no boys allowed in the room!!!!

He's from there.

i'm unsure of what's actually going on here:

1) are you trying to change his mind?
2) are you trying to convince yourself to agree with him?
3) are you genuinely trying to make this decision because he has proposed?
4) is this conversation about a decision that is, at this time, purely/almost entirely hypothetical?

The third one, but it turns out it is contingent on my not keeping only my own name. Which we had simply never talked about before, so we both feel blind-sided by the other.

I of course think he's being 100% retarded.

aha. well, at least it's not hypothetical -- those conversations are like precedent-setting provocations to argue.
on the other hand, congratulations?!

that's kind of a weird condition? like forgetting the point of getting married?

well i guess it depends what you think the point is

My understanding of the point last night was mostly "What fucking year is it again?!? Oh wait Southern Europe plus RC, you can't tell your family, can you, yeah now we're getting somewhere...."

Sorry, dint mean to be a big downer. Carry on with cooking or defining femininity!

eh there's a whole board for talking about cooking

How does he feel about making up a name that isn't either of yours? I know a few couples who did this and it worked out fine. They either meshed their last names together or came up with an entirely new one.

No, their name goes back a long way and has regional significance, it's not possible/acceptable to change it. That's the whole problem, apparently it will simply be too great a problem/too offensive to...his parents? Customs? The Church? I can't really tell who we're talking about here.

Well, unless there are serious Vanity Fair points to score for changing, hang onto the maiden for work at least.

I agree with Suzy. You could change it legally and sign your christmas cards with it but keep it for other purposes. More communication about this is needed between you too, obviously.

what a shitty compromise though, but i'm the worst compromiser

i mean it only makes sense if your only concern is having your own name at your job. if you just want to keep your name because it's your name, then what

Yeah, I don't know. If you legally keep your name and you have kids, then you still have to decide what the kid's last name is going to be. Is hyphenating an option in your situation Laurel?

Yeah it was too personal and too vague yest, not a discussion of real pros and cons. We will discuss again, esp after my nightmares this AM re feeling trapped & helpless & alone. For the time being I've agreed to hyphenate but the usage might be situational.

I got the msg as a kid that women who didn't take husband's name were non-believers who didn't understand God's plan for their lives (ie subservience), and that refusing to change was a sign of lack of commitment to the relationship and a warning sign of selfishness in other areas and/or that they might desert their families at any time. At some point that started to seem unfair and a lot like a load of shit, so I went the opposite direction.

Now I have to rethink -- obv the above is not true but neither is the reverse, necessarily. Trying to find potentially new and less reactionary comfort zone re this stuff.

laurel you are starting to make sense. it's neither one nor the other -- you have to find the solution that is right for you. you should do whatever you want; only you (will) know what that is. it's really hard to know what to do (what you would do) until you can evaluate your own unique individual circumstances.

i changed my name and did not do it because i am a devout xtian (not even a xtian at all) or because my husband asked me to (he didn't care) or because of the children (there are no children) or because any other reason you can probably think of. i did it for my own reason which is mine to know and has nothing to do with anyone who has the audacity to ask me why or question my decision to do what i want with my own fucking name.

ur not necessarily the reactionary one imo, keeping your name is pretty normal now

there are many options and they are all more or less normal in 2010 imo

I don't think I am either, harb, but a certain amount of this IS about compromise and how far am I willing to take my principles/what am I trying to achieve?

I do care about my name, am proud of it etc but it was acquired through adoption in a prev generation so it's debateably not even rly "mine" and etc etc. I'm not making excuses for giving it up, in fact I can't imagine giving it up, but just saying it's not black & white to me anymore.

It does seem like a load of shit. I once heard that Mrs means Mr's. I wonder if there is any truth to this. It got my fires burning hearing about it and it made me completely averse to the name change thing when I was pretty apathetic about it before. Of course it is a highly personal decision and who knows what I'll feel about it by the time I get married, if that even happens. Right now I think it will be based mostly on how cool the last name I'm supposed to adopt is compared to mine.

Plus if I hyphenate and maybe keep the maiden for career, that's 2/3 more than my own mother even thought about doing. I'm not saving the world here, maybe I could be content w a step in the right direction and trust that through all parts of my life I'll be teaching my own kids to believe something another step further away.

Not finding anything about the mr's. thing. Wish I could remember where I heard that.

yes! Good attitude Laurel.

Seems iffy to me because the Mister/Misses/Mistress/Master/etc formation has roots that goes through several languages, probably took a slightly different form in each.

nah it's not world-saving either way it's just a reflection of what you think marriage is supposed to be
mrs. is an abbrev of "mistress" i thought

so wait second -- is a decision to change one's name (a decision made freely and without coercion of any kind) a step in the wrong direction, then? i thought modern times had afforded us the freedom to make our own choices, not the freedom to keep our names.

Yes, this is what I found out in my brief research. Maybe I made it up? Looks like you've got it figure out now, though. Now you can joyfully celebrate being engaged!

I'm sorry, A, I fell into that hole AGAIN, prob because my conflict is all one-way. You're right, what we should be pursuing is personal freedom to choose.

But on the whole I think the ideal sitch would be one in which there's no expectation that either partner will change names.

but hey, the way I look marriage is about unity, why NOT identify yourselves with the same "brand" so to speak? (Even if as noted upthread you both agree on another name.. )

I say this with one of the most awesome last names in the world: Dick$ - which I love and might make into a middle name, at which point my name will sound like a sentence: Al3xis D1cks $teph3n - since his last name is a first name usually. Dirty!)
(Sorry about obnoxious googleproofing)

no expectation
^^ the important part

Hey, you could be married to the British gov't guy Ed Balls. Count your blessings. xpost

My Dad dated a woman whose last name was Ball :) Unfortunately the woman he fell in love with and married became.. Pat D1cks. *groan*

Woah - Laurel - congratulations!!!

Uh, thanks! It's supposed to be a secret right now b/c we don't have rings yet but it required pre-proposal discussion b/c we will BOTH be wearing engagement rings and I don't let anyone pick out ANYTHING that I have to wear every day. :D

I'm more bothered by the part about the engagement being off if you don't take his name. You do sound like you are desprately trying to convince yourself that your desison in this was right. Was this his idea, or his family?

Incidently, I not only kept my own very, very rare last name (which is not Indigo), I also was the one to propose.

What happened was more or less what I knew would happen -- we had the emotional version two nights ago, and a more reasonable discussion yest eve.

He retracted all the absolutes and asked me nicely and I am mollified, and of a much better mind to compromise in the first place.

ahhhhhhhhhhh much better
now you can start getting excited!!

OMG SQUEE no, jk.

of course, proceed calmly and rationally ;)

We sort of mutually agreed to it, no one really "asked" anyone so it's a little anti-climactic. If anything, having witnessed my sister's wedding preparations a few years ago has given me a new motto: Save the (wedding-related) drama for someone of no relation; your mama deserves better.

Laurel: awesome!!!! congratulations!!!

sort of related: am I the only person not 100% enthusiastic about men asking the fathers before they propose?

Uh yeah there was no consultation with any male parent involved.

I don't want my dad "giving" me away at the wedd, either. Partly because I think a lot of the wedding script is silly and why bother, and partly for very considered reasons such as: I am not leaving my father's household to go straight into the arms of another budding patriarch. That's some nonsense and I'm not going to play-act that that is what's happening.

OTOH I think Dad might be genuinely hurt, and that'd be awfully unfair and bad so I'll have to approach carefully w him.

Yeah, I didn't think you would be one for that tradition .

I was a party last month, and a guy was telling us about his proposal plans and he was going to ask the father AND the brothers. Which was struck me a bit much.

xpost - ooo yeah the "giving away" business.

My brothers would put the kibosh on that, no questions asked or answered. lol just thinking about their probable responses....

awwww, my fiance asked my Dad which I thought was very sweet & old fashioned & etc. Maybe my worldview is 2010 enough that I never expect any of these kinds of old-fashioned things, so it means more? Asking my Dad never said to me 'can I buy your daughter from you?' but more of a 'Do you feel I am good enough for your daughter?' My dad's response, awesomely, was something like "Sure, if she wants to" :) I got a no-ring proposal too because my Dad is a jeweller and they both knew I wanted him to make my ring. Been engaged a year now without the "official" ring, wearing a loaner from Dad in the meantime.. can't wait for mine, the idea is a bird's nest with a bird on either side of it and diamonds for eggs.. hope it works out!

Frankly my dad would prob be like, "Are you sure you've thought this through completely? You have met my daughter, right?"