Rolling Comic Book thread 2017

BTW
- in the TCJ's defense, it's worth remembering how inadequate, by and large, English language comics criticism was before the Journal. Gary Groth's allegiance to the Mencken/Thompson school of 'speaking truth to power' journalism, combined with a high cultural snobbery that had things in common w/ the Frankfurt School, staked out, really for the first time, an actual aesthetic position about comics - what they were, what they could be. It's definitely a position that can be argued against - there's something hilarious about someone like Groth, so utterly indifferent to the pleasures of popular culture, publishing ppl like Peter Bagge or Los Bros or Dan Clowes whose work is finely marinated in the kind of 'mindless trash' that Groth despairs about, and the Journal's project, in its 70s/80s pomp especially, was definitely archaic (from what little I know since then, Groth is deeply antagonistic to the modern instituionalisation of comics criticism and its embrace of post-war 'theory' of various kinds) , sometimes borderline reactionary, and overwhelmingly literary. But, as much by example, I think the Journal did help to elevate standards within the comic book industry, both in terms of the product and in terms of ethical standards (with of course compromises and lapses along the way.)

Groth is deeply antagonistic to the modern instituionalisation of comics criticism

― Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 24 October 2017 22:02

I don't know what this means.

Groth defended Kirby as a genius and I think he thinks CC Beck is the best superhero comics ever got. I think he likes plenty of what might be considered pop trash.
People really exaggerate TCJ's anti-pop genre stance. In the 70s-80s Kim Thompson really overrated what look like quite mediocre or terribly flawed comics probably out of desperation to find anything at all ambitious.
I would have went mad in their position. It's easy to say now that they didn't challenge the mainstream in a graceful and persuasive manner but jesus, people forget what it was like back then.

Wasn't it Groth that wanted to publish Fukitor?

95% of alternative comics have been marinated in pop trash. I'm fine with that inspiration because I'm the same but more variety would be nice.

When I was a teenager there was quite literally no one else approaching comics critically except the Journal. The CBG? The fuck outta here with that. Amazing Heroes? A good time, but no. Even as late as when Destroy All Comics came out, it was still something to gape in amazement at when another magazine appeared with a similar agenda.

Groth DID publish Fukitor.

I think he likes plenty of what might be considered pop trash.

I don't think he, as a 63-year-old man, engages with any of what might be considered pop trash.

Honestly some of my favorite Gary is his epic interviews with Gil Kane, frazetta etc, when he would sit down with these old craftsmen he became like the best interviewer on earth

It is deeply strange how having even modest critical standards seemed so transgressive. Even in the early 00s it was kind of a shock me to hear someone like Gil Kane or Steve Bissette being very honest about the quality of the comics I was reading.

I Still see comics and speculative fiction creators/fans in horrified disbelief when someone dares criticize the work.

are we really debating the merits of TCJ re: comics criticism? They fucking invented it, in the middle of a vast critical wasteland and with a lot of pushback from the industry at large. Jon not Jon otm.

I knew Fantagraphics published Fukitor but I was saying that I think it was one of Groth's choices. To be honest I don't if other people choose anything or how much Gary likes everything they publish.

I use "pop trash" loosely include what could seem that way to a more old fashioned snob. CC Beck, Kirby, Ditko and EC Comics fall under this. I haven't read CC Beck but I'm quite comfortable calling the others part greatness/part trash.

The entire FU line was created by Gary, basically to publish Fukitor.

Eric had commissioning power before Kim's passing, and is probably about equal to Gary in decision-making about projects now. Senior editors and Catron can pitch stuff, AIUI.

(Catron is super-engaged with and proud of his work on the EC collections; I'd be surprised if Groth has read that work since the 1980s.)

Don't really get the defensive reaction here to that TCJ piece - as I said I don't think it says anything new and it's preaching to the choir but even as someone who buys a buncha Big Two titles every month I can't imagine being a poptimist about US comics right now (or anytime during my lifetime, really) - there's good titles out there but the lifetime passes given to mediocre company men, the obsession with making every new character a legacy hero so you don't have to take a chance on something new, the endless events constantly insulting reader's intelligences by pretending that no this time the changes will be permanent honest...it can only really be a love/hate relationship, has been for the vast majority of intelligent critics and (perhaps more importantly) artists working in the field forever. And yeah while not everyone reading this shit is an entitled fanboy Marvel and DC certainly intentionally cultivate and pander to that kind of fan.

Article also OTM as to how the ad flows seamlessly from the comic so at first it seems part of it - it tricked me the first time I encountered it and sadly it was more entertaining than the rest of the comic tbf.

On the money.

I remember when I had mostly stopped following Marvel superheroes and they were bringing Thor back from the dead. The advert said "not a hoax, not a dream" or something like that. I honestly had no idea if this was tongue in cheek or if they really expected fans to be amazed they were bringing back one of their major characters.

I'm actually really enjoying that Clone Saga behind the scenes thing that Old Lunch linked on the other thread. I think it's interesting that so many people who hated it thought it had some ideas with a lot of potential, I kind of agree.
So much of it sounds utterly stupid in summary, also the summary of the Ultimate Clone Saga (Mary Jane turns into Demogoblin? What the hell?), which I hear was much better, was it?

"Not a hoax, not a dream, not an imaginary story" was a frequently used hyperbolic tagline on 'death' issues of DC and Marvel comics, eg

https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/3/70/5372ca84416c7/detail.jpg

(fukitor is great trash btw)

Little that was done with the Ultimate line was better than anything being done in the regular books. They very wisely moved a few of the elements that worked (Miles Morales, Reed Richards's evil analogue) over to the Marvel Universe proper and nuked that failed experiment.

If you want to talk about cynical mainstream exercises with no compelling reason to exist, Ultimate Marvel a good place to start.

Something that is much more apparent to me now, especially reading summaries (admittedly the summaries may not explain motivations well) is how often stories are compromised by the understandable demand for regular fights.
When I was a big superhero fan, one of my pet hates was seeing heroes fighting each other on the covers. It made them seem incredibly stupid. They're supposed to be admirable and intelligent but they find more reasons to fight than drunk sports fans.
A lot of the best villains are really smart too, so Dr Doom and Magneto should be difficult to provoke.

Wasn't Fukitor supposed to be really racist?

From what I've been able to cull from images online (having never heard of Fukitor before the discussion itt), it appears to be at the very least super uncomfortably rape-y.

it's really racist and really violent and obscenely misogynistic and horrible in all the same ways as s clay wilson or, i dunno, johnny ryan.
i was raised on undergrounds and have a lot of patience with that shit in comics if it's presented with self-awareness, panache and with an underlying awareness of what it's referencing.

it's definitely packed with homage to wilson to the gills, as in this splash page
NSFW obvs
https://books.google.com/books?id=7O1gDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT107&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

fingerman and dorkin and brunetti also come to mind as guys working in this style, though all with very different styles

I've never really understood why Matt Furie has such difficulty seeing the minor Boy's Club characters as both a personal creation which potentially exists to make $$$ and iconic representations which have evolved beyond the mundane intentions of (and which will almost certainly outlive) him buying some food off of them.

i would not consider fukitor kosher for ilx

xp because the dominant use right now, that has eclipsed goofy jokes, is in support of completely disgusting views?

I mean, I think it's dumb if large corporate entities sue people using their characters in parody or in homage, but it generally doesn't dilute the original work, and tends to subvert the context of the original work. For instance, the wave of Garfield memes and parodies doesn't change the fact that people still think of Garfield as this boring mainstay of the comics page and occasional cartoon character.

I see the most iconic Boy's Club character and immediately think "disgusting edgelords who scream about white genocide"

What happened to Furie is basically the worst thing I can imagine an artist experiencing wrt their art.

"Not a hoax! Not a dream! Not an imaginary tale!" is as cynical as any of the Big Two's current shtick but I like it better because a) it was mostly aimed at children, b) it has an old school huckster panache totally lacking in today's stuff and c) you usually found out that it was, in fact, a hoax/dream/imaginary story very quickly, often at the end of the issue. Now it's months of Marvel going through the motions of "no no no Steve Rogers is DEFINITLEY a nazi now", feeding off internet outrage about same and then finally revealing that yeah of course it was a fucking Cosmic Cube thing.

after all, they are ALL imaginary tales
makes you think

also xp to mordy
http://gfbrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/rcrumnotpolite-300x274.jpg

i mean i really enjoy it (i have to keep it stashed away since i don't want my kids browsing it) but it contains basically everything that your average sensitive politically conscious ilxor would find deplorable

I'm a little concerned for anyone who honestly thought that Captain America was actually a secret Nazi now and that that shit wasn't going to be completely reversed at some point.

I wish I could find the goofy single-page parody of the whole thing I saw on twitter

"Finally, the culmination of my genius lifelong secret plan!"
*logs on to twitter*
Tweets: "Hail HYDRA!"

In further search of what appealed to me about Marvel superheroes as a kid, I've been looking at Marvel Masterpieces cards. Trading cards of comic characters were huge for me, but I wish they had just been art books instead of all that waste of paper (doublers) and people buying insane amounts just to get rare cards.
I know some people hate them but I think the Hildebrandt brothers could create really powerful colours and lighting.

I'm not sure I would have got into superheroes through most of the popular DC characters. Maybe the colour designs of Marvel characters deserves more credit. Maybe the more defined anatomy of modern superheroes was important, the night time settings definitely were (maybe Frank Miller deserves that credit?).

I kind of wish I had my superhero phase later on in life. I'm glad I came to metal later on because I probably would have heard so much more crap metal if I started young.

I'm a little concerned for anyone who honestly thought that Captain America was actually a secret Nazi now and that that shit wasn't going to be completely reversed at some point.

It's a real thing! Saw lots of outrage on my FB timeline - though tellingly none of it came from comic book fans. It took a while for me to realise that, yeah, within most other kinds of culture a new plot development has a good chance of being permanent and not a six month "no man we take it back" thing.

Still kinda sad that Marvel can't just pitch that shit as an interesting story and has to go through those motions, though.

i mean i really enjoy it (i have to keep it stashed away since i don't want my kids browsing it)

This reminds me, in 1990 I left home for the first time and moved to Seattle and initially I was staying with my aunt and uncle while looking for a room somewhere. I brought my few boxes of favorite comics in from the car so they wouldn't get fucked up by weather. My second night there, I look over and somehow my ten year old cousin has pulled out a small stack of yummy furs and guess what page he has open

Fukitor is great, Mordy otm

xp

guess what page he has open

Ronald Reagan penis-head?

Re: Clone Saga again. I like how the deeply tortured Kaine must have sat down and designed a costume that expressed his despair but made room for his lovely hair. It must have taken him ages to get the veins right when he was knitting.

Xpost the spread where the scientists are cutting off dicks to perform the transplant

welp, you've scarred him now!

When I was 9 or 10 at my first comic shop visit, these Bissette covers taken a while to process. Especially the farting part.

https://www.comics.org/series/84895/covers/

wow I've never seen either of those

"comics: not just for kids anymore!" lol

this is the cover that most fucked me up as a kid
http://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/0e/5e/190e5eca6d555e99c831a81ac5bd4a4b.jpg

EC was just so great

I have that issue!! it may have been the first EC comic I ever bought.

all of the shock/crime covers are just incredible.

I got that one and the one with the junkie as a two-fer

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ep.tc%2Fproblems%2F29%2Fshk.jpg&f=1

that one def fucked me up too.