The Goddamn Manful Hemingway Thread

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Been reading. Sun Also Rises, couple of the letters. Boy could write.

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Friday, 3 September 2004 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

Eh... so what do you want to talk about?

SRH (Skrik), Saturday, 4 September 2004 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I haven't read Hemingway in years. He's a little too Hemingwayesque at times, don't you think?

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 4 September 2004 17:31 (sixteen years ago) link


Fred (Fred), Saturday, 4 September 2004 18:20 (sixteen years ago) link


Fred (Fred), Saturday, 4 September 2004 18:26 (sixteen years ago) link

The only Hemingway I really enjoyed was Old Man and the Sea, probably because his many character doesn't have to interact much with other characters (in my opinion, Hemingway's weakness). This book was beautifully written.

Karmon, Saturday, 11 September 2004 16:09 (sixteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
you might enjoy some of the short stories then? maybe something like the big hearted river ones...

btw, that's something i dont consider his weakness. hills like white elephants and Three Day Blows are two of my favorites and they're pretty much all interaction.

AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 28 September 2004 17:24 (sixteen years ago) link

ten months pass...
so like why didn't this get more replies?

i'll have something to say, in a few days.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 28 July 2005 18:58 (sixteen years ago) link

so like why didn't this get more replies?

My sense is he's faded into the background and has a lot fewer readers these days. Maybe because Hemingway suffered so much from being widely imitated that his stylistic strengthes all became cliches, while his weaknesses were all his own.

Among other things, femininist critics lit into him in the 1970s like wolves on fresh meat and no one much bothered to defend him, because they were mostly tired of him by then.

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 28 July 2005 19:37 (sixteen years ago) link

in my exp. he's still namechecked by every non-reader reader, tho, as well as by practically every writer ever.

i'm reading the sun also rises, am about halfway thru it, and find his style mostly a joke (but a funny one).

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 28 July 2005 19:48 (sixteen years ago) link

His style is harder to take when you've read 101 imitations of it.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 29 July 2005 03:26 (sixteen years ago) link

when i was taking writing courses he seemed to at least get his nods.

'hills like white elephants' um, 'pwns'

Josh (Josh), Friday, 29 July 2005 06:01 (sixteen years ago) link

I've always loved Hemingway, but I can understand how it's difficult to read if you've read a lot of imitations. For Whom the Bell Tolls is one of my desert island novels. The Sun Also Rises is pretty good, but I think he really hit his stride with A Farewell to Arms.

My wife and all her English-major girlfriends take the feminist side, which I can kinda see. I mean, it's not like Catherine Barkley or For Whom's Maria are anything other than supporting characters. I can't say it really bothers me, though. By the same token, I don't read Woolf for strong, sympathetic male characters.

jedidiah (jedidiah), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:03 (sixteen years ago) link

i don't think i've read a lot of imitiations. it's just a grating style.

i'm curious to see his treatment of brett in SARs. [waitwait don't tell me]

John (jdahlem), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:16 (sixteen years ago) link

did anyone hear the interview with John McCain, where he said he wasn't going to run for president (yeah right) and said he thought For Whom the Bell Tolls was The great American novel, and how Robert Jordan was his main inspiration in surviving the Hanoi Hilton. So there you go. I thought that book was where he started to run out of ideas. I remember loving the first two novels, and reread a couple of stories lately, which still seemed great, mostly because of their style (although it does seem a bit mannered)

Donald, Friday, 29 July 2005 15:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I had to "do" "Hills Like White Elephants" four times in various high school and college classes. I'm surprised I don't have the whole damn thing memorized. "The hills of the valley of the Ebro were long and white and..."

Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 29 July 2005 17:09 (sixteen years ago) link

ha, i always forget that the rest of the story exists; i just remember the dialogue w/ the cervezas.

admiral stockdale survived as a pow by thinking abt epictetus!

Josh (Josh), Friday, 29 July 2005 18:16 (sixteen years ago) link

five months pass...
I just finished "For Whom the Bell Tolls." I skipped a few of the Robert Jordan/Maria lying-in-the-sleeping-bag-conversations, which I found almost totally vacant of any interest after the first couple of times around. Otherwise -- what a book. Really exciting. My heart was pounding last night after I'd finished it and turned off the light.

It's funny that McCain should say that, since Robert Jordan (I love that one stylistic tic -- one forgets it after a few pages, but it has its effect. What effect is it, exactly, though? Dashiell Hammett does the same thing in The Glass Key, I believe.) -- since Robert Jordan, it's clear, would prefer death by firefight or his own hand to ever being held prisoner.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 20 January 2006 23:42 (fifteen years ago) link

Hills Like White Hyperlinks. I really remember it as "Ebro", not "Ebrol", and Wiki says there's a Ebro River in Spain, so, take this page with a grain of salt.

Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 21 January 2006 00:07 (fifteen years ago) link

which tic is that, tracer? (i have never read 'for whom the bell tolls'.)

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 21 January 2006 05:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Saying "Robert Jordan" every single time he mentions his name.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 21 January 2006 06:52 (fifteen years ago) link

I didn't mind Maria at all, except that she was sort of boring. But I imagine that would be exactly what somebody like Robert Jordan would want in a situation like the one described in the book. Coltish, bashful, demanding only in flattering ways. Who wouldn't fall in love, in that situation?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 21 January 2006 06:58 (fifteen years ago) link

four months pass...
[spam like white elephants]

spamingway, Sunday, 4 June 2006 05:20 (fifteen years ago) link

I was a young teen when Hemingway killed himself. He was my hero and I felt betrayed. I never read him again. All these years and the betrayal is still fresh.

jerry myers, Sunday, 4 June 2006 08:53 (fifteen years ago) link

two years pass...

schlump, Monday, 23 February 2009 15:28 (twelve years ago) link

ooops, credit:

schlump, Monday, 23 February 2009 15:29 (twelve years ago) link

I recognize he's a boring choice but The Sun Also Rises meant a lot to me a few years back.

its gotta be HOOSy para steen (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 23 February 2009 17:28 (twelve years ago) link

I love For Whom the Bell Tolls and the Old Man and the Sea but I haven't read anything else by Hemmingway. Tried the Sun Also Rises once but I found the character's too annoying and Jake's impotence is kinda, I dunno, frustrating to read, or something. Although I've always had a thing were I find afflicted protagonists hard to stomach, e.g. loved Crime and Punishment but it was a bit of a slog for me to be following mad bastard Raskolnikov through the whole thing.

Bone Thugs-N-Harmony ft Phil Collins (jim), Monday, 23 February 2009 17:36 (twelve years ago) link

also Hemingway = classic, Hemingway's influence = at least slightly dud.

Bone Thugs-N-Harmony ft Phil Collins (jim), Monday, 23 February 2009 17:37 (twelve years ago) link

braggin 09 but: he was my grandmothers godfather

max, Monday, 23 February 2009 17:40 (twelve years ago) link

sun also rises in the reread every year category for me

this is the meme of evan and 4chan (Lamp), Monday, 23 February 2009 17:48 (twelve years ago) link

The short stories are where it is for me.

I also like, not the goddam manful Hemingway but, to follow Burroughs, the uncanny Hemingway who could sense the approach of death, as at the end of "Snows of Kilimanjaro" and in real life it seems.

alimosina, Monday, 23 February 2009 18:38 (twelve years ago) link

His style really wearies me, but I do enjoy some of his short stories. The Sun Also Rises I also quite enjoyed, though the way the whole impotence thing was handled was unintentionally hilarious.

James Morrison, Monday, 23 February 2009 22:19 (twelve years ago) link

sun also rises wasn't as absorbing as i wanted it to be, though i still found it a fairly quick and enjoyable read. i'll get to the other novels before long.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 26 February 2009 05:29 (twelve years ago) link

it's funny that people complain about his female characters being thinly sketched and caricatured -- i think his male characters are like that too! i don't think characterization was his strong point.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 26 February 2009 05:30 (twelve years ago) link

idk i mean i think the dudes who inherited the macho ticker tape mantel got really good at deft hypersubtle characterization

its gotta be HOOSy para steen (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 26 February 2009 06:02 (twelve years ago) link

I read Sun Also Rises last month for the first time and I liked it, but not the way I loved some of his other stuff. My favourites are Moveable Feast, Death in the Afternoon and some of the Nick Adams stories, but I haven't read a lot more than that, I have to admit. At his best I find his style so lovely, just very hypnotic and calming.

franny glass, Thursday, 26 February 2009 17:22 (twelve years ago) link

A Farewell To Arms is unbelievable. I remember not liking it when I read it becaues it was so unconventional and spontaneously tragic. Nowadays that's what I like most about it.
I read Green Hills of Africa because it was name-dropped in On The Road ("It's Hemingway's best"). It was good. I mean, the first half is awesome; Hemingway gets loaded, starts talking shit about literature, kills a rhinoceros(!). The second half is really hunting-heavy though and kind of a slog. That said I highly recommend it. This is going to sound lame but it was really relaxing.

samosa gibreel, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 00:27 (twelve years ago) link

He's a short story writer with novelistic ambitions, and as such only hit it twice: The Sun Also Rises and (barely) A Farewell to Arms. I'm really fond of the posthumous The Garden of Eden, in which he exposes the polymorphous perversity that served as subtext for so many years.

The Screaming Lobster of Challops (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 3 March 2009 00:31 (twelve years ago) link

Papa's got a brand new dress.

James Morrison, Tuesday, 3 March 2009 00:58 (twelve years ago) link

one year passes...


Jermaine Jenason (darraghmac), Friday, 26 March 2010 14:35 (eleven years ago) link

"one book by me about the sea"

Mr. Que, Friday, 26 March 2010 14:35 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

I was a young teen when Hemingway killed himself. He was my hero and I felt betrayed. I never read him again. All these years and the betrayal is still fresh.

― jerry myers, Sunday, 4 June 2006 08:53 (5 years ago)

Tears Henry shed for poor old Hemingway,
Hemingway in despair, Hemingway at the end,
the end of Hemingway,
tears in a diningroom in Indiana
and that was years ago, before his marriage say,
God to him no worse luck send.

Save us from shotguns & fathers' suicides.
It all depends on who you're the father
if you want to kill yourself --
a bad example, murder of oneself,
the final death, in a paroxysm, of love
for which good mercy hides?

A girl at the door: 'A few coppers pray'
But to return, to return to Hemingway
that cruel & gifted man.
Mercy! my father; do not pull the trigger
or all my life I'll suffer from your anger
killing what you began.

-- Berryman, D.S. #235

alimosina, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 18:51 (ten years ago) link

one year passes...

i'm nearing the end of For Whom the Bell Tolls (having read the big collection of his short stories repeatedly in high school, and Old Man and the Sea, and that's it, otherwise), and I guess it's long fallen out of fashion to love him, but I do. There's a departure near the end of FWtBT, starting with "Then after your father had shot himself with this pistol, and you'd come home from school", and continuing on a paragraph later with a section about taking that pistol and riding a horse out to a lake that was supposedly 800 feet deep and dropping it in, watching it sink. Just killed me. Probably from having a few friends who had killed themselves, long ago, + 3/4 fifth of Maker's Mark, but i just hate how you can no longer be like "FUCK YEAH HEMINGWAY" anymore, you're supposed to couch it in reservations

you're all going to hello (Z S), Sunday, 29 July 2012 03:45 (nine years ago) link

Yes yes, the PC police can be so wearying.

It's odd coming to him as a comics fan, as one of his major impacts there has been Dave Sim's loving encomium over about a year, featuring Ham Ernestway and his shrewish wife Mary, who eventually pushes him towards suicide. On the one hand he's tainted by association with Sim during the height of his misogyny, on the other it's assumed that the caricature has surely exaggerated him. And then it hasn't.

Is this the longest all-boys thread on ILB / on ILX? Certainly if you'd asked me what the longest all-boys thread on ILB was, I would have come up with Hemingway after a while.

Regarding his style: there's a parody in a 1932 New Yorker, bearing the subtitle "(With the usual apologies to Ernest Hemingway, who must be pretty sick of this sort of thing)"

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 29 July 2012 11:27 (nine years ago) link

I am a girl and I adore Hemingway. His real life and goddam manfulness doesn't change the fact that I love the sentences he wrote. Reading him is a weirdly beautiful experience for me.

Sun Also Rises is my least favourite, although I haven't read everything or even most of his stuff. I read Farewell to Arms earlier this year, it was pretty devastating. The short stories were my first intro to him, and might be my favourite.

franny glass, Tuesday, 31 July 2012 02:15 (nine years ago) link

nine months pass...

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Monday, 27 May 2013 00:06 (eight years ago) link

thought thread title said mariel hemingway, was confused and excited that she would have her own thread

turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 27 May 2013 00:12 (eight years ago) link

Bibliography (edit)

Mariel Hemingway is the author of:
Hemingway, Mariel (2002). Finding My Balance: A Memoir (1st ed.). Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0-7432-3807-9.
Hemingway, Mariel (2006). Mariel Hemingway's Healthy Living from the Inside Out: Every Woman's Guide to Real Beauty, Renewed Energy, and a Radiant Life (1st ed.). HarperOne. ISBN 978-0-06-089039-1.
Hemingway, Mariel (2009). MARIEL'S KITCHEN Simple Ingredients for a Delicious and Satisfying Life (1st ed.). HarperOne. ISBN 978-0-06-164987-5.

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Monday, 27 May 2013 13:42 (eight years ago) link

i mean we could try i guess

the bitcoin comic (thomp), Monday, 27 May 2013 13:42 (eight years ago) link

I like that list of books in the Esquire article -- it's not the same as the earlier handwritten list. I wonder if Mariel has read them all.

Hemingway sounds nasty and condescending in his account of his conversations with Samuelson, which gives the Olympian writing advice an undertone that would be funny if the effect were intentional. I can't quite read it that way.

Brad C., Monday, 27 May 2013 15:47 (eight years ago) link

this 22-year-old showed up on his porch and asked to be taught how to write and hadn't even read war and peace; i think he behaved extremely well for ernest hemingway.

the white queen and her caustic judgments (difficult listening hour), Monday, 27 May 2013 15:54 (eight years ago) link

Hemingway comes across as a nicer guy in Samuelson's account of their meeting than he does in the Esquire piece.

Brad C., Monday, 27 May 2013 16:12 (eight years ago) link

I'm trying hard to recall reading The Old Man and the Sea more than 40 years ago. My memory tells me it was so stripped down and simplified that a re-reading might look like a self-parody or it might look like the apotheosis of the style Hemingway was striving for all his life. From this distance I can't say. I do recall it having gravitas far beyond what I normally read in my teens. I suspect it was a great book in its way. I guess it wouldn't take me long to find out if that's true.

Aimless, Monday, 27 May 2013 17:11 (eight years ago) link

Another one who thought it was the granddaughter's thread for a second.

Oulipo Traces (on a Cigarette) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 27 May 2013 18:04 (eight years ago) link

seven years pass...

Anyone gonna watch the Ken Burns series?

A review:

Revisiting his writing, I remembered it was its movement that touched me—how he gets characters from one part of the room to another. Easier said than done, and one of the ways in which he separated himself from Stein. He replaced thinking with action—which Stein considered an affront to modernism. “Gertrude Stein and Sherwood Anderson are very funny on the subject of Hemingway,” Stein wrote in “Alice B. Toklas.” “They both agreed that they have a weakness for Hemingway because he is such a good pupil. He is a rotten pupil, I protested. You don’t understand, they both said, it is flattering to have a pupil who does it without understanding it.” Stein’s voice and her experiments with sound are part of the spine of his work, and how gripping is that? To realize that Hemingway’s famously muscular prose was born of admiration for a middle-aged lesbian’s sui-generis sentences and paragraphs? Absorbing Stein’s influence, and admitting to his attraction, was one way of getting at what he always longed for: to be a girl in love with a powerful woman.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 5 April 2021 15:43 (three months ago) link

posthumously psychoanalyzing hemingway strikes me as a parlor game without much excitement

Judge Roi Behan (Aimless), Monday, 5 April 2021 16:51 (three months ago) link

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