DUNE: c/d

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i've read them many many times.

i understand the series up to the fourth book.

my comprehension gets rather fuzzy at the fifth.

i've been rereading the sixth in bits and pieces to try to get it.

TOTALLY CLASSIC.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

also, if possible:

discuss possible links between herbert's mania for unconstrained, natural environmental development with his running story about "The Tyrant" with the strong authorial intervention at each step of the way with his seeming inability to settle on an overarching theme for the story (i mean, he seems to revise the whole continuity in every book! first the tyrant hates the bene gesserit - then all of a sudden they're the only hope in the universe - then they're subsumed into the matres?? and that was the master plan??)

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Dune was my absolute favorite book when I was a major sci-fi fan. I read the first 6 - up to Chapterhouse. I'm not sure if any came out after that. I even had (still have, somewhere, in storage, I hope) the Dune Encyclopedia which purports to be an actual reference work published within the Dune milieu. However, it's been years since I've read any of them, and I couldn't really claim to understand them very well. Actually, the one I remember being the most baffled by was Children of Dune. I can't even remember what happens in that one.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:13 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

alia is possessed by baron harkonnen
paul muad'dib's children grow up a little bit
jessica returns to the bene gesserit
she decides leto ii is an abomination
because alia has tricked her
alia turns princess irulan against leto ii
they manage to have leto ii tossed into the desert
the duncan idaho ghola is captured by irulan's relatives
leto ii is captured by superstitious wild fremen
duncan idaho turns irulan's relative into a mentat
thus ensuring his own survival
he returns home and tricks stilgar into killing him
because he needs stilgar to flee into the desert
so that alia/irulan's position is weakened
leto ii meets paul muad'dib who is now a mad prophet
leto ii turns into a sandworm
leto ii returns to town with his father
who preaches messianic fascism to the people
alia's guards kill paul muad'dib
leto ii reveals that he is now part sandworm
and that the empire will worship him
because he is strong and cruel
alia realizes all is lost and commits suicide
leto ii becomes emperor
his sister marries irulan's relative
so now leto controls the old houses, too
happy ending.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:36 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

how much do you want for the dune encyclopedia, man?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i think the point of "children of dune" was something like struggle > comfort, and that the 2nd generation (born into comfort) will naturally be attracted to struggle (because it's the evolutionary force of the universe)

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I don't think I could part with the Encyclopedia. I'm not even still sure I have it. If I do, it's in someone's garage in California, whereas I am in NYC - and it would be difficult to access. I was somewhat surprised to see that they're going for as much as $75 on Ebay though. I remember reading somewhere that the Herbert estate has put the kibosh on reprints of it, since it conflicts in some particulars with the later Dune novels, so I guess that explains the scarcity.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 7 January 2004 22:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

You guys didn't understand them? As weird as they are, they're pretty straightforward, plot-wise, at least on their own terms. Once you wrap your head round the idea of people turning into worms (and mroe importantly, the worms' life cycle) then you're well away.

As for story arcs - I didn't think there NEEDED to be one. One of the most attractive points of the books is the way that people swap from side to side - you root for someone that you previously hated.

Johnney B (Johnney B), Sunday, 11 January 2004 17:40 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

johnney - what is the point of "chapterhouse: dune", then? actually, wait, let's go backwards. what is the significance of the discovery of leto's cache of records in "heretics of dune"? i understand that the bene gesserit missionaria was immeasurably strengthened by discovering leto's blueprints for the imperium-wide religious training he imposed on his subjects but the book is maddeningly vague on the details. furthermore i have little to no understanding of how that ties into sheeana. ok she can control the worms but does that necessarily mean she is the fulfillment of leto's missionaria? just because you have stigmata doesn't mean you get to be pope!

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:54 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

and besides, isn't the grander point of the last two books the way the bene gesserit gradually rejects the overt manipulation of humanity (genetic grooming, the missionaria, etc.) in favor of a more "natural" or dependent or benevolent relationship akin to that between the fremen and their desert?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

four years pass...

Best baddies ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7DSvMKzMj4

Bodrick III, Saturday, 1 March 2008 22:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

eleven months pass...

I am going to an SF book club tonight, where the book is DUNE.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 10 February 2009 13:20 (nine years ago) Permalink

I read the first one long ago and man, that was way more than enough.

Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 14:36 (nine years ago) Permalink

Dune the first one = Classic.

Probably one of my top 5 SF novels - loved how the setting was based around this hard environmental science (which in retrospect doesn't make sense anyway), but then it kind of deliberately tried to piss off all the physics nerds by inserting all this great psychic/telepathy stuff into the narrative. "Screw realistic FTL travel, let's just stick this alien in a tank, feed it hallucinogenic drugs, and it can bend us through space and time." Also loved the idea of the Mentats - "we don't trust AI so we will train humans to be computers instead."

It is a) one of the few canonical SF novels that really stands up, b) seems to pave the way for New Wave in the 1960's and simultaneously make a break with SF as it was in the 40's and 50's (although admittedly this is pure speculation on my part as it was many decades before my birth - contemporary fans and writers may have felt differently).

The rest of the series seemed like a dud to me though - I've read several of the sequels multiple times and really I can't remember anything much about them, except the impression that Frank Herbert really didn't want to write them (maybe that is wishful thinking).

ears are wounds, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 15:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

first few posts on here are great

haven't read dune since i was 12, but

"seems to pave the way for New Wave in the 1960s": it came out in '65! although bits of it were being serialised, somewhere, before then. actually, in 'trillion year spree' or 'billion year spree' or whatever its called uneasy New Wave figure b. aldiss admiringly quotes bits of dune at length in order to say: "now, see, this, this is better than all those stories with typographical fol-de-rol, this is what REAL modern sf looked like"

thomp, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:51 (nine years ago) Permalink

i fucking LOVE dune

max, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

Herbert named one of his characters "Pieter de Vries", which is one letter away from the name of the 20th century comic novelist Peter de Vries. It's a surreal touch. I like to imagine Herbert thinking "let 'em figure that one out."

alimosina, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:20 (nine years ago) Permalink

It was a nod to skot.

lemmy tristano (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 12 February 2009 00:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

it came out in '65!

For some reason I thought it was like 1960-61. But nevertheless Wikipedia dates the beginning of the New Wave movement to 1964 (which is when Michael Moorcock became editor of New Worlds) and the peak as 1971, so it is certainly contemporaneous and definitely could have been an influence on later New Wave writers. Dangerous Visions is debatably part of the New Wave stuff (depends if we just see it as a British phenomenon), but it is often cited as the definitive American New Wave anthology and that came out after Dune in 1967.

ears are wounds, Thursday, 12 February 2009 10:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

Given that no one seems to really like the sequels (apart from me, obv.), and The White Plague is ye liveliest awfulnesse, did Frank Herbert write anything else any good? Or was he a one book writer?

The Real Dirty Vicar, Saturday, 14 February 2009 13:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

he wrote this hilarious little dirty limerick on a bathroom wall once

latebloomer, Monday, 16 February 2009 03:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

i've heard The Whipping Star is good

goole, Monday, 16 February 2009 04:28 (nine years ago) Permalink

Whipping Star is my favorite Herbert.

alimosina, Monday, 16 February 2009 22:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

I only read the first 3 or so when I was about 20. I loved them & want to read them again, but the only way I can read everything I want to read, keep up my internet addiction, walk the dog, draw, eat, sleep, keep husband, etc, is to shunt several Beth Parkers off to parallel universes, then reunite them periodically into one super Beth Parker, rinse, repeat.

After all, failing to bathe, change clothes or clean house only buys you so much time.

Beth Parker, Friday, 6 March 2009 14:53 (nine years ago) Permalink

You need a spice eating monster to bend you some extra time.

I should go back and read Dune again as I remember loving it then devouring the sequels - though they never quite lived up to the first one.

the innermost wee guy (onimo), Friday, 6 March 2009 16:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

You need a spice eating monster to bend you some extra time.

Failing that, retirement, at least by the time I hit 80. Disability?

Beth Parker, Saturday, 7 March 2009 00:05 (nine years ago) Permalink

seven months pass...

reading the first one again 4 the first time since i was like 12 or 13 ... so so dope

i got nothin (deej), Tuesday, 20 October 2009 08:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

Dune is a classic, even outside of its narrow genre.

Has anyone read the sequels written by Frank Herbert's son and a co-author? I assume they're terrible. (TBH, I thought the last book or two in the series by Frank Herbert were borderline-terrible, e.g., God Emperor of Dune).

Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 20 October 2009 10:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

Yeah they're awful, the old man and woman at the end of Chapterhouse are not intelligent face dancers but AI survivors from the butlerian jihad

Also Heretics and Chapterhouse are awesome novels but there are inexplicable elements in them that don't seem to blend well with the earlier stories but perhaps that's because i never finished reading God Emperor which is quite boring

Obamacare Death Panel for Cutie (wssp), Thursday, 22 October 2009 20:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

Yeah, IIRC, nothing happens in God Emperor. Lotsa "thinking" and "plotting."

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 22 October 2009 20:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Guild Navigators are REAL!!!
http://cache.boston.com/universal/bigpicture/13_200716.jpg

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:24 (nine years ago) Permalink

(My nerdiest post ever? No, it's probably something to do with Starfleet Battles)

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

ilx is very booknerd today.

thomp, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 19:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/259/godemp.jpg

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 21:52 (nine years ago) Permalink

Hmm, did a search and thought this was an ILE thread...

Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 1 December 2009 22:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

Hey so, is there really any reward in reading past the first one? I've read it maybe three times over the last, let's say 10-12 years...I like a lot of the Big Ideas (mainly the whole notion of a character realizing he is the Prophesied Chosen One and being really freaked out about it), but the characters/plot sort of ooze together in the last third or so and I've just never been tempted by the sequels - they feel like cash-ins, but are they?

Doctor Casino, Friday, 4 December 2009 10:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

four months pass...

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

An awesome seriously in-depth looks at the Origins of the Book.

WTF cat with unfitting music (kingfish), Friday, 23 April 2010 19:22 (eight years ago) Permalink

really loved the first one and the fourth (god emperor of dune). The Brian Herbert ones are uniformly terrible.

toastmodernist, Friday, 23 April 2010 23:54 (eight years ago) Permalink

Before I read it, Dune always had a certain mystique to me. That was the result of some combination of the cover, the fact that my older sister had a copy of it and spoke reverently of it, and my failed attempt to read it when I was too young. (I really couldn't handle long-playing novels until I was in 7th, maybe 8th grade, and still didn't read many then.) When I finally read it many years later, I definitely enjoyed it, but I couldn't get into whatever the followup was. I wasn't that thrilled with Herbert's writing even in Dune, but the story and the whole framework carried it for me.

_Rudipherous_, Saturday, 24 April 2010 04:07 (eight years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

rereading these right now

there is such a dropoff in quality between dune and dune messiah

about to start children of dune, remember it being better, hopefully?

dayo, Thursday, 7 July 2011 22:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

he really is just making this stuff up as he goes, huh

dayo, Wednesday, 13 July 2011 12:53 (seven years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

I remember liking all the sequels I read (up to God Emperor, which is teh total amaze).

but cripes, that God Emperor cover above is astonishing.

The New Dirty Vicar, Thursday, 1 September 2011 12:27 (seven years ago) Permalink

six months pass...

rereading dune! can't figure out why these are so eminently rereadable to me, but i've read them a million times. even though there's a bunch of stuff that would normally make me not like it, somehow the story makes it all ok.

rayuela, Friday, 30 March 2012 16:46 (six years ago) Permalink

finally got the dune encyclopedia, what's the best way to read this shit?

the late great, Friday, 30 March 2012 16:51 (six years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

skinless gifs

Doctor Casino, Monday, 16 April 2012 22:09 (six years ago) Permalink

what game is that from?

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:04 (six years ago) Permalink

Dune the PC Game. I'm on a Let's Play roll these days.

http://lparchive.org/Dune/

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:06 (six years ago) Permalink

is that the isometric RTS one, where you pick one of three houses?

i don't recall the screen looking quite like that but its been, oh, about 20 years since i've played

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:08 (six years ago) Permalink

(that link is blocked for me)

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:08 (six years ago) Permalink

I think you're thinking of Dune 2, which was a strategy game. The first is an adventure game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JROGmTAnS-g

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:45 (six years ago) Permalink

that dune gif is offtm because a sandworm would have disposed of the body long before it could decompose

dayo, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 17:04 (six years ago) Permalink

dune 2 was sweet as hell

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 17:18 (six years ago) Permalink

never played dune 1, will dosbox

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 17:18 (six years ago) Permalink

oh wow i just looked at the top of the thread - didn't remember i had started it!

the late great, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 17:22 (six years ago) Permalink

it's nice to read some people talking about how they like the Dune sequels. So I am not alone in the world. But I never finished Heretics or started Chapterhouse.

I am very envious of anyone who has that Dune Encyclopedia. I remember marvelling at it in shops.

The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:21 (six years ago) Permalink

they have some good parts but as a whole they are not that great, honestly

my dune encyclopedia is a PDF ;_;

the late great, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:26 (six years ago) Permalink

I take it that all the prequels etc. by Norbert Herbert are complete nonsense?

The New Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:40 (six years ago) Permalink

depends how much you like things like licensed star wars or star trek novels

but yeah IMO utter shite

the late great, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:50 (six years ago) Permalink

i mean i think like SW or ST novels they have little in the way of the spark of creativity that made the originals great and they are basically just boilerplate sci-fi stuff w a thin layer of in-universe flavor on top

the late great, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:52 (six years ago) Permalink

I never knew about the dune encyclopedia! Any good?

I plowed thru the first 3 books in my reread. Books 2 and 3 are much worse than I remember, but something abt this series requires that once I start reading, I have to read it through its entirety... I recall the last two being a return to the quality of book 1 so am curious to see how I feel about it this time around.

rayuela, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:53 (six years ago) Permalink

relieved to be finished with god emperor of dune so i no longer have to stand around in the subway trying to hid the crazy looking cover...

rayuela, Thursday, 26 April 2012 20:30 (six years ago) Permalink

three years pass...

is it weird that I really love Herbert's prose in Dune? feel like a lot of people arent into it but i love it, his descriptions of topography feel like action even when its purely descriptive

supreme problematics (D-40), Tuesday, 16 June 2015 08:49 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, "planetary romance, " like it says on the Science Fiction Encyclopedia site: not that much science, but what there is (re early use of ecological themes in SF, anyway) enhances the power of the setting, which is also a character, in effect.
Really enjoyed the first two books all through, rooting for the rebellious children of Destiny, but the struggles of the main character in Children of Dune, trying to make (a new) sense of his future(s) get so torturous and sometimes inchoate--appropriately so, but still it got to be too much for me: like, how much of this is to be sympathized with, and waited out, 'til we get to the cool plot twists again---and they do come!--but also, wondering how much we're supposed to take as stunning insights, rather than characters grasping at straws. (Also, some of the secondary and tertiary characters can make pretty stupid moves).
My recent thoughts on God Emperor of Dune, and what might lie ahead, are general impressions, though still may possibly be considered spoilery:
ThReads Must Roll: the new, improved rolling fantasy, science fiction, speculative fiction &c. thread

dow, Tuesday, 16 June 2015 19:37 (three years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

just finished Dune, read it for the first time. Honestly....I really enjoyed reading this, but the ending seemed kind of dud. Everything seemed to wrap up really quickly without too terribly much struggle. And Paul strikes me as kind of a dick. Will reading Children of Dune make me happier?

Dominique, Thursday, 22 September 2016 17:25 (two years ago) Permalink

Dune Messiah is the second,Children is third, incl. in quality, though it has its strong sections/pages. But If you don't already sympathize with Paul's struggles vs. his fucked-with nature and destiny, go no further (if you do, God Emperor mostly smells like ass, Heretics of Dune is yer Return To Form, but not enough to send me in a timely fashion to Chapterhouse: Dune, the last Dune by series creator Frank Herbert. But I'll get there someday, and could see how the follow-ups written and co-written by his son might work okay as space opera, minus any overload of philosophical etc. elements.

dow, Thursday, 22 September 2016 18:37 (two years ago) Permalink

thanks -- yeah, most of the time I rooted for him, but some of the time it was clear he was just as capable of being corrupted by power as anyone else. He struggled with it, but also took advantage of his power at times (and also seemed to have an inability to actually deal with the bad stuff that happened to him, other than just shutting it out completely). I guess that's the point? I've also read that in further books, characters that were once "villains" can become more sympathetic.

Dominique, Thursday, 22 September 2016 20:23 (two years ago) Permalink

Yes, they can---they're all crazy, fucked-with and fucking with, in the cultural midst of cultural imperatives---even the God Emperor means to gradually implode the Order of Things by advancing it, teaching "Don't Follow Leaders, Watch The Parking Meters", but sure does take him a long time, and even though as a comic premise it's funny that he likes torture his followers with huge clouds of philosophical bullshit---like he's Mr. Natural, and everbody else, incl. loyal readers, is Flakey Foont, or Dudley Moore in "Bedazzled"---this isn't as good. But as one of the fucked-with Children of Dune he's more sympathetic. And I'd like to know just how the Bene Gesserit got that way, but anyway they do indeed try to save the day in Heretics--maybe trying too hard in Chapterhouse, judging by sneak peaks, but that tends to the Dune way (incl. that of its creator) after all.

dow, Thursday, 22 September 2016 21:21 (two years ago) Permalink

in the culturalmidst, I meant

dow, Thursday, 22 September 2016 21:23 (two years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

THE ONLY GOOD ONLINE FANDOM LEFT IS DUNE

https://theoutline.com/post/5333/dune-revival-2018-david-lynch?zd=2&zi=bljps3pa

mookieproof, Saturday, 14 July 2018 20:18 (five months ago) Permalink

Loving the critical reassessment of the Lynch film

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Saturday, 14 July 2018 20:20 (five months ago) Permalink

well, it's nowhere near as shit as the book

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 14 July 2018 20:27 (five months ago) Permalink

I read the series way back in the 80s, but could barely recall it. Re-read the first book recently and was surprised how much I still liked it. Also re-read Dune Messiah, and that book is an utter mess. May still continue on, but I don't have high hopes for the rest.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Saturday, 14 July 2018 22:44 (five months ago) Permalink

hadn't realized my fucked-up library sale copy is a first edition

difficult listening hour, Saturday, 14 July 2018 23:50 (five months ago) Permalink

dune messiah is bad. heretics/chapterhouse are pretty good tho

mookieproof, Sunday, 15 July 2018 04:09 (five months ago) Permalink

I read them all in middle/high school but I stopped in the early/middle of Chapterhouse when the (spoilers) Literal Jews In Space showed up

devops mom (silby), Sunday, 15 July 2018 04:12 (five months ago) Permalink


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