New Eightball Noise!

Well yeah, the main character in Wilson comes off as a jerk, but it's not like he is contrasted with some likable non-cynical characters either. That's what I meant when I said that in Clowes' comic people tend to be either bastards or stupid or both. It's not that he's saying cynicism is the road to happiness, it's just that he doesn't seem to have much faith in people in general.

Wilson's my faves thing he's done in the past 10 years.

I thought Death Ray was the greatest thing ever.

yeah my reaction is similar to Tuomas'

LIke A Velvet GLove and David Boring are the only ones I seem to return to after a first read.

Wilson felt to me like Clowes repeating himself for the first time -- like one of those prestige Seth comics -- well-crafted but sort of dull

That's what I meant when I said that in Clowes' comic people tend to be either bastards or stupid or both.

to expand on this, Clowes seems to have no real affection for his characters. they are presented alternately as objects of pity & scorn. Oddly Peter Bagge, by contrast, while detailing similar sorts of pathetic mysanthropes and losers, renders them with more joy and sympathy.

I like how Wilson deals with his dog's death. "Never use this voice again."

to expand on this, Clowes seems to have no real affection for his characters. they are presented alternately as objects of pity & scorn. Oddly Peter Bagge, by contrast, while detailing similar sorts of pathetic mysanthropes and losers, renders them with more joy and sympathy.

Yeah, this. It's probably no coincidence that Ghost World is by far his most popular comic, since Enid is one of his few characters he treats with empathy (even though she's not that much less pathetic than Clowes' other protagonists).

I think he's totally empathic towards his sad-sack balding cranky middle-aged non-fashion-plate characters d00ds

in what way

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/spiritscar/CesarDanClowes.jpg http://www.raincoast.com/images/uploads/wilson-clowes.jpg

yah he's self loathing

significantly resembling one of your characters /= empathizing with your characters

"I know lots of misanthropic types," he says. "I tend to like them. I find it sort of healthy, comforting. It's a better default setting than over-optimism. But I don't think of Wilson as misanthropic. He thinks he's going to make a connection with people, that they'll be on his wavelength, and then gets frustrated when they aren't. But he doesn't go into it thinking: look at this jerk! He has a naive faith in humanity. I guess there's a certain kind of person who can't relate to him in any way. People seem to need a likable protagonist more than ever. It's because they're so used to being fed that in the movies. I find it insulting, the way movies try to ingratiate themselves with the audience that way. I'm more interested in characters who are a little difficult."

I must confess to having a similar relationship with my poor dog. I have this dog that I've had for the past eight years. While my wife and son are off at work and school, this dog is here with me all day and I find myself talking to her all the time. I take her out for walks. She is a pretty exceptionally cute dog and so I'm constantly having conversations with people about the dog. People are often ignoring me and talking directly to the dog. It's a big part of my life. There's an emotional connection that you have to these animals. It's hard to explain and it's a very personal thing, nobody else can quite relate to your relationship to your pet. Nobody else feels the same way about your dog that you do.

Yeah, I think that he's very much an Oakland guy. That was my impetus when I started. I wanted this guy to be from Oakland, the kind of guy you would see walking around in the neighborhood where I live. (...) It's a specific type that I feel doesn't always get talked about a lot in the media, you don't really see them represented. Certainly, all of my friends, pretty much, are of this class of people. I wanted that very specific Oakland-ish guy in there.

Likable characters are for weak-minded narcissists. I much prefer the Rupert Pupkins and Larry Davids and Scotty Fergusons as my leading men. And I actually kind of like Wilson. He'd be fun to hang out with in short and finite increments.

I also sort of admire a guy who can sit down at a table and just talk to somebody, even though he fails miserably at making a connection.

I just started writing these strips about this irritating guy. The more I worked on it . . . I don’t wanna say I liked him, but I found his human side.

Enid would probably get a kick out of Wilson. He’s the kind of person I tend to tolerate a lot more than other people do. I know other people are often heading for the hills when guys like that come by, but I’m often amused by this type, and I think Enid would be too.

People seem to need a likable protagonist more than ever. It's because they're so used to being fed that in the movies. I find it insulting, the way movies try to ingratiate themselves with the audience that way.
...
Likable characters are for weak-minded narcissists. I much prefer the Rupert Pupkins and Larry Davids and Scotty Fergusons as my leading men.

See, this is where I disagree with him. I don't mind reading a story with a jerk protagonist once in a while, as an experiment, but Clowes has pretty much built his career on writing characters like that. And the reason it becomes hard emphasizing with such characters is not because Hollywood has brainwashed us into accepting only likable protagonists, it's because most people aren't jerks. As Shakey said, comics like Hate prove you can write jerk charactes with sympathy, but the misanthropic way Clowes treats his gets tiresome after a while.

fwiw Rupert Pupkin is totally likable, I feel for that dude when I'm watching King of Comedy.

it's the earnestness, the naivete of the character.

Clowes may publicly profess to empathize and enjoy his protagonists, but I don't think it really come through in the work. If he's deliberately constructing protagonists in such negative terms, most readers are going to have a hard time empathizing with them. Even with someone like Larry David there's a degree of empathy, because he's like everyone's worst impulses unleashed and people can identify with that. But if Curb Your Enthusiasm was just Larry being a horrible person moping around by himself because he's alienated everyone it wouldn't really be an entertaining show, it would just be depressing.

There are episodes like that! But they generally tend to be the less enjoyable ones.

I like Clowes, I'm just fed up of this angry social ineffectual loner persona that consistently, boringly keeps turning up in Seth/Ware/Matt etc. It seems like a very 90s type. And there's no depth there.

oh I wouldn't lump Joe Matt in there (for one thing he hasn't put out a comic in what, 6 years?)

"And the reason it becomes hard emphasizing with such characters is not because Hollywood has brainwashed us into accepting only likable protagonists, it's because most people aren't jerks."

Hollywood tends to all have jerk protagonists. They're just charming jerks. Some actors have entire careers based on playing and being charming jerks!
I'm not sure where this Clowseian charmless jerk fatigue is coming from unless your entire media diet consisted of Charmless Jerk Illustrated.

it comes from reading Clowes' comics. the next installation of which had better be called Charmless Jerk Illustrated.