DUNE: c/d

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i've read them many many times.

i understand the series up to the fourth book.

my comprehension gets rather fuzzy at the fifth.

i've been rereading the sixth in bits and pieces to try to get it.

TOTALLY CLASSIC.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:03 (seventeen years ago) link

also, if possible:

discuss possible links between herbert's mania for unconstrained, natural environmental development with his running story about "The Tyrant" with the strong authorial intervention at each step of the way with his seeming inability to settle on an overarching theme for the story (i mean, he seems to revise the whole continuity in every book! first the tyrant hates the bene gesserit - then all of a sudden they're the only hope in the universe - then they're subsumed into the matres?? and that was the master plan??)

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Dune was my absolute favorite book when I was a major sci-fi fan. I read the first 6 - up to Chapterhouse. I'm not sure if any came out after that. I even had (still have, somewhere, in storage, I hope) the Dune Encyclopedia which purports to be an actual reference work published within the Dune milieu. However, it's been years since I've read any of them, and I couldn't really claim to understand them very well. Actually, the one I remember being the most baffled by was Children of Dune. I can't even remember what happens in that one.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:13 (seventeen years ago) link

alia is possessed by baron harkonnen
paul muad'dib's children grow up a little bit
jessica returns to the bene gesserit
she decides leto ii is an abomination
because alia has tricked her
alia turns princess irulan against leto ii
they manage to have leto ii tossed into the desert
the duncan idaho ghola is captured by irulan's relatives
leto ii is captured by superstitious wild fremen
duncan idaho turns irulan's relative into a mentat
thus ensuring his own survival
he returns home and tricks stilgar into killing him
because he needs stilgar to flee into the desert
so that alia/irulan's position is weakened
leto ii meets paul muad'dib who is now a mad prophet
leto ii turns into a sandworm
leto ii returns to town with his father
who preaches messianic fascism to the people
alia's guards kill paul muad'dib
leto ii reveals that he is now part sandworm
and that the empire will worship him
because he is strong and cruel
alia realizes all is lost and commits suicide
leto ii becomes emperor
his sister marries irulan's relative
so now leto controls the old houses, too
happy ending.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:36 (seventeen years ago) link

how much do you want for the dune encyclopedia, man?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

i think the point of "children of dune" was something like struggle > comfort, and that the 2nd generation (born into comfort) will naturally be attracted to struggle (because it's the evolutionary force of the universe)

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:39 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think I could part with the Encyclopedia. I'm not even still sure I have it. If I do, it's in someone's garage in California, whereas I am in NYC - and it would be difficult to access. I was somewhat surprised to see that they're going for as much as $75 on Ebay though. I remember reading somewhere that the Herbert estate has put the kibosh on reprints of it, since it conflicts in some particulars with the later Dune novels, so I guess that explains the scarcity.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:47 (seventeen years ago) link

You guys didn't understand them? As weird as they are, they're pretty straightforward, plot-wise, at least on their own terms. Once you wrap your head round the idea of people turning into worms (and mroe importantly, the worms' life cycle) then you're well away.

As for story arcs - I didn't think there NEEDED to be one. One of the most attractive points of the books is the way that people swap from side to side - you root for someone that you previously hated.

Johnney B (Johnney B), Sunday, 11 January 2004 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link

johnney - what is the point of "chapterhouse: dune", then? actually, wait, let's go backwards. what is the significance of the discovery of leto's cache of records in "heretics of dune"? i understand that the bene gesserit missionaria was immeasurably strengthened by discovering leto's blueprints for the imperium-wide religious training he imposed on his subjects but the book is maddeningly vague on the details. furthermore i have little to no understanding of how that ties into sheeana. ok she can control the worms but does that necessarily mean she is the fulfillment of leto's missionaria? just because you have stigmata doesn't mean you get to be pope!

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link

and besides, isn't the grander point of the last two books the way the bene gesserit gradually rejects the overt manipulation of humanity (genetic grooming, the missionaria, etc.) in favor of a more "natural" or dependent or benevolent relationship akin to that between the fremen and their desert?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

four years pass...

Best baddies ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7DSvMKzMj4

Bodrick III, Saturday, 1 March 2008 22:12 (twelve years ago) link

eleven months pass...

I am going to an SF book club tonight, where the book is DUNE.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 13:20 (eleven years ago) link

I read the first one long ago and man, that was way more than enough.

Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 14:36 (eleven years ago) link

Dune the first one = Classic.

Probably one of my top 5 SF novels - loved how the setting was based around this hard environmental science (which in retrospect doesn't make sense anyway), but then it kind of deliberately tried to piss off all the physics nerds by inserting all this great psychic/telepathy stuff into the narrative. "Screw realistic FTL travel, let's just stick this alien in a tank, feed it hallucinogenic drugs, and it can bend us through space and time." Also loved the idea of the Mentats - "we don't trust AI so we will train humans to be computers instead."

It is a) one of the few canonical SF novels that really stands up, b) seems to pave the way for New Wave in the 1960's and simultaneously make a break with SF as it was in the 40's and 50's (although admittedly this is pure speculation on my part as it was many decades before my birth - contemporary fans and writers may have felt differently).

The rest of the series seemed like a dud to me though - I've read several of the sequels multiple times and really I can't remember anything much about them, except the impression that Frank Herbert really didn't want to write them (maybe that is wishful thinking).

ears are wounds, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 15:29 (eleven years ago) link

first few posts on here are great

haven't read dune since i was 12, but

"seems to pave the way for New Wave in the 1960s": it came out in '65! although bits of it were being serialised, somewhere, before then. actually, in 'trillion year spree' or 'billion year spree' or whatever its called uneasy New Wave figure b. aldiss admiringly quotes bits of dune at length in order to say: "now, see, this, this is better than all those stories with typographical fol-de-rol, this is what REAL modern sf looked like"

thomp, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

i fucking LOVE dune

max, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

Herbert named one of his characters "Pieter de Vries", which is one letter away from the name of the 20th century comic novelist Peter de Vries. It's a surreal touch. I like to imagine Herbert thinking "let 'em figure that one out."

alimosina, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:20 (eleven years ago) link

It was a nod to skot.

lemmy tristano (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 12 February 2009 00:34 (eleven years ago) link

it came out in '65!

For some reason I thought it was like 1960-61. But nevertheless Wikipedia dates the beginning of the New Wave movement to 1964 (which is when Michael Moorcock became editor of New Worlds) and the peak as 1971, so it is certainly contemporaneous and definitely could have been an influence on later New Wave writers. Dangerous Visions is debatably part of the New Wave stuff (depends if we just see it as a British phenomenon), but it is often cited as the definitive American New Wave anthology and that came out after Dune in 1967.

ears are wounds, Thursday, 12 February 2009 10:25 (eleven years ago) link

Given that no one seems to really like the sequels (apart from me, obv.), and The White Plague is ye liveliest awfulnesse, did Frank Herbert write anything else any good? Or was he a one book writer?

The Real Dirty Vicar, Saturday, 14 February 2009 13:32 (eleven years ago) link

he wrote this hilarious little dirty limerick on a bathroom wall once

latebloomer, Monday, 16 February 2009 03:48 (eleven years ago) link

i've heard The Whipping Star is good

goole, Monday, 16 February 2009 04:28 (eleven years ago) link

Whipping Star is my favorite Herbert.

alimosina, Monday, 16 February 2009 22:13 (eleven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

I only read the first 3 or so when I was about 20. I loved them & want to read them again, but the only way I can read everything I want to read, keep up my internet addiction, walk the dog, draw, eat, sleep, keep husband, etc, is to shunt several Beth Parkers off to parallel universes, then reunite them periodically into one super Beth Parker, rinse, repeat.

After all, failing to bathe, change clothes or clean house only buys you so much time.

Beth Parker, Friday, 6 March 2009 14:53 (eleven years ago) link

You need a spice eating monster to bend you some extra time.

I should go back and read Dune again as I remember loving it then devouring the sequels - though they never quite lived up to the first one.

the innermost wee guy (onimo), Friday, 6 March 2009 16:32 (eleven years ago) link

You need a spice eating monster to bend you some extra time.

Failing that, retirement, at least by the time I hit 80. Disability?

Beth Parker, Saturday, 7 March 2009 00:05 (eleven years ago) link

seven months pass...

reading the first one again 4 the first time since i was like 12 or 13 ... so so dope

i got nothin (deej), Tuesday, 20 October 2009 08:26 (eleven years ago) link

Dune is a classic, even outside of its narrow genre.

Has anyone read the sequels written by Frank Herbert's son and a co-author? I assume they're terrible. (TBH, I thought the last book or two in the series by Frank Herbert were borderline-terrible, e.g., God Emperor of Dune).

Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 20 October 2009 10:07 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah they're awful, the old man and woman at the end of Chapterhouse are not intelligent face dancers but AI survivors from the butlerian jihad

Also Heretics and Chapterhouse are awesome novels but there are inexplicable elements in them that don't seem to blend well with the earlier stories but perhaps that's because i never finished reading God Emperor which is quite boring

Obamacare Death Panel for Cutie (wssp), Thursday, 22 October 2009 20:26 (eleven years ago) link

Yeah, IIRC, nothing happens in God Emperor. Lotsa "thinking" and "plotting."

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 22 October 2009 20:32 (eleven years ago) link

one month passes...

Guild Navigators are REAL!!!
http://cache.boston.com/universal/bigpicture/13_200716.jpg

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:24 (eleven years ago) link

(My nerdiest post ever? No, it's probably something to do with Starfleet Battles)

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:25 (eleven years ago) link

ilx is very booknerd today.

thomp, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:26 (eleven years ago) link

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/259/godemp.jpg

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 21:52 (eleven years ago) link

Hmm, did a search and thought this was an ILE thread...

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 22:29 (eleven years ago) link

Hey so, is there really any reward in reading past the first one? I've read it maybe three times over the last, let's say 10-12 years...I like a lot of the Big Ideas (mainly the whole notion of a character realizing he is the Prophesied Chosen One and being really freaked out about it), but the characters/plot sort of ooze together in the last third or so and I've just never been tempted by the sequels - they feel like cash-ins, but are they?

Doctor Casino, Friday, 4 December 2009 10:37 (eleven years ago) link

four months pass...

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

An awesome seriously in-depth looks at the Origins of the Book.

WTF cat with unfitting music (kingfish), Friday, 23 April 2010 19:22 (ten years ago) link

really loved the first one and the fourth (god emperor of dune). The Brian Herbert ones are uniformly terrible.

toastmodernist, Friday, 23 April 2010 23:54 (ten years ago) link

Before I read it, Dune always had a certain mystique to me. That was the result of some combination of the cover, the fact that my older sister had a copy of it and spoke reverently of it, and my failed attempt to read it when I was too young. (I really couldn't handle long-playing novels until I was in 7th, maybe 8th grade, and still didn't read many then.) When I finally read it many years later, I definitely enjoyed it, but I couldn't get into whatever the followup was. I wasn't that thrilled with Herbert's writing even in Dune, but the story and the whole framework carried it for me.

_Rudipherous_, Saturday, 24 April 2010 04:07 (ten years ago) link

one year passes...

rereading these right now

there is such a dropoff in quality between dune and dune messiah

about to start children of dune, remember it being better, hopefully?

dayo, Thursday, 7 July 2011 22:15 (nine years ago) link

he really is just making this stuff up as he goes, huh

dayo, Wednesday, 13 July 2011 12:53 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

I remember liking all the sequels I read (up to God Emperor, which is teh total amaze).

but cripes, that God Emperor cover above is astonishing.

The New Dirty Vicar, Thursday, 1 September 2011 12:27 (nine years ago) link

six months pass...

rereading dune! can't figure out why these are so eminently rereadable to me, but i've read them a million times. even though there's a bunch of stuff that would normally make me not like it, somehow the story makes it all ok.

rayuela, Friday, 30 March 2012 16:46 (eight years ago) link

finally got the dune encyclopedia, what's the best way to read this shit?

the late great, Friday, 30 March 2012 16:51 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

skinless gifs

Doctor Casino, Monday, 16 April 2012 22:09 (eight years ago) link

what game is that from?

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:04 (eight years ago) link

Dune the PC Game. I'm on a Let's Play roll these days.

http://lparchive.org/Dune/

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:06 (eight years ago) link

is that the isometric RTS one, where you pick one of three houses?

i don't recall the screen looking quite like that but its been, oh, about 20 years since i've played

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:08 (eight years ago) link

(that link is blocked for me)

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:08 (eight years ago) link

hahah

Doctor Casino, Monday, 20 July 2020 11:59 (six months ago) link

two months pass...

*spits on table*

hello I am reading Dune for the first time :D

my bff back home in Oz and I started a quar-bookclub for the two of us last weekend & decided to read Dune.

We set the first half of Chapter “Dune” as our first goal. I thought it’d take me a week bc it just seemed to have a draggy vibe as an outsider? Seemed like such a “boys’ own scifi” to me? like ugh politics and worms and ecology biiiiig woop.
but: breaking news is that it’s great, I’m already caught up and dying to read more.
Thrilled by how it clips along, the pacing is much more brisk than I expected. Love how Herbert sets the table plotwise, it’s v impressive. And all the intrigues, larger political intrigues, personal intrigues, so much subterfuge between subsets & individual characters! All that AND I’ve barely even started learning about sandworms or spice so I’m excited.

My only gripe: SO many NAMES of THINGS that i keep forgetting what they are and have to keep going to the glossary to refresh my memory.

Thopter is truly the worst word.

also Bene Gesserit morphs into Rene Russo in my brain

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 02:10 (four months ago) link

so glad you're digging it! lol re: "thopter"

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 02:15 (four months ago) link

they have tried to kill my son!

mookieproof, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 13:59 (four months ago) link

i mentioned this one the dune movie thread, but i avoided reading it for so long bc of the same 'draggy vibe' assumptions, and was pleasantly surprised to discover its a legit page-turner

turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 23 September 2020 14:34 (four months ago) link

Yeah though the first one is best, as I said upthread. Although I did stay hooked through most of the rest.

dow, Wednesday, 23 September 2020 16:01 (four months ago) link

You guys this book is WILD

Finished “Chapter 1” and I am kinda reeling from all the reveals and uber-intrigue - this is much more of a rollercoaster than i expected

Lady Jessica def my fave (I expect disappointment but don’t tell me either way)

second least-fave word after ‘thopter: lasgun

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 2 October 2020 23:21 (three months ago) link

lol

mookieproof, Friday, 2 October 2020 23:35 (three months ago) link

i have also realized why it is so hard to turn the book into a movie- so much of the drama (that i’ve read so far) lays within a character’s internal thoughts & suspicions, which seems like it would be a tall order to convert into visual

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 2 October 2020 23:51 (three months ago) link

have you seen the (first) movie? because you are otm -- there are a lot of awkward voiceovers

mookieproof, Saturday, 3 October 2020 00:20 (three months ago) link

i havent seen any adaptation ever
oh but i will when i am done mark my words

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 3 October 2020 00:50 (three months ago) link

Veg that was always my take too. won't say the particular theme i remember thinking "it'd be hard to get this in a movie, and it's one of the coolest things in this book" about. but yeah 100%. and yet... i'm optimistic about the new one! some elements of the trailer made me think they were aware of this hurdle and that they want to go out of their way to make the thing i'm thinking of workable.

Doctor Casino, Saturday, 3 October 2020 04:52 (three months ago) link

sidebar: i will never forgive Frank Herbert for deciding that a tent needs a “sphincter”

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 3 October 2020 05:11 (three months ago) link

you should blog your reading of this book imo

or if you just keep telling us here that's cool

mookieproof, Saturday, 3 October 2020 05:20 (three months ago) link

xp oh dear wait til you get to the detailed stilsuit description

the late great, Saturday, 3 October 2020 05:48 (three months ago) link

t/s lynch's dune vs cronenberg's dune

the late great, Saturday, 3 October 2020 05:49 (three months ago) link

Series 2 of the TV show Togetherness has a funny subplot of two friends resurrecting their teenage dream of putting on an avant garde puppet show adaption of Dune.

Tsar Bombadil (James Morrison), Friday, 16 October 2020 10:27 (three months ago) link

GHOST RIDE THE WORM 🐛

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:28 (three months ago) link

how far in are you now?

The New Dirty Vicar, Sunday, 25 October 2020 11:18 (three months ago) link

Like all old things, "Dune" is now somewhat controversial but I still love it. It held up strongly on a re-read a couple of years ago.

The New Dirty Vicar, Sunday, 25 October 2020 11:19 (three months ago) link

thopter is a good word (not bad) bcz it sounds like the sound a thopter wd make

mark s, Sunday, 25 October 2020 11:22 (three months ago) link

Out here still waiting for the new Dune Allman

dow, Sunday, 25 October 2020 20:58 (three months ago) link

i am now halfway through the final “chapter” so not much left to go- still no idea how it’s going to end!

harkonnen just got spoilered & the padishah emperor just showed up .. he seems kinda disappointing after all the buildup? idk

oh and princess irulan finally showed up though i was so bored by all her stupid book excepts that i didnt even care when she finally appeared

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 25 October 2020 21:10 (three months ago) link

the only interesting thing princess irulan ever did was provide the name for my tumblr

mark s, Sunday, 25 October 2020 21:37 (three months ago) link

lol

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 25 October 2020 21:46 (three months ago) link

Can't thopt won't thopt keep keepin on sandworms!

dow, Monday, 26 October 2020 01:38 (three months ago) link

aaaaand done

it kinda just ...ends, huh?

enjoyed v much, 10/10 would knife-fight again
though i have to say the sheer level of detail did become overwhelming at times, v hard to store all the knowledge Herbert’s downloading on you at any one time —and a couple of times he assumes knowledge where there is none which i dont mind but it’s like, OH CMON THROW ME A BONE JFC
so i did scurry to the interwebs for a little clarity a few times

but i didnt feel any hokey datedness at all & am still blown away by the depth of the worldbuilding, and even how much really quite modern psychology he drew on for the mental readiness exercises etc

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 02:32 (three months ago) link

🐛🐛🐛🐛🐛🐛🐛🐛

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 02:32 (three months ago) link

Yeah Dune is a hangout book really, whatever the narrative offers is very secondary to getting to live in that mental world for a few hours. I must have read it ten times, and every reread it’s like all the background and extra detail are even more familiar, so I find myself nodding my head and saying yeah, absolutely on the money.

assert (MatthewK), Monday, 26 October 2020 03:16 (three months ago) link

it kinda just ...ends, huh?

you got five books to go!!

the late great, Monday, 26 October 2020 03:31 (three months ago) link

SO many NAMES of THINGS

I remember owning a 700pp battered copy of the The Dune Encyclopedia (1984). A searchable PDF is much more convenient.

Sanpaku, Monday, 26 October 2020 03:44 (three months ago) link

my kindle version had a terminology section but its definitions were more annoying than helpful lol

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 03:46 (three months ago) link

veg your responses are making me want to reread this thing. think i've only ever done it twice, once for a high school class and once maybe around college or a little after. so probably at least 15 years, and some things are still very vivid, but they're mostly locales/vibes and all the Liet-Kynes ecosystem stuff... not a ton of specific scenes, and certainly no dialogue. "hangout book" feels right for that.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 26 October 2020 04:19 (three months ago) link

he becomes a better writer as the series goes along, imo, which is your reward as things become increasingly insane

mookieproof, Monday, 26 October 2020 04:23 (three months ago) link

as i mentioned, my friend & i did this as a bookclub together

in all honestly, nerd feelings aside, *should* we read Dune Messiah?

is it good y/n and if so why
& will i need more dune dictionaries y/n

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 04:36 (three months ago) link

i am still mad pissed that Hetbert killed off Kynes. like, WHY?? he was one of the best characters.
after he got swallowed into the pre-spice bubble or whatever i had a fleeting theory that he was going to become a worm 😂

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 04:38 (three months ago) link

dune messiah is my least favorite of the bunch but i think others rate it more highly. and it cannot be accused of being predictable sequel fare

mookieproof, Monday, 26 October 2020 04:54 (three months ago) link

My recent re-read of Dune Messiah made me not want to continue the series. Perhaps I should give Children a chance.

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Monday, 26 October 2020 04:55 (three months ago) link

I don't like it much either, it's the comedown of politics and consequences after the rush of the first one. But mookieproof otm, and its unpredictability does a good job of setting up bigger and more interesting things down the track. At least it's short!

assert (MatthewK), Monday, 26 October 2020 05:29 (three months ago) link

hmm

well we will decide in a week or two - it’s either this or LOTR (which we have both read but not in a VERY long time)

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 05:49 (three months ago) link

I remember liking Dune Messiah and have it on my re-read pile but it was a long long long time since I read it.

The New Dirty Vicar, Monday, 26 October 2020 09:18 (three months ago) link

i like DM too -- it's deliberately very small-scale tho, macchiavellian court politics

mark s, Monday, 26 October 2020 10:19 (three months ago) link

also it had my favourite space-opera style cover:

https://www.sffworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/dunemessiah.jpg

mark s, Monday, 26 October 2020 10:20 (three months ago) link

It has the weird quality of being this local neighborhood intrigue, while presumably there's this vague but massive cosmic genocide happening offstage. It all felt incongruous, like the focus didn't make sense.

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Monday, 26 October 2020 13:46 (three months ago) link

Maybe check this, if more curious than worried about possible spoilers (on Rolling Speculative, I saw teen Paul as struggling w identity and fate like his 60-born peer and soul mate Peter Parker Spiderman):

Just finished Dune, read it for the first time. Honestly....I really enjoyed reading this, but the ending seemed kind of dud. Everything seemed to wrap up really quickly without too terribly much struggle. And Paul strikes me as kind of a dick. Will reading Children of Dune make me happier?

― Dominique, Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:25 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Dune Messiah is the second, Children is third, incl. in quality, though it has its strong sections/pages. But If you don't already sympathize with Paul's struggles vs. his fucked-with nature and destiny, go no further (if you do, God Emperor mostly smells like ass, Heretics of Dune is yer Return To Form, but not enough to send me in a timely fashion to Chapterhouse: Dune, the last Dune by series creator Frank Herbert. But I'll get there someday, and could see how the follow-ups written and co-written by his son might work okay as space opera, minus any overload of philosophical etc. elements.

― dow, Thursday, September 22, 2016 1:37 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

thanks -- yeah, most of the time I rooted for him, but some of the time it was clear he was just as capable of being corrupted by power as anyone else. He struggled with it, but also took advantage of his power at times (and also seemed to have an inability to actually deal with the bad stuff that happened to him, other than just shutting it out completely). I guess that's the point? I've also read that in further books, characters that were once "villains" can become more sympathetic.

― Dominique, Thursday, September 22, 2016 3:23 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes, they can---they're all crazy, fucked-with and fucking with, in the cultural midst of cultural imperatives---even the God Emperor means to gradually implode the Order of Things by advancing it, teaching "Don't Follow Leaders, Watch The Parking Meters", but sure does take him a long time, and even though as a comic premise it's funny that he likes torture his followers with huge clouds of philosophical bullshit---like he's Mr. Natural, and everbody else, incl. loyal readers, is Flakey Foont, or Dudley Moore in "Bedazzled"---this isn't as good. But as one of the fucked-with Children of Dune he's more sympathetic. And I'd like to know just how the Bene Gesserit got that way, but anyway they do indeed try to save the day in Heretics--maybe trying too hard in Chapterhouse, judging by sneak peaks, but that tends to the Dune way (incl. that of its creator) after all.

― dow, Thursday, September 22, 2016 4:21 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

in the culturalmidst, I meant

― dow, Thursday, September 22, 2016

dow, Monday, 26 October 2020 17:46 (three months ago) link

Strikethrough of that extra "cultural" didn't make it into paste. Local library also has early The Ecology of Dune, come to think of it.

dow, Monday, 26 October 2020 17:50 (three months ago) link

yeah i am not as big on Douchelord Paul now that he is really leaning into it all

he kinda went back and forth through the book and I appreciated the few moments when Jessica was able to check him

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 October 2020 17:57 (three months ago) link

Welll---he earns his very own (better not say more, but he does)

dow, Monday, 26 October 2020 18:05 (three months ago) link

one month passes...

i reread dune messiah for the first tme in probably 30 years if not more

there's more of it that i don't follow than i remember lol (the complex motivations that wd be delivered in whispered voice-overs if david lunch was filming it)

i still like its sense of small-scale intimate corrupt court biz and its semi-pointless gaudiness (the conspirators somehow remind me of an aladdin pantomime)

mark s, Tuesday, 1 December 2020 23:02 (one month ago) link


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