Neil Gaiman - S/D

S: 1602, Books Of Magic mini shows off his good points (his love of mythology and storytelling) and his bad points (tendency to express this by means of either Mysterious Powers or talking hedge-pigs) within an engaging story.

D: Sandman. Death. Most other one-shots I've read.

If you've ever seen him talk, he = Gilderoy Lockhart from the Harry Potter books.

Sandman = frequently classic, always classy. I don't consider classy as much of a good thing as I did years ago, but no Gaiman = no Vertigo = (probably) no comics for Andrew.

If I remember correctly, the first Death mini is a'ight, though the second is bobbins. Nice art, though.

Miracleman = CLASSIC. No fuck off it is!

Did he do Signal To Noise? That was rub.

I agree that he's at his best in folktale mode. I took some Scandinavian folktale classes in college and remember thinking at the time that Neil had really done his homework as far as the style and structure goes.

Therefore, my favorite prose writing of his is 'Stardust' (haven't read the illustrated version), parts of 'American Gods', and his short stories (far and away my Gaiman material). Come to think of it, he would probably write a great Thor mini-series.

Sandman is overburdened with all prias e it got but is still brilliant i think in how it was able to rework so many different characters from the various DC worlds, horror/fantasy, superhero etc and make it (usually) all work.

I wanted to like Books of Magic more than I did.

his novels are ok but do not really stay in the mind.

S: A Doll's House, Dream Country, Season Mists, Fables and Reflections, Brief Lives

Meh: A Game of You, World's End, The Wake

D: Preludes and Nocturnes, The Kindly Ones

The villanelle at the end of Luther Arkwright is a classic example of him as professional classer-up. Give 'im a four pages and he'll up yer readership by 10k. He's also largely responsible for "At last there's a writer who understands the power of silence in comics!" which I seem to remember Tom hates.

Angela: dire but fun.

Batman B&W: I think this was the one which basically treated Batman & Joker as jobbing actors, complaining about their linecount etc.

Children's Crusade #1 was ace, all about how kids have their own mythology, and how the world is magic when you're younger (he actually makes this tired sentiment work) #2 was rubbish for no obvious reason (except maybe that it had to tie up the things that happened in the other 6 Vertigo annuals)

Alice Cooper: The Last Temptation! Jebus that was terrible.

His Hellblazer story "Hold Me" is still great, and very touching in it's mid-Thatcher setting. The mini-pullout on AIDS was pretty nice as well.

Stardust: Allright, but descending into self-parody.

I forgot to add Coraline to my list of favorites, his storyteller mode is perfect for freaky kid's tales.

Me thinks Gaiman is best with P. Craig Russell and Dave McKean.

Also most excellent and worth purchasing is his Two Plays for Voices double audio disk thing. It's got Murder Mysteries (featuring the voice of Brian Dennehy!) and Snow Glass Apples (featuring the voice of Bebe Neuwirth (aka Lilith from Frasier)!) performed with a full cast and real noises and such!

it's a LOT better than Alan Moore's k-rub whingey over-wordy run on Marvelman/Miracleman. And lest that sound like faint praise, the issue with the spies is one of the best ever comics issues ever.

Sandman is pretty much all good apart from the spinoffs and "The Wake". And the wanky goth fans.

Yes, drawn by Bisley with a fairly liberal regard for the script, and as such not making quite as much sense as you feel it was meant to.

S:
Violent Cases. His first comic and possibly still the best one he's done (McKean's done better since though, especially A Glass Of Water with Morrison while he was still in that illustrative mode)
The Books Of Magic. Only if you're a DC nerd, probably, but such a well-handled nostalgia-stroking, on par with Ambush Bug or Chase or, probably, New Frontier if it ever comes out in a sane format so I can buy it and find out.
Sandman. Some bits are much better than others, but big props for managing to tell a big coherent novel despite editorial wankery, inept colouring, the odd bit of shit art, and the whole long-story short-stories format. End justifies means, or something.
the Secret Origin Of The Riddler story whose title I can't remember, but it's gold. The '80s Riddler bemoaning the mindless grittiness of the current Batman world while prancing around a junkyard full of giant typewriters and comedy deathtraps. Plus! Pencilled by Bernie Mireault, inked by Matt Wagner, and coloured by Joe Matt!!
Hold Me (cf Farrel above)
Miracleman, though Silver Age was not shaping up to be as great as Golden Age. The latter aided by Mark Buckingham being a good and creative artist at that time.
on that note, Feeders And Eaters
Sloth, from the Seven Deadly Sins book that also had Alan Moore's fairly ace Lust.

D:
1602. "Step lightly sirrah, I dare say this ROOM may contain DANGERS of some fashion. Indeed, one might even call it a DANGER ROOM" etc ad infinitum. Plus the art was shit, and printed so badly that it looked like a laptop screen. Also fuck the 'it's not an alternate universe, it's the real Marvel Universe! Honest! Whatever has happened to it? Find out!' hype, and then in the last issue 'BOOYAH it's an alternate TIMELINE ha ha fooled you'. This might have been even more annoying if I gave two shits about the Marvel Universe.
any and all adaptations of short stories into comics. One Life Furnished In Early Moorcock, Harlequin Valentine, the lot. most egregious offender: Villanelle by Gaiman & McKean getting printed text-only as Luther's Villanelle in one of his books, then re-adapted into comics by some chancer in... an anthology with an Ed Brubaker cover. From Cult Press?
Angela (miniseries. The original Spawn story was fine for what it was.)
that whole Tekno-Comics debacle, especially bothering to write an intro/framing story thing for 'em all. The Rick Veitch/Bryan Talbot Teknophage series was ace though.

I'd forgotten about Chase until earlier today. I enjoyed it, but sort of knew the writer, D. Curtis Johnson (he did not sort of know me). I don't know if he did anything after getting to write the very next issue of JLA after Grant Morrison left.

D:
Most everything else.

Actually I have just realised that 1602 is the Gaiman book for Gaiman-hataz because it's him doing all the things they accuse him of so they can read the punchy-punchy stuff AND still feel smug at the end of it.

Black Orchid: the best superhero rewrite ever? Beats anything Frank Miller did with the genre.

A Doll's House, Dream Country, Season of Mists, A Game of You, The Wake: these are the better Sandman stories.

Death - The High Cost of Living: the most satisfying Sandman-related story he ever wrote.

A Signal to Noise: a nice, more experimental comic.

Books of Magic: good fun, though I liked the John Ney Rieber version even more, until it got really messy.

Stardust: nothing special here, but it works.

Harlequin Valentine: see above.

The angel detective story (what was it called?): see above.

D:

Preludes and Nocturnes, World's End, Kindly Ones, Endless Nights, Death - The Time of Your Life: these are the less good Sandman stories, which doesn't mean they don't have their moments. Endless Nights was perhaps the biggest disappointment, only the Delirium story was any good.

Violent Cases: I never quite got it.

- NG blogged about BookSlut
- BookSlut blogged about ILBooks (& possibly ILC)
- ILB lead to ILX
- ILX lead to ILC

QED, sho nuff.

xpost

xpost

That would be pretty brilliant.

xp, Death becomes her

there's no real sexy goth hippie equivalent these days is there

http://thematerialsleuth.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/die-antwoord-4.jpg

just heavier on the creepy and the afrikaner accent than you would've expected, can totally see WB taking that tact

gah what is that

be nice, i like yolandi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolandi_Visser

The writing in issue one of Overture is pretty damn bad. Maybe Sandman was always bad? Haven't re-read it for maybe ten years.

Sandman doesn't really bear a lot of re-reading ime. It's construction was p novel at the time - all these seemingly disconnected strands weaving in and out - but it's not really something with a lot of depth and a lot of the art is terrible.

let me add to that - the art is really, really terrible

I've been re-reading Sandman for the first time in 20 years and it's better than I remember. His over-writing has dated better than Alan Moore's over-writing. It's still terribly precious. But the bad stuff isn't as bad as I thought it would be. And A Doll's House is still terrific fun.

His over-writing has dated better than Alan Moore's over-writing.

Oh come now, Moore>>>>>>>>Gaiman.

No, I agree with you! Gaiman is third-tier compared to Moore. I'm thinking more of things like the text panels in Swamp Thing, which are atrocious. Although I suppose Gaiman gets away with a lot of indulgence for me, because I'd rather look at a paragraph of Todd Klein than a paragraph of John Costanza.

Re: Overture - I don't want to rep for it as a great work of comics or anything, but it's a lot more fun than Century or Neonomicon.

I'm getting back into reading Sandman and forgot how enjoyable it is.

Not a huge comics fan but after a few years of Alan Moore devotion I eventually got fed up of his constant literary eulogising and cthulu references. Maybe it was the latest crappy League albums but they were like a curates egg in a way. Will always rep for his best stuff but he's fallible,you know? And sandman is a lot of fun in its way. I've only read Prologue,Dolls House and I'm onot Seasons of Most now.

You shouldn't skip the shorts in between.

let me add to that - the art is really, really terrible

― Raccoon Tanuki

Got miles better and more consistent roughly halfway through the run, thankfully.

[Sandman doesn't really bear a lot of re-reading ime. It's construction was p novel at the time - all these seemingly disconnected strands weaving in and out - but it's not really something with a lot of depth and a lot of the art is terrible.

been re-reading the entire run recently, including the books I haven't read since they were initially published in monthly comics form, and this is still pretty much how I feel. For every "oh that's clever" mythological recontextualization conceit there's a ton of precious gothic mopey posing or hamfisted repetition of themes/plot points and omg some of the art is SO BAD. Hempel, P. Craig Russell and a handful of others acquit themselves well but man there is a lot of just sloppy scratchy poorly colored bullshit. Story-wise one of the things I find annoying about it is how mechanical and fatalistic it is - there are rules, and things various beings have to do, and that's just the way it is, and then it happens, and then it's over. The lack of agency on the part of so many characters, while obviously clearly rooted in some of the mythological traditions Gaiman is so fond of pillaging, also makes any real emotional engagement with the material difficult. It's very clockwork. I kinda don't give a shit about any of them except for Hob Gadling, maybe the only genuinely relatable/realistic character in the whole thing.

It is interesting to me that while this is the work that established him, judging from my personal anecdotal experience and the various other ilx threads, he managed to become a kind of cutesy goth cottage industry with a variety of points of entry for both comics and non-comics fans alike.

Has gaiman done anything worthwhile in years? Last efforts of his I tried were that rubbish Batman funeral nonsense and the first issue of Sandman Overture, which I couldn't be arsed going on with. Prosewise, Anansi Boys was enough for me to bail.

His short prose stories are still often good.

Anansi boys is a terrible pun. Book was ok.

The YA one about the pond (?) was forgettable. Downhill all the way after the first chapter.

I've just bought the Norse Mythology thing cheap on Amazon, am hoping that's better.

I am really enjoying his current adaptation of american gods with russell and hampton. Didnt read the book tho.

russell and hampton

?

P. Craig Russell and Scott Hampton are the main two artists on the comic adaptation of American Gods. They are also using some guest artists on some of the interlude sections like Walt Simonson.

Haven't read the novel, but I have seen the first season of the TV show and after reading the first 5 issues of the comic. I liked both enough that I'm looking for a paperback at the used book stores though.

I remember liking the book but am having trouble finding the time or enthusiasm to read it again.

Nowadays I think most folks know him because of the novels and the adaptations and the Twitter account, whereas Sandman is just a "weird comic he used to to do"

My partner and most of my family have read Neverwhere, I didn't much enjoy it but they all *loved* it

I've just been re-reading Sandman too, I'm at A Game of You, which iirc is where it starts to get boring

He's not to my taste, but I wouldn't underestimate the pull of someone who writes reasonably well-written, accessible, female-reader friendly adult genre fiction - he doesn't have a ton of competition there

Queer friendly as well. His politics have always been pretty good. But yeah in terms of actual writing skills, a lot of great ideas but hardly top tier when it comes pulling them all togther. I thought Sandman was the bollocks when I was a teenager but am scared to read it again.

I'm enjoying it so far, including the art, but it's better when it's a horror book. Anything to do with fairies, roman emperors, greek gods, Charles Vess, etc - forget it. And SO MUCH TEXT, I still want to skip it as much as I did when I was a teenager.

Also any version of the phrase "This is a story about stories" - argh.

I recall my teenaged brain saw all the text as a sign of literary weight - cf Moore's Swamp Thing (which admittedly holds up fairly well).

P. Craig Russell and Scott Hampton are the main two artists on the comic adaptation of American Gods

ah right - as far as I know that adaptation is written by Russell, as with all his adaptations, without collaboration from the writer.

Also any version of the phrase "This is a story about stories" - argh.

lol otm

Moore's purply prose in Swamp Thing doesn't bother me a bit, it's totally in the over-written horror vein of Lovecraft, Dunsany etc.

He's just a much better storyteller than Gaiman (or was), so it mostly doesn't matter, yeah.

Moore's prose style is horrible nowadays.

This is niche but lots of fun: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Nothing_O%27Clock_(short_story) - it's the first thing by Gaiman i've wholeheartedly enjoyed since I was a teen

Ah, yes, his Who work. i loved The Doctor's Wife, did not like Nightmare in Silver at all

The Doctor's Wife was written four years before Sandman Overture, or I would have mentioned it.

Nightmare In Silver was a total mess, but also was changed significantly from his script, and had major issues in production otherwise too.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/neil-gaiman-good-omens-michael-sheen-amazon-1202522663/

Casting pretty dead on, albeit whitedudey

Xpost - The short story is a lot better than either of his episodes.

I couldn't get through the first issue of Sandman Overture. Tedious.

Unfortunately it's the best issue, too

I've just bought the Norse Mythology thing cheap on Amazon, am hoping that's better.

Ah well

most of the JH Williams III comics I've bought were for him rather than the writing, and Sandman Overture was a great setup for him to run wild on.

Oh yeah very beautiful art for sure.

I finished up my re-read of Sandman with Game of You and jesus christ what a shitty mess of a book that is from start to finish, from the ridiculous Delany intro in the TPB to the totally unearned pathos of the closing funeral scene, I wanted to throw it across the room when I was done with it.

literally nothing about the story makes any sense, the setup, the characters, the resolution. All feels made up as it goes along, with plenty of garbage details and crappily conceived gender politics window-dressing thrown in, the art is painful to look at, BLECH

I remember GoY being one of the medium to better arcs, but I haven't read any of the original run for at least a decade.

there's a lesbian character who describes being coerced (although tbf it isn't really clear what happens, her description is deliberately muddled to foreground the character's total ignorance of hetero sex, which is really weird) into sex with a man and then skips a period and thinks she is pregnant so she asks Barbie how can she find out if she is really pregnant/what should she do. She asks Barbie if it hurts to have an abortion and Barbie says "not really". It is one of the most tone-deaf and poorly conceived sequences, it's really flabbergasting. And this is in the middle of a story arc that involves a trans character being told she's not really a woman cuz "the gods don't see it that way", and is subsequently killed (along with a homeless black woman) because Thessaly violates some magical law about the moon. And then Barbie is sad that her trans roommate is dead but apparently bears no ill will to Thessaly even though it is 100% her fault god there are so many fucking plot holes in this thing.

So anyone else watched the Good Omens mini-series on Amazon Video or whatever they call it?

It's... as good and bad as the book. Aziraphale and Crowley are pretty damn great in it though.

oh nevermind, this thread is in comics... didn't realize

Discussed on the Amazon Prime thread.

any version of the phrase "This is a story about stories" - argh.

― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 14 August 2017 12:57 (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

"Sandman is a story about stories"

Author @neilhimself explains the story of his famous comic ahead of its Netflix release#KayBurley MT pic.twitter.com/Zv0DjukouI

— Kay Burley (@KayBurley) August 3, 2022