nyrb ppl think he's good, lrb ppl think he's bad: it's like melody maker versus nme in the late 80s, and grebo
― mark s, Wednesday, September 19, 2018 6:08 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
in what way do lrb people think he’s bad? he’s in like every other issue
― flopson, Wednesday, 19 September 2018 23:09 (five years ago) link
I don't like the Grenfell piece, but I don't think it represents the political stance of the whole LRB (certainly not all of its contributors) -- more the political stance of its author.
O'Hagan is one of the LRB's 17 million contributing editors, who as far as I can see can publish whatever they like.
That NYRB issue hasn't even been published yet: I wonder if they'll actually run the article that blew up in their faces.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 19 September 2018 23:22 (five years ago) link
Interview with Buruma:
‘I am embroiled in a big scandal, in the middle of storm on social media,’ said Ian Buruma on the phone from New York. ‘It is rather ironic: as editor of The New York Review of Books I published a theme issue about #MeToo-offenders who had not been convicted in a court of law but by social media. And now I myself am publicly pilloried.’
― ArchCarrier, Thursday, 20 September 2018 07:37 (five years ago) link
really makes you think
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 20 September 2018 07:40 (five years ago) link
it's a pity he was a man
― Neil S, Thursday, 20 September 2018 08:42 (five years ago) link
Twitter runs the NYRB now.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 20 September 2018 09:35 (five years ago) link
new editors: shanley and the helldude
― mark s, Thursday, 20 September 2018 09:38 (five years ago) link
Flopson: yes, I know that Colm Toibin writes a lot in the LRB. I have said this twice on this thread. That is one reason that I said that my original comment was deliberately glib. The fact that he writes in the LRB is also the reason I have read loads of his essays, and think he is a quite bad and extremely overrated essayist.
Nonetheless, I think that Mark S's joke also has something to it -- I think that CT *is* more respected in the US than the UK. He works there, and anecdotally I have met American scholars who think he is wonderful and couldn't believe I didn't think the same.
The question re whether he is actually good or bad, in any individual's view here, should probably better be discussed on another thread. I think I have probably already said what I thought about it somewhere on this board.
Despite my typical great frustration with his essays I did read his book on Bishop. I'm not sure now if I thought it was better than the essays.
I have read two of his novels - I think they would need separate judgement.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 20 September 2018 10:37 (five years ago) link
It would be a pretty amazing own of Buruma by the disgruntled members of his former staff if the next issue was indeed composed entirely of the angry letters/emails and, of course, tweets of the last few days.
― Federico Boswarlos, Thursday, 20 September 2018 12:14 (five years ago) link
As a reward for making them see sense on this NYRB should commission mark s to review the dril book.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 20 September 2018 12:47 (five years ago) link
Update, September 20 at 9:36 a.m.: Buruma spoke briefly about his departure to the Dutch outlet Vrij Nederland, saying that he has “been convicted on Twitter, without any due process.” He also claims that he resigned from the position and that university presses, who advertise in the NYRB, were threatening a boycott because they feared adverse campus reactions to the Ghomeshi article.
― mookieproof, Thursday, 20 September 2018 14:53 (five years ago) link
It’s not a trial, dipshit!
― faculty w1fe (silby), Thursday, 20 September 2018 14:55 (five years ago) link
The blaming of the college kids is such a giveaway.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 20 September 2018 14:57 (five years ago) link
oh noes i was convicted on twitter just for being a shithead
(also the magazine would have lost a fuckton of revenue had i stayed on but waaaah social media)
― 🧛🏻♂️ F A T 🧛🏻♂️ D R A C U L A 🧛🏻♂️ (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 20 September 2018 14:57 (five years ago) link
idk how many college kids are aware of the NYRB enough to pressure university presses -- i'd guess the presses were more scared of a faculty response
(if any of that part is even true)
― mookieproof, Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:02 (five years ago) link
this thread is interesting but buruma doesn't seem like a dutch guy through and through.
his behavior is more simply explained by the fact that he is an old man and the apparent cultural consequences of polder model sound a lot like what you see everywhere else.
you remember my writings, discussions, rants, and other assorted peeves I got with Dutch media's mechanism of "debate"? Buruma, a Dutch guy through and through, tried to polder model sexual abuse and now has to contend with the fact that it is not an acceptable approach https://t.co/d6O4WOdgy6— Flavia Dzodan (@redlightvoices) September 19, 2018
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:16 (five years ago) link
how would "campus kids" even stage a boycott of university presses?
(lol except by not doing the reading i guess, a boycott without a discernible effect in many cases amirite?)
― mark s, Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:26 (five years ago) link
(sidebar: i love the word "polder" and the various dutch concepts that supposedly arise from it)
― mark s, Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link
w/Flavia there are no simple explanations (one of the best things about her).
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:34 (five years ago) link
I was quite interested recently to find POLDER as a term within SF criticism.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 20 September 2018 15:49 (five years ago) link
Link please, if possible
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 20 September 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
if "polder" does not appear somewhere in a Fall song I will eat someone's hat
― cheese is the teacher, ham is the preacher (Jon not Jon), Thursday, 20 September 2018 17:26 (five years ago) link
A Polder Lover etc.
― Zach Same (Tom D.), Thursday, 20 September 2018 17:30 (five years ago) link
James Redd:
http://sf-encyclopedia.uk/fe.php?nm=polder
― the pinefox, Thursday, 20 September 2018 17:48 (five years ago) link
doomed like the flying dutchman forever to sail the world's media, on his forehead a post-it note reading "dick" which everyone can see but him: the ian buruma story
― mark s, Thursday, 20 September 2018 21:39 (five years ago) link
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, September 20, 2018 5:16 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
^^ this.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 21 September 2018 07:19 (five years ago) link
See a lot of Dutch13s trying to appropriate what happened to try and explain this happened because he is Dutch. There's a black hole at the heart of the polder model, it has been used for eternity to cover things up or smooth things (hello racism) over. This particular case though seems reaching... He's an old white man, that's p much it in this instance imo.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 21 September 2018 07:23 (five years ago) link
very enterprisingly the NYRB, now that it has my email -- thx to me sending the message that toppled IB -- has begun spamming me with trailers for pieces not by jian ghomeshi
(i don't really mind this, i do think it's funny)
― mark s, Friday, 21 September 2018 15:25 (five years ago) link
A publisher who once threatened me with legal action also simultaneously added me to their mailing list
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Saturday, 22 September 2018 01:16 (five years ago) link
Just got my digital copy of the NYRB: it has the offending article, no angry letters, and lists Buruma as editor, so no last-minute changes to this edition.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Sunday, 23 September 2018 07:56 (five years ago) link
Posted in the LRB thread, but figured I'd also share here - one of the nice things the LRB does which I don't think the NYRB does (?) are publish 10K+ word essays/reviews.
I haven't finished this one from the new issue, but so far this is very moving and powerful.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n18/tom-crewe/here-was-a-plague
― Federico Boswarlos, Sunday, 23 September 2018 14:22 (five years ago) link
nyrb/buruma update, posted in the weinstein thread here (in case anyone missed it): Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs
"The article was shown to only one male editor. Most members of the staff (including six female members of staff...) were excluded from the substantial editorial process”^^^so much for the polder model!!
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 14:57 (five years ago) link
1/ Just received email of letter from 110 NYRB contributors protesting firing of Ian Buruma “His dismissal in these circumstances strikes us as an abandonment of the central mission of the Review, which is the free exploration of ideas.” pic.twitter.com/XI84Fkwrob— Cara Buckley (@caraNYT) September 25, 2018
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:29 (five years ago) link
*eyes roll out of head, onto floor, into the pits of hell*
― faculty w1fe (silby), Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link
nooo Luc Sante
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:47 (five years ago) link
he's going to be very put out when they run my email on the cover of the "reader's respond" issue
alfred brendel's response i'm less concerned abt at this juncture
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link
lol i hope they actually call it "reader's respond": ALL DRIL ALL THE TIME
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:55 (five years ago) link
I wonder who organized this letter, and how many of the signatories read the "not my concern" interview, and who was asked to sign and refused.
― mick signals, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 15:56 (five years ago) link
Maybe some of the signatories know him well enough to discount a poor choice of words in an interview vs the guy they know.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 17:30 (five years ago) link
it wasn't just a poor choice of words though, was it? He lied about the editorial process that led to the article
― Number None, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 17:50 (five years ago) link
I don’t see much description of the editorial process in the interview. He says there was an office discussion but that seems to have taken place after the substantive editing had taken place. So “lied” seems a bit strong. Maybe disagreements were stronger than he let on.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 20:05 (five years ago) link
Late to this, haven't read Mark's Burumabusting letter, am only familiar with "ponder" in its xpost Science Fiction Encyclopedia sense---"ponder modeling" is consensus-building, right? Normalizing etc. And he lied about consensus-building among the editors. re contributors' protest, don't see what the Ghomeshi piece had to with xpost ideas, or literature (he's not exactly the Celine of unrepentant sex offenders).
― dow, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 21:41 (five years ago) link
has anyone spotted the complete list of signatures anywhere? i've only found summaries and the cut-off alphabetical seen above
(my letter is not yet and may well never be publicly available, dow: it is merely one of i assume many emails sent to the nyrb)
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 21:48 (five years ago) link
Everyone is going to have one signatory in that list which is just going to cut you to pieces isn't it? Janet Malcolm re-think this!
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 25 September 2018 22:23 (five years ago) link
The letter they signed isn’t really Trenchant enough for me to be that fretful about any of the signatories.
― faculty w1fe (silby), Tuesday, 25 September 2018 22:35 (five years ago) link
I still haven't recovered from learning Jan Morris love watching Mrs Brown's Boys, so not able to even consider looking at signatories to that list
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 26 September 2018 03:47 (five years ago) link
I actually agree with the writers of that letter. It's such an overblown reaction to fire someone because of one stupid decision. Jonathan Haidt said on Sam Harris' podcast last week that the only correct way to deal with an internet mob is to ignore it. And here's Laura Kipnis in the New York Times:
Do we now live in such unforgiving times that one problematic essay (or interview) guillotines a job? If so, my fear is that no editor in America will be taking editorial risks ever again.
What’s painful about the stance of many now claiming the #MeToo mantle is the apparent commitment to shutting down voices and discussions that might prove distasteful or unnerving. What use is such an intellectually stifled version of feminism to anyone?
― ArchCarrier, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 06:36 (five years ago) link
Again, i suspect it's not so much the article alone as the completely clueless follow-up interview that did him in.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 26 September 2018 07:18 (five years ago) link
Yeah, what will we do if no editor will take brave risks like getting a scumbag to lie in an article and then keep the article away from editors so that the lies aren't caught in the editorial process. I mean, if prestigious magazines aren't willing to do that, then what are they even for?
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 07:47 (five years ago) link
The letter is disappointing, but it seems a lot like a professional group closing rank. They would rather not let outsiders have the ability to determine if an editorial process was good or bad.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 26 September 2018 07:51 (five years ago) link