http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_Four_vs._the_X-Men
Especially that part where Kitty contemplates killing herself
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 12:26 (eleven years ago) link
Mutant Massacre - i hated that, thought it was an ill thought out debacle (of course i bought all te books) but it was - as usually turns oust to be the case a stupid ending and it wa sthe start of my deep annoyance, verging on hate of the X-books as I (as ranted on other comic threads before) thought the variance between the rest pf the MU where these people interact with other heroes and so there should be some pushback on the hatred just went ridiculously over the line
i guess this is why i have Uncanny Avengers which, umm.., is not what i wanted (be careful what you wish for being the message again) and have no idea if just coz i have not been reading comics in a while that it seems bad or is bad
now also mebbe coz of age but i loved the mutants in asgard set across x-men and new mutants, karma lost her weight, sunball was happy for a change, hanging out with warriors three, magik turning tables on enchantess, felt like there was charcter development with just a fun bring these two worlds in the MU never meet together and have fun with it
― H in Addis, Thursday, 11 April 2013 16:59 (eleven years ago) link
i read that sean howe marvel marvel book last month -- totally great! made me want to read (or re-read) a bunch of things. I think as a kid the first thing I read was Fall of the Mutants, but as I went back into that mutant massacre stuff, that's the stuff that really sticks with me. the only thing i have left is a collection of those asgard stories -- pretty fun.
― tylerw, Thursday, 11 April 2013 17:02 (eleven years ago) link
xp: conversely, I thought reading a multipart story where multiple heroes were seriously hurt/disfigured and the bad guys won, setting up a series of plot strands with major consequences on the books for the next several years (particularly on the X-Factor side) was amazing
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 17:05 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, I think that was why i loved it too dan
― media conglomerates are pedaling the same product (stevie), Thursday, 11 April 2013 17:19 (eleven years ago) link
Mutant Massacre also didn't really have anything to do with public mutant-hate, right? It was basically a squad of mutant goons mass-murdering the Morlocks for reasons unexplained, and our heroes getting torn up as they try to intervene.
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 11 April 2013 18:02 (eleven years ago) link
yup
It was a pretty shocking way to jump into collectordom
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 18:04 (eleven years ago) link
I'd bought the issue before, which was an anti-racism self-contained story where Kitty faced down a mob screaming at a kid by shaming them with a bald allegory to her own mutant powers (which she didn't use) that was intercut with the story of Frankie and her Hellfire Club guard boyfriend running from some dudes trying to kill them, ending with Frankie getting shot at the entrance of the Morlock tunnels; it was very jarring seeing them go from being able to use words to defuse a situation to them just getting torn up by the Marauders, plus mix in Wolverine's freakout over discovering Jean was back and it was just awesome plot juggling.
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 18:08 (eleven years ago) link
like earlnash i too have recently read and enjoyed sean howe's marvel book, but reading this thread now, i wonder if i liked it because i'm basically in sympathy with its elevation of the 70s material at marvel over and above anything since. it v. much paints the claremont-byrne era as the peak of the x-men, because of the creative tension-equilibrium between the pair of em (once byrne left, ironically, the title became even MORE popular, but there was nobody to counteract claremont's more hopeless flights of fancy, and in time the commercial imperative - crossovers, spin-offs, multiple titles etc - really diluted the previous 'purity' of the brand.)
also reading this thread prompted me to read the wiki entry on Mutant Massacre - hadn't known before that the plot was a reworking of a failed attempt to integrate the alan moore captain britain material into the US marvel universe (failed because moore had copyright claim on his Captain Britain strips.) marvel did ultimately publish the moore-davis Cap Brits, and i've never read excalibur, but i'm guessing that claremont did eventually get to play with that universe when he was writing it
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 11 April 2013 18:22 (eleven years ago) link
I don't think Claremont got to using The Fury until the 2000s, but someone factcheck me on that
― Nhex, Thursday, 11 April 2013 18:24 (eleven years ago) link
I think Nimrod was his attempt at the Fury, yes? Paul O'Brien gets into this when he discusses the Alan Davis run much later on.
My pet theory, spoiler alert for a blog coming in 2024 or so, but I'm convinced that what ruined Claremont wasn't the loss of a strong partner in Byrne, but having to make sense out of Marc Silvestri's fucking horrific, incomprehensible pencils month after month, for a seemingly endless period of the title. More and more each page fills up with text that's just trying to establish what's happening past all the scratchy, distorted nothingness and gradually Claremont's work-week has less and less room to work out where the plot is all going....
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:00 (eleven years ago) link
how do you explain Sovereign Seven, then
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:01 (eleven years ago) link
Can't put that mess on Silvestri, man. Claremont's baby through and through!
― Nhex, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:03 (eleven years ago) link
I guess I'm contending that his hand cramped up somewhere around the 304th "focused totality of my psychic power" and he was never the same after. It's like Nilsson and Pussy Cats.
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:04 (eleven years ago) link
"What's that you're doing there, Wolverine? Are you using your razor-sharp adamantium claws to bust us out of this cage? Because it mostly just looks like a bunch of random lines thrashed themselves in front of you while you stood perfectly still while clenching every muscle in your body and grimacing. Are you okay?"
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:05 (eleven years ago) link
"Also, where are we? Because all I see behind us is a mauve nothingness?"
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:06 (eleven years ago) link
Claremont's work was always a little too expository but he kept getting worse over the years until 90% of his 2000s work was just long descriptions of the physical characteristics of characters and their powers
― I, rrational (mh), Thursday, 11 April 2013 19:57 (eleven years ago) link
there was a fantastic issue of Kelly's Deadpool run where Wolverine shows up and has increasingly wordy speech bubbles to the point where Deadpool himself starts going "Damn Logan, how do you do all of that in one breath? Is this a mutant power shared by all X-Men?"
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Thursday, 11 April 2013 20:12 (eleven years ago) link
claremont wrote plenty of shit before, during and after his byrne collaboration (in the howe book there's a moment in the 1990s when claremont and byrne might get back together on the x-men, and it's like a pink floyd reunion gig, only not for charity, and only it never happens). i'm guessing that his increasing verbosity was partly an effect of enjoying a p free editorial hand, and partly an effect of the 'marvel style' itself, which often finds artist and writer at cross-purposes (perhaps my single fave moment in the howe bk is when steve englehart bitches abt george tuska ignoring Power Man sub-plots that englehart had included in his outline, just because tuska didn't feel like drawing em - it was easier, more lucrative to blap out twenty pages of four panel fight scene pages.)
― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 11 April 2013 20:18 (eleven years ago) link
man, if I had the energy I would totally transcribe the first five pages of Uncanny X-Men #96 right now
― que sera sriracha (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 12 April 2013 07:50 (eleven years ago) link
I am happy to confirm that Uncanny Avengers is really terrible.
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 12 April 2013 09:11 (eleven years ago) link
the latest issue is okayish, but not okayish enough for me to justify buying it
RIP Rogue and Havok, I tried
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 14:44 (eleven years ago) link
Awww for real..?
― que sera sriracha (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:12 (eleven years ago) link
for real I'm dropping the book (Rogue and Havok are obv still alive, although Rogue apparently just killed Wonder Man's brother)
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:18 (eleven years ago) link
it's not the worst comic, but I feel like Remender has decent ideas and really clumsy execution
sweet art, though
― I, rrational (mh), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:20 (eleven years ago) link
oh, also leaden dialogue
it's definitely the worst of the Marvel NOW books I'm reading
I mean, X-Treme X-Men is better, that should tell you something
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:21 (eleven years ago) link
a book that finally delivers the hot Wolverine/Hercules action fans didn't know they needed
― I, rrational (mh), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:30 (eleven years ago) link
X-Treme X-Men was ok, I just wish it had some kind of actual ending or remembered the original premise of the book
― Nhex, Friday, 12 April 2013 15:36 (eleven years ago) link
I will say though that I had no idea I'd be picking up so many Avengers books in the wake of Marvel NOW!
Avengers Arena in particular is so much better than it has any right to be
also Hawkeye roolz
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:39 (eleven years ago) link
Nhex, I think DJP is talking about the new one which is basically Exiles 2.0
― I, rrational (mh), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:41 (eleven years ago) link
Nhex probably is too; the book has been canceled and is being wrapped up as part of a stupid crossover that only seems to exist as a mechanism to kill the various characters created for X-Treme X-Men and the AOA series
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:43 (eleven years ago) link
That Lapham AOA series had some moments
― I, rrational (mh), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:43 (eleven years ago) link
oh, i had no idea they brought the title back. i was thinking of the Claremont book that ran concurrently with Morrison's New X-Men ten years ago
― Nhex, Friday, 12 April 2013 15:44 (eleven years ago) link
it would be funny if black Cyclops survived in regular continuity though, because then there would be three Cyke variants running around and other characters could start calling him "nu-Jean"
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:44 (eleven years ago) link
they really didn't have enough time to flesh out black Cyclops
― I, rrational (mh), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:47 (eleven years ago) link
what do you mean, we know he's black and he's Cyclops, and... um...
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 16:13 (eleven years ago) link
Black Cyclops? Maybe I do need to start reading X-Men comics again
― Nhex, Friday, 12 April 2013 17:46 (eleven years ago) link
we forgot to mention that he's dressed as a Union soldier, btw
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Friday, 12 April 2013 17:47 (eleven years ago) link
Thoughts on Jason Aaron's Wolverine & The X-Men? I'm really enjoying it as of about ten issues in
― CAROUSEL! CAROUSEL! (Telephone thing), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:16 (eleven years ago) link
I think it started great but went downhill somewhere around the circus issues. Had at least a good year/18 months.
― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 27 August 2013 03:22 (eleven years ago) link
That's about right. The recent Hellfire Club showdown is an uptick in quality but not as high as the initial issues.
― (what was the purpose of that stupid costume) (DJP), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 04:36 (eleven years ago) link
Agreed. I think I described it somewhere as a half-hearted attempt at rehashing Mojo Mayhem, which might be a bit crude but probably works in big handfuls.
― Troughton-masked Replicant (aldo), Tuesday, 27 August 2013 07:19 (eleven years ago) link
Reading the first Uncanny omnibus. So great, and I haven't even gotten to Byrne yet! Also:
http://i.imgur.com/S3VtNUN.jpg
― ruth rendell writing as (askance johnson), Tuesday, 7 January 2014 02:37 (ten years ago) link
For those fans of the Claremont/Byrne X-Men, be sure to go and check out Essential Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3. That is a really good Marvel Essential and is filled with Bill Mantlo and Claremont stories with primarily John Byrne artwork. In hindsight, I would think the Spider-man/X-men story in Marvel Team Up along with that Iron Fist/X-Men story should probably be reprinted along side the Uncanny X-men issues. Maybe they will catch those when they re-do the X-men in those new 'epic' trade series Marvel is starting.
It's hard to defend Byrne considering some of the things he said. I know I kind of lost some respect for him back in the 80s when I went to one of the Mid-Ohio cons and he just came off like an ass (and the fawning fans around him was weird), but I still liked his artwork quite a bit. He definitely seemed like a guy that probably thought he crapped gold.
That said, John Byrne had a pretty cool style that seemed to cut the middle between Gil Kane and Neal Adams and I think in hindsight through Byrne's influence through Jim Lee is pretty much become one of the de-facto styles of super hero comic artwork. Those late 70s through mid-80s Marvel comics though are still quite well done. I think in hindsight, you can see even the cracks in the DC Superman run. There are a few issues that are pretty good, but there are some total dogs in there too (like the Big Barda Action issue).
― earlnash, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 07:25 (ten years ago) link
xp lol chuck was such a dick
― Nhex, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 08:06 (ten years ago) link
It's kind of funny reading that panel considering how Ed Brubaker and Josh Whedon kind of went back and really ret-con made Xavier look like an ass.
― earlnash, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 08:12 (ten years ago) link
made him look like more of an ass, or less of an ass?
― Nhex, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 08:26 (ten years ago) link
I think these two stories kind of make Chuck X look quite a bit like a bad guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_Deadly_Genesis
"Dangerous" (Issues #7–12)This Whedon arc features a Sentinel attack with a mystery mastermind. The culprit is the Danger Room, which is becoming sentient and appears as a robot called "Danger." Whedon establishes that Professor X imprisoned Danger and made it an unwilling host of the Danger Room, leaving the X-Men disgusted. Whedon also revealed that Emma Frost is aligned with the newly formed Hellfire Club.
― earlnash, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 23:13 (ten years ago) link
Note that this is the same Professor X that threw that temper tantrum, was jealously in love with his student, faked his death how many times...
― Nhex, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 23:59 (ten years ago) link