation and a thousand more like it, it feels like a richness right now and I just know we can make something out of it.

― It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:15 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

yes, this is what i want! hear, hear!

:-) :-)

and there is stiff fucking competition in the world of Mormon women

omg, so true! where i grew up, there was a sizeable Mormon population, and they were heavily involved in the community music and theater programs - they made _my_ mom feel lazy! And my mom, when i was growing up, worked 65-70 hour weeks, plus catered parties for my grandparents' numerous social functions, and cooked and cleaned for me and my dad.

yeah one of many reasons I'm not Mormon anymore, I like saying no

Church women are something else. I think Mormons might have that cornered, but I think Swedes could give them a run for their money!

there's also serious peer pressure among Mormon matrons!

It's not for nothing that there's a book for women called When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

She does a lot of unrequited good for a lot of people, and she's so kind and chill about all of it. But it's losing all this weight that finally earned her praise and attention and congratulations from both the women and men in her church . . . I was both relieved and fucking apoplectic to hear her say that it's the only thing that will earn women in her position any praise, that it's the only area of self-improvement people will recognize. Like, how cool that she's self-aware that that's bullshit, but how sad that that's the case. You have to look at the 99+% of the good things you are doing in life that have nothing to do with your waistline even if a lot of parts of society sometimes refuse to validate them.

This is so fucking otm it's not even funny. It speaks to what I was talking about earlier.

Big things I have done in my life:

Played 2nd chair 1st violin in a youth symphony
Graduated college
Moved to a city I'd never been to with just the stuff in my car and made it on my own
Moved to another country
Volunteered for various places and youth organizations
Gotten married
Cared for my sick mom a lot
Gone to graduate school and graduated with my MA and a 3.8 GPA

You know what people praised and gave me all sorts of weird attention for than all those things combined?

Losing 30 fucking pounds and getting down to a size 8/10.

I'm not sure gotten is a word and am pretty sure got would have sufficed there but you know.

Erica that is an amazing CV of awesome. Your actions make you a total hero to me! You have such a good heart and you're so strong, that's the most important thing.

You're always 1000% the most sensible person about women's health/repro issues, it's so fucking smart and refreshing, and it's because of all this personal & intellectual effort you've done. I mean when you're on your death bed that's the kind of shit that'll carry you through, I think, not "at least I'm not a size 16 anymore."

otm and otm

that is another thing that helps me when my brain gets crazy on me about this stuff. to think, i don't value people because they have the "willpower" to lose x amount of weight. the things i value are different.

the last time i was a size 16, i was pretty thrilled about it tbh

Gotten is a word, actually.

You also quit smoking, Erica!!! So many things not on that list I am sure you can give yourself credit on.

x-post Aw, thanks guys. You're totally right Abs about what I'll realize is most important. The things I listed are all way more important to me in the whole scheme of things and what ppl seem to put importance on is so completely ass-backwards. I'm just angry that I've spent so much time and energy on it all for the last 30 some odd years. That any of us have, really.

BULLSHIT.

lol Abs - I mostly quit. Still allowing myself to bum when drinking which is usually about once maybe twice a week and rarely amounts to more than 5 total. I'm OK with that because it's a lot better than a pack a day but I feel like I'm cheating saying I quit since i didn't do so entirely.

also you are all wonderful

and thank you - I feel better for having ranted and for the support.

<3

Ha I might have secretly started socially smoking, too.
I was seriously all ready to start again in March – 2 packs a day again because I was "thin" when I was smoking that much. Well how fucked up is that that a big part of me thought it would be wise to put fucking proven carcinogens into my body and not breathe well anymore and feel like an uncleaned bbq grill all the time in the idea of some potential of looking like a starving depressio again. Goddamn.

Also when I was smoking that much I was super poor and not spending money on FOOD and had not even a bicycle, getting everywhere by foot, so it wasn't just smoking that got me there, it was being at a personal nadir.

YMMV of course!!

yeah, take it from me, it is totally possible to smoke 2 packs a day and be a fatty.

Yeah. It's so fucked up but fear of gaining weight is def part of why it took me so long to even cut back this much. :/

there are so many fucked up emotional and self-image reasons why i haven't quit smoking ... i just don't even ...

I actually don't get how you can smoke 2 packs a day at all. I guess I probably have once or twice if that day also included a night out with booze. That's a lot of smoking though! Not nearly as bad as the old pres of BU who smoked 5 packs a day. How do you fit 100 cigarettes into 24 hours? HOW???

x-post - oh I very very strongly identified as a smoker and just couldn't imagine myself as someone who didn't smoke which is weird because ppl who don't know I smoke often find it strange to find out I do. Seeing myself as a non-smoker is really odd and prob part of the reason I keep allowing myself the social ones.

what's amazing to me is how people who do this stuff leave hobo marks on your psyche that other abusive people can immediately read.

― estela, Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

i missed this before and it is so true! and brilliant! y'all are amazing.

^^^

It is true, and I wonder how it's telegraphed, and I've seen it in action with certain people, but it's something that's hard to talk about because it can feel, even to yourself, like blaming the victim. But it is a thing.

There must be a facet of "this is what I deserve" in it, a passivity in certain moments.

i think it can sometimes involve a component of the abused person seeking out what's familiar but it needn't. i think estela was specifically referring to random driveby acts of cruelty.

The passivity is why I'm trying to learn to listen faster when someone is starting to border on manipulation in my hearing, because the speaker is judging you in microseconds, weighing their chances, and I don't hear them fast enough.

I've always had problems with this, too. I don't know if it's my bipolar-fed self-absorption or my auditory processing problems, but I often don't realize how much I'm being treated like a fool until later on.

You need to conjure my well calibrated bs detector -- it's what makes me good at my job!

I have so much to add to this convo abt moms and self worth and smoking but I feel like maybe we could start planning a fap so I don't have to type it all out. So much to tell.

god, i know, right?

Problem is, I live 100+ miles away from everybody. *cries*

1. I am standing on the shoulders of giants w/r/t anything I say on the matter of body image, although I am flattered by the props.
2. I am aces at wearing skirts in very cold weather and am happy to share tips and tricks.
3. I missed the big convo last night because I was attending a fundraiser for a trans-inclusive, feminist health center (I'm on the board) and being involved in something like that and seeing all of the amazing, confident people who have struggled with their bodies coming out to celebrate was pretty damn awesome. Also my gyn received a "golden speculum" award.

Your friend,
Jennya

uh, trans-inclusive, feminist health center sounds like my ideal place of employment tbh

I really hope that the award was actually a statue of a gold speculum.

I hope it actually was a gold speculum!

It was! The director made a good joke about the interns having to call the trophy shop and explain what they wanted them to make.

It's a great org. I'll talk about it off board or on 77 all day if you'd like.

I don't know how or when we would fap but it is a lifelong dream.

Looping back to my "therapy is awesome" drumbeat, I got involved with this org by googling "feminist therapy Chicago" which I wasn't even sure existed, and started seeing a counselor there and she was amazing. I mean, imagine feeling overwhelmed by the various demands society places on you to look perfect, and getting ridiculed bc you spend too much time trying to meet these standards, and then there's ANOTHER sexist beer commercial and a guy you've known and liked for years makes a rape joke on Facebook and tells you to quit being so humorless when you object and going to see a therapist and being like "Patriarchy! Rape culture! Insane, unattainable beauty standards!" and your therapist says "YES I KNOW."

She eventually moved out of town and recommended me for the board, which still cracks me up. "I've been a crying, anxious/depresso mess all over your office every other week for four years... Are you sure you want to recommend me for a position of responsibility here?"

catching up on what i missed last night. i <3 u guys.

It's not for nothing that there's a book for women called When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

i just bought this! haven't read yet, but i rly need to learn to be more assertive/self-assured.

xp <3

also catching up and too overwhelmed to say more than I hear ya, sisters, and <3 and hugs to you all!

wishing we could have a ladies FAP -- everyone's so far away, like thousands of miles away from me, except just1ne -- who i still haven't met.