cat person

Lol "lacking in the oxygen of externality", wtf is this bollocks?

There’s nothing wrong with meet/cute tropes. Xp

The fucking apps have ruined everything. People are out there trying to get laid in a context where 1.) there is no accountability, or incentive to put your best face forward, and 2.) it’s really easy to dehumanize the people you are interacting with this because they are words on a screen. They didn’t invent misogyny or anything but they’ve breathes more life in it during an era when trends should have been leading toward more equality. (Imho). They’ve ruined everything.

I think some of the negative male reactions to this have something to do with the category of 'creepiness', which includes stuff that can be considered moral failings or behavior that should be condemned (e.g abusive texts), but also stuff provokes disgust but it's also not really 'fair' to blame someone for (e.g. being fat, bad at kissing etc), but it's not possible to neatly separate the two, or how one might impact a potential lover's assessment of the other?

I don't think this is a failing of the story, and trying to separate the two would not be true to life (like some ppl were saying the story was 'fatphobic' and Robert should only be presented negatively for the actual morally bad things he does), but the framing via which a lot of ppl are encountering this story on social media is not as a piece of fiction which represents the ambiguities of real life, but as a righteous call-out of bad male behaviour, tweets about how all men should read this and reflect about their transgressions etc, I get why in that context men would get defensive about certain aspects of this and complain that they're being condemned for being a physically unattractive loser or whatever

Treezy what experience had you of dating pre apps for dating and I'm asking in a framing way not a shaming way

What are the characteristics of agreement/disagreement with the content of a short piece of fiction and what moral conclusions are to be drawn answers to the usual address

Sorry, I don’t follow this.

xps by focusing so intensely on the already-solipsistic central pair it failed to offer the relief or the mystery of external circumstances - settings, people, whatever - and perhaps by design, too, in order to induce a sort of psychological claustrophobia. i suppose the author succeeded in making it feel unpleasant

anyway yeah carry on treesh

My experience trying to meet people on apps has been mediocre but not terrible — women aren’t weird or mean on there like men are — but it still seems to bizarre for me. It aldo seems bad/frightening/dystopian to have like hundreds of matches lined up in an inbox.

I mosty think the apps are bad because of what I hear from my friends who are women. I think the technology has given a lot of fucked up guys the perfect opportunity to embrace their inner stalker, and maybe prevented them from learning real social skills or empathy.

Maybe my analysis is off the mark but I do think a piece of this conversation that is missing is how technology has affected the way people live. I’m probably unduly reactionary about various forms of social media, but still, I’d welcome more analysis from cooler heads.

fwiw online dating has been a boon to myself (when I was still in the game) and tons of friends of both genders: having a profile where you could advance a few starting points before you get too deep into the conversation was a lot less humiliating, and had less potential for disaster, than trying to pull in a bar. Never gave Tinder much of a go though, these picture + one line of text apps do feel a lot more transactional.

There’s nothing wrong with meet/cute tropes.

Whether there's something wrong with the trope-as-trope is irrelevant to the point I was making: there's tons wrong with using fiction tropes as a guide to how romance works in real life, and yet mostly we all still do it.

the framing via which a lot of ppl are encountering this story on social media is not as a piece of fiction which represents the ambiguities of real life, but as a righteous call-out of bad male behaviour, tweets about how all men should read this and reflect about their transgressions etc, I get why in that context men would get defensive about certain aspects of this and complain that they're being condemned for being a physically unattractive loser or whatever

This is totally correct but tbf at this point I feel like social media corrupts everything it touches.

Even in this story, this guy probably wouldn’t have dared to sejd that message as a letter or phone call. Maybe he would have, but probably not. People aren’t as careless with older media.

Self xp

Phone call probably not, letter probably yes (cf Julian Barne's <i>The Sense Of An Ending</i>, not that I enjoyed it much); the distinction isn't old media/new media, it's between facing a real human being and writing to one imo.

putting out the fire with gassy memes

Hey soda, great post. Interested to know (as a writing teacher) what about it you thought was "just okay" and "interesting" rather than "good"

But the second conversation, about the story itself – which the author is certainly strong enough to bear – is where I feel comfortable putting an oar in the water. As a piece of fiction it is strange, and kind of unique, and I think it merits and supports a rollicking conversation. To belittle discussion/disagreement/reaction to it is paternalistic and snide (that 'men react to cat people' twitter irritates me), because I am certain the author will not curl up meekly.

good post imo. i do think there is v little discussion of the story itself and the technicality of it, which i suppose is to be expected, most people don't care about that.

i also find that it's p common for people to focus on the political necessity of stories rather than the stories themselves. tbh sometimes this isn't that useful to the writer. last week somebody in my masters class wrote a story about a muslim teenager revealing to a friend that she's a lesbian. the discussion became so politically charged, both in favour of and against the story and the language used, that it made it almost impossible for anyone to give her any useful feedback or comment about the technical elements of it as a story.

i personally felt that that ends up as a form of prejudice in itself - she said to me in the pub after that "you can't even say 'islam' without a huge uncontrollable discussion happening".

i guess now the cat person author is in the ny'er feedback is not so important, but it's still interesting how something becomes a political football. l

(In my mind the story's small remit and use of archetypes works to the story's benefit - if you find it claustrophobic and bothersome, that's a sign of the story working. But without seeing more work by the writer, it's hard to say whether those limitations are specific choices for the story or a sign of the writer's own limits.)

i realise it's a major white male privilege to sit here and say "i just want to talk the technicalities of the story" but i also think the literary world is quite patronising towards less privileged groups, even (especially?) when it is praising or lionising them.

xpost

lol that i thought it was first person! in my memory it is. i gather the term of art is "third person limited"

from the first page of google results on that as a search term:

There are a number of reasons why you might decide that third person limited may be right for your next work of fiction. Here are just a few possibilities:

You want the ability to show a situation through the eyes of an interesting or unique character;

You are writing a mystery, and want the reader to experience the clues and outcomes from the point of view of one of your characters;

You are telling a story in which your main character's perspectives evolve or change, and you want to show those changes through their eyes;

You want to maintain a sense of uncertainty about other characters' motivations, emotions, or past.

check, check, check, check

re: something upthread about how he was not a stalker:
there have been abundant stalkers (from those who leave notes/gifts to those who hide behind bushes and wait for you to come home, etc*) long before mobile phones/texting/apps -- the impulse has always been there, just like the impulse to be a creep. both behaviors are motivated by entitlement imo/ime. going to the student bar and waiting for her in a corner by himself is pretty standard stalking. upthread someone suggested it might be the starting point of something that could become stalking. stalking is watching, waiting, monitoring. that's what he was doing.

i think one of the most interesting things about this story is the very true-to-life way she deludes herself into thinking he is someone more interesting/more kind than he really is. in some ways, his witty texts and performative kindness works, just a little. just enough :( even though she is in college, she is probably bored with her options. college boys are just high school boys with one or two more years under their belts and more freedom. this guy was an adult and he had an apartment and was witty with an air of mystery. and he responded to her flirtation. that feels good. and then after the encounter, when she finally realizes that this is not something she wishes to pursue and chooses to cut off her communication with him, it turns out he is not only disappointing, but hostile. tale as old as time.

*both things that have happened to me and my closest friends, just 2 examples of many

The story was inspired by a small but nasty encounter I had with a person I met online. I was shocked by the way this person treated me, and then immediately surprised by my own shock. How had I decided that this was someone I could trust? The incident got me thinking about the strange and flimsy evidence we use to judge the contextless people we meet outside our existing social networks, whether online or off.

My response above was to the specifics of texting as stalking. In the story it's mostly the usual back-and-forth with gaps in between, standard stuff between two people texting.

My recall is her noticing a swift response but I think there were variable gaps as time went on?

So idk, couldn't see anything, except at the end where he lashes out, where it could escalate to something potentially harmful. But as the story cuts off it ends as as proof of some of her later instincts turning out right

Xp ll

yeah i agree with that -- some of this story seems to be about the lack of accuracy of interpreting nonverbal communicative behavior (length of time between texts, response time, for example) which isn't all that different from waiting for someone to call you back. interpreting the silence.

when i read the end i felt good for her actually -- shame she had to go through the disappointing sexual encounter, but at least she had made the decision to cut him loose. that's something.

That’s an odd reading, if you don’t mind me saying so - ‘contextless people we meet outside our existing social networks’ is pretty much the definition of dating apps. I mean, there’s the context of hey how are you, would you like to take your clothes off with me, but you’re missing every other bit of structure.

xp to mh

not true, you will usually know which albums by bands they enjoy also

My response above was to the specifics of texting as stalking.

you said "How is he stalking her?" about a story in which he shows up at a place where she is, unwanted. i mean you could prob call it stalking when he goes back to her workplace to ask her out too.

xpost

Also not to forget that some of the observational comedy of the piece is very on point, relatable and funny. I definitely lol'd (with bittersweet recognition) at

At last, after a frantic rabbity burst, he shuddered, came, and collapsed on her like a tree falling, and, crushed beneath him, she thought, brightly, This is the worst life decision I have ever made!

i think the best thing about the piece is how brilliant and hence terrible the sex scene is - there are literally yearly awards for bad writing about sex, it's hard to do and people avoid it so often, she went right into it no holds barred and it is deeply realised and uncomfortable.

also it is now causing me to wonder when the first new yorker story using the word "came" in this sense actually was, and the negative and then positive editorial decisions leading up to it

you, a nerd: have you read about Cat Person?
me, well informed on topical items: uh, he goes by Yusuf Islam now
— Five Bergolden Rings 🎅🎁🎄 (@BergoEsBueno) December 11, 2017

― ||||||||, Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:50 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is an incredibly good tweet

Ok LG I think because your posts centred around texting vs aps, and then you started talking about stalking in the middle of it...apols for any misread.

I don't count him asking for her number as stalking, given their interaction previously and that she said yes.

xp to Andrew

That’s fair. The phrasing reminded me of a story a woman on twitter recently shared. The kind of ad hoc interaction and joking leading up to a meet, and the missing pieces slowly becoming clear.

I do think it’s interesting that we instantly jump to dating apps when talking about meeting online

Tbh I was relieved there were no actual cats in this story, so as not to deepen the stigma against men who own cats.

what's this about a stigma
*shuffles cat under the couch*

the term is pussyboy

"cat person" may go the way of "catfish"
who knows!

a cat a man a plan a napalm catamaran

why pick a man who you're not attracted to?

You get to a certain level of desperation where you just end up thinking "why the hell not, could turn out to be good" (meetcute tropes reinforce this).

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, December 12, 2017 12:07 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Because there are other ways to find someone attractive besides them being a gorgeous film star type on first glance? Someone you were like "Ehhh he looks...normal?" can become beautiful to you when you know them and there's significance to little expressions, habits. You have to try them out to know, though. Or is this just me? I've dated lots of men I wasn't initially smitten with because what else can you do? Beautiful ppl date each other, and I hope (or did when I was dating--I don't really think about it now) that men will regard "normal" women with the same openness and appreciation. (If not, it's NYC, feel free to chase models or w/e but that's not going to end well for pretty much anyone.) But the thing is that sometimes the expected schedule of "date - date w/ kiss - date w/ kiss again - fancier date - sleep together" happens before you figure them out and then you're in the middle of things wondering how this happened but stopping it would be a big disruption and after all you let things get this far....

i think one of the most interesting things about this story is the very true-to-life way she deludes herself into thinking he is someone more interesting/more kind than he really is. in some ways, his witty texts and performative kindness works, just a little. just enough :( even though she is in college, she is probably bored with her options. college boys are just high school boys with one or two more years under their belts and more freedom. this guy was an adult and he had an apartment and was witty with an air of mystery. and he responded to her flirtation. that feels good. and then after the encounter, when she finally realizes that this is not something she wishes to pursue and chooses to cut off her communication with him, it turns out he is not only disappointing, but hostile. tale as old as time.

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 boom

My experience trying to meet people on apps has been mediocre but not terrible — women aren’t weird or mean on there like men are

....

good post, io

that added weirdness of "well, this guy likes the movies at the theater I work at and so do I, so we've got that in common" that slowly evaporates as she realizes that's not really a commonality and he seems to associate her working there with pretension is o_O

Many many xps

that is what people are debating. some say it is ambiguous, others say the ending removes a lot of ambiguity.

moving away from that slightly, i just think this idea of "he's left open, you can interpret him how you wish" is kind of a thing people say that sounds like it's clever on behalf of the writer but isn't necessarily so.

I'm not saying it's necessarily clever - it's a standard feature of this type of fiction, sometimes to a fault. Anyway, my post was more in response to this idea that ppl who read the guy as being a serious creep or PUA type are reading it wrong, when the story itself strongly hints at this possibility throughout, to the point that the protagonist wonders about it.

(I'm ambivalent about the ending in general but don't agree it tips its hand too strongly in this regard, mainly cause it resonates with a similar experience I've had)

in orbit

you use the word "normal" and i agree with you, but margot/narrator deliberately said the word "revulsion" and the way she describes him in the first half of the story is kinda...gross? he wasn't a normal/avg looking person is what i get from the story

but i agree w u if we're talking about a regular/avg/normal looking person

tbh im surprised ppl are thinking the ending is over the top or too on the nose, seemed totally believable to me and believability is overrated anyway, also not really understanding the hostility towards short stories that have that formal tie things up with a bow ending, imho its s totally legitimate if not the only approach, i like it as a matter of fact even

wld be kinda fun if (so not gonna happen) were entering an age of super punchy topical viral short stories that enrage hardcore fans of the form

I feel guilty now but I pictured the dude in the story as a slightly angrier version of an acquaintance of mine and I could picture him fuming at the bar about this whole ordeal and sending nasty text messages after a couple drinks

haa

o yeah i pictured him as an angrier version of... an acquaintance too

i don't think he's supposed to be particularly repulsive, i think there's something to the notion however that when you meet someone new and you don't find them immediately super, super attractive, as you start to become involved w/them you shift back and forth as the relationship progresses and their personality or mannerisms make them much more or much less attractive. what you'd find sexy in a person whom you admire and respect and love might become a repulsive characteristic in someone who creeps you out or whom you dislike.

also the reason i bring up dating apps is bc i feel like dating apps have had a huge impact on our social interactions

i used to talk to random women at cafes and just make small talk or make a joke and if she followed up i could ask a question or make another comment and things could move forward from there. there was this intrigue to it bc i didnt kno if we had anything in common and it all started from a silly comment or a small observation

on say okc women have essay length profiles, dislikes, interests, protocols as to how one shld approach her, requirements of all sorts, questions answered about life, religion, sex, mundane things, etc

and everyone is free to judge you based on whether or not you read their profile

this goes both ways of course, w guys being straight to the point, getting numbers as quickly as possible and moving things to a real date and sex faster imo

all this complicates our social interactions and i believe they are different from a man meeting a movie theatre attendant at the movies. robert sounds like a very weird, lonely guy that is probably always on the internet/web. i mean a 20 year old not asking for a guy's social media accts or not more web savvy seems...different in our times especially as that is women scope a guy out and see what he is like

and yes all of us make generalizations abt robert bc this is a short story and we know next to nothing abt him. we are inside margot's head more so things on her side are explained more clearly

xp

I pictured him as Oscar from The Affair