ILX Book Club - Jennifer Egan: A Visit from the Goon Squad

Wow, I'm really sorry if I've spoiled things for people.

Me too--I read it all in one day off work, which is a vote in its favour, and got carried away in my commenting. Sorry!

Can't agree with that reading pinefox. The causal relationship you read into this isn't necessarily there. An analagous sentence might be something like:

Bennie's father was a professional golfer; Bennie was a keen amateur who played off scratch.

The second half of the sentence tells us something about Bennie's interests and aptitudes; the first suggests how and why those interests and aptitudes may have developed. The sentence as a whole doesn't mean that Bennie's interests and aptitudes flow inevitably from his father's profession.

I'm reminded of the legal principle that if the wording of a statute can be read in two ways, and one of those ways produces an absurdity, then we ought to assume that the draughtsmen intended the meaning that is not absurd. Your reading of the sentence renders its meaning absurd, and since it is perfectly possible to read it in other ways that are not then I think we ought to give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that the non-absurd meaning is the one she intended.

D'oh draftsmen.

I don't think I understand your disagreement.

It seems pretty clear that the sentence implies a causal relationship between its two halves.

It doesn't say 'was a keen amateur' or 'did at least know how to fix a lightbulb', but 'could light anything' - that's a big part of the problem, the overemphasis. It's like bad Hollywood logic, not real life logic.

The main issue here for me is not the detail that the character could or not be a good electrician, etc. It's something about authorial judgement - the way she lapses into the over-emphatic cos it sounds cooler than something less emphatic; the way she takes a path of least resistance into the over-emphatic option. I think the earlier sentence I quoted re father & son also showed a failure of judgement, so there may be a general problem here, from my POV; though the more general problem I really have is the one that others have noted, namely that the writing doesn't do anything very special.

Given the way this book is going, I can imagine that there may well be a chapter about how B. became an electrician, which would I suppose make the sentence look less lazy and more earned.

clarification: that is, there may well be a chapter about how B. followed his electrician father around from job to job and, through close observation, aquired the skills to LIGHT ANYTHING.

Meanwhile:

In person, Egan is slight, modest, at odds perhaps with the force of her prose, which is lit by a casual brilliance and so compacted as to be almost tangible.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/may/07/jennifer-egan-life-goon-squad

In person, Egan is casual, tangible, brilliantly lit by the son of a local electrician, at odds perhaps with the slight modesty of her prose.

Thought about getting this from the library but all I got was 482 holds on first copy returned of 115 copies- dang, this thing is popular. Read the ebook sample and gotta say that I was having the same anthropologist from mars reaction as the pinefox. For instance, on the first page there is this: We live in a city where people will still the hair off your head if you give them half a chance. Oh really? Who are these people? What do they do with the hair? What is it worth on the street? Is there a hair-legging operation being run by some Williamsburg wig merchants? Maybe in Chapter 7 this will be revealed? Probably not, probably it's just an "inventive" way to say this is a tough town, watch your back.

You might say I am misreading, picking on the poor sentence, but despite all the reviews about the modern, luminous, diamond hard prose, and the 482 holds on the 115 copies, Nabokov it ain't.

aargh. will steal the hair off your head

But maybe it should be "still," which would lead to exciting revenuer chase scene hijinks in Chapter 9.

115 copies of a new novel? your local library must be Alexandria, if not Babel, or possibly Deptford.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/libraryken.jpg
http://www.nypl.org/

If you look closely, Ken C is trying to intercept one of those 115 copies en route to the legitimate next borrower for his own nefarious reading pleasure.

What's wrong with these people who don't know how to use a library?

really that line bugs you?

and saying 'well shes not nabokov' just reminds me of that shakey mo thread abt modern fiction - there are a lot of authors who arent navokov! he was one of the best authors of the 20th century!

and some of us think Nabokov is overrated too!

That line does feel like she was about to write "where people will steal the shirt of your back" and then thought "Woah cliche alert! Hmmm let me see..."

Agree with pinefox also about the bennie/electrician and rolph/father lines, they're aiming for a solidity that just breaks down under analysis.

I have a horrible feeling the Rolph line is an allusion to Proust :(

and saying 'well shes not nabokov'

so you were exaggerating

Don't know about that. Recently I downloaded and was reading or re-reading the first chapters of some of his books and really liking his sentences, such as this from The Gift: "The van's forehead bore a star-shaped ventilator. Running along its entire side was the name of the moving company in yard-high blue letters, each of which (including a square dot) was shaded laterally with black paint: a dishonest attempt to climb into the next dimension."

That line does feel like she was about to write "where people will steal the shirt of your back" and then thought "Woah cliche alert! Hmmm let me see..."

Speaking of author's opinions differing from their characters, I recently read a collection of short stories that I liked where there was a lot of mocking of characters for liking The Grateful Dead. Later I read an interview with the author and he said that actually he was a big fan of The Dead, but he knew a lot of people felt that way so he put that in. Everything Here Is The Best Thing Ever it was called.

That's such a typical contemporary US title !!!

I hoped at first glance that you were referring to 'The Dead', which I have just reread.

xxpost i've been meaning to read that! so it was good?

Just a few thoughts: identification, not sure how much this bothers me generally. I like liking and disliking characters in books, and identification can play a bit part in that (on on the widest existential level Josef K for instance). Other times not identifying doesn't matter to me - the characters in Dostoevsky's The Idiots for example, or a satire like the Apes of God, although that book has colossal problems perhaps partly to do with alienation of reader sympathy. Only thing that can really put me off with characters is going 'oh ffs' a lot.

I'm not sure how much identification matters in a novel of many different equally weighted characters. Is there a lack of identification with all the characters? I mean, I'm genuinely not sure, it's not rhetorical disagreement. Sympathy is quite an important element in Good Squad, so I guess if there's no feeling for any of the characters then that could be a problem.

My feeling is that much of A is to do with alienation from those around you, usually because of a specific psychological detail - kleptomania, shame, Scotty's dissociative (is that the right word) perception, or indeed the anthropological stance in the African chapter. B feels like how you reconnect with those about you, but prob best leave that for the moment. Anyway, that alienation, that feels sympathetic to me, and interesting when perceived from different angles.

Not sure that D Mitchell isn't a bit of a red-herring tbh, Cloud Atlas had specifically nested narratives, these feel like looser connections, and so time has a slightly different, not so important element, that feels more to do with an aesthetic. Like with that foreshadowing that you felt was clumsy, I felt that was more like trying to include time in a picture, long perspective.

re: 'cool youth' i know what you mean in a way, although people forming bands happens quite a lot at school, they just don't have the success, but more importantly they're not happy and i thought this chapter really drew out teenage interaction really well, the internal envy and exclusion you are talking about feeling here.

Not sure any of this would count if I didn't like the style, but I do. Possibly for the same reasons that lead pinefox to call it plain. I like the easy way it included things like drugs and music, which are frequently, in fact in my limited experience always badly handled.

So, RJ's "I have a really hard time with band references in novels ... not sure why ... maybe it just feels like shorthand for characterization, or, like the author is trying to convince you that she is cool ... or that the book is trying too hard to appeal to people who want to consume fiction that reaffirms their own self-image of a person of xyz tastes" I disagree with I think. Or at least I definitely agree with it a lot of the time, but I think JE avoids it.

Sorry this is a bit long, I wanted to catch up a bit, but it's probably a bit cumbersome. Also need to have a shufti at the book again because I've only got vague impressions floating around at this remove.

xxpost i've been meaning to read that! so it was good?
Very good. I liked it so much that I immediately bought one book with a similar cover color scheme- I guess they are both Harper Perennials- but I couldn't get into the other one, which was What He's Poised To Do.

Ha, pinefox, I was thinking same thing whilst typing.

Oh

'His father had been an electrician; Bennie could light anything'.
Novelists seem to be keen on this kind of statement

completely otm.

Thanks Fizzles for your approval + for your interesting comments above.

But

people forming bands happens quite a lot at school

what school? not any school I ever went to.

Which goes back to the whole point about finding things exclusive - which doesn't make the writing bad, but does make it harder for me to like the story.

re Mitchell I believe I was specifically referring to Ghostwritten. But sure, I don't say that this novel is really much like that. As far as I can tell, JE is a much less gifted writer than DM (though not awful). It was just one relevant comparison that came to hand.

The 'btw this African tribesman 35 years later was an art dealer in NYC' thing I can understand working in the abstract -- I just don't think, somehow, that JE pulls it off in practice, hence 'clumsy'.

Actually, guess what? People do not necessarily inherit the skills and knowledge that their relatives have. Any one of us could say 'my mother was X, but I can't do xyz things that her job required'.

people forming bands happens quite a lot at school
what school? not any school I ever went to.

Bog standard comp, five form and sixth form I guess. It just seemed to be something people did. Not many of them performed in any meaningful way. Glee it wasn't.

As I say, I feel that exclusion is the whole deal with the first half of the book, although obviously that's not at all saying that if you feel excluded from the book, the characters' feelings of exclusion are going to feel at all sympathetic. They're not the same, clearly.

I thought Goon Squad did seem quite gifted really. I liked her easy way with the psychology of social interaction. The mechanics of how we get on with people. I feel I'm perhaps being a little critically naive tho. Is this what Alfred Lord Soto meant by it being a pop novel? As in pop psychology, or was that just to do with the music?

Now I'm hearing in my head Jerry Garcia and Christopher Walken harmonizing the words "upon all the living and dead." Must drive it out with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy27p86zjF4

Also will probably have to pay the $9.99 for the rest of the book to continue participating in thread.

I liked her easy way with the psychology of social interaction. The mechanics of how we get on with people

I think that this sounds like excellent subject matter for a book, or an excellent thing for a novelist to do well.

In the first 100pp or so, I don't think I've found JE doing it especially well.

All things considered, I've realized that I don't the first 120pp have been very good in any way at all.

But, there is a long way to go and I think that numerous things could change.

i like that optimism!

well, the book is more protean than most - if any book could improve radically halfway through, this one seems a candidate.

Didn't make too much of an impression. None of this -- manias, the scene, time jumps -- particularly bothered me one way or another. Nor did the 'not real anymore' guff that Egan/Bennie mouth off as it does reflect what people at a certain time and place would think, and would keep thinking. Many think it today.

Having said all that I'm looking forward to the Powerpoints. Don't care if its a gimmick as long as it works on some level.

But so far, its clearly nowhere near as exciting as The Last Samurai.

Has anyone come across any negative reviews for "Goon Squad"?

After I finished the book and felt pretty let down by it, I went googling for dissenting views and I didn't find any. Although, I lost my stomach for the search after reading one too many lines like this (from The Denver Post):

"Here, in ways that surprise and delight again, she transcends slick boomer nostalgia and offers a testament to the redemptive power of raw emotion in an age of synthetic sound and glossy avatars.

Turn up the music, skip the college reunion and curl up with "The Goon Squad" instead."

(That's in reference to the ending, which I am really eager to discuss but .... gotta wait, right? )

I felt the same and eventually came across this vaguely mixed review:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/a-visit-from-the-goon-squad-by-jennifer-egan-2264678.html

she transcends slick boomer nostalgia

Precisely what it doesn't do.

Re: the penultimate sentence of that Independent review, although it's an imperfect and in many ways unfair analogy, I do kind of feel that Goon Squad is X&Y to Underworld's OK Computer.

xpost - I haven't, although I only read a couple of reviews. Like most people I expect I don't have the stomach for blanket praise, and find myself obscurely thinking less of the work being reviewed. I start feeling with dissatisfied - disagreements with the reviewer become disagreements with the book. When I read it, I liked it because it felt fresh and fun, but the impedimenta of praise + expectation start making it look 'important' and I'm not sure it can really support that. Actually I think there are reasons why it could be seen as significant, but wdn't want to push them too hard. As I say, I enjoyed it, but when in trying to enthuse as an antidote to disappointment, I find myself wishing I didn't have to. I enjoyed the reading of it, and am pleased if other people enjoyed it, but I don't really want to defend it against those who, perfectly reasonably, didn't enjoy it. That's rather resigned isn't it? Maybe I'm not book club material.

get caught in the tribal violence between the Kikuyu and the Luo and will die in a fire
"will die in a fire"- wonder if this is a tribute to The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie

will never read this book but enjoying this thread

Interview in the guardian today, can't find it online though.

pinefox linked it upthread

omg beaten at IT by the pinefox :/

... disagreements with the reviewer become disagreements with the book. When I read it, I liked it because it felt fresh and fun, but the impedimenta of praise + expectation start making it look 'important' and I'm not sure it can really support that. Actually I think there are reasons why it could be seen as significant, but wdn't want to push them too hard. As I say, I enjoyed it, but when in trying to enthuse as an antidote to disappointment, I find myself wishing I didn't have to. I enjoyed the reading of it, and am pleased if other people enjoyed it, but I don't really want to defend it against those who, perfectly reasonably, didn't enjoy it. That's rather resigned isn't it? Maybe I'm not book club mater

Yeah, I hear you. I'm pretty sure I would have had a more positive reaction to the book if I had read it pre-hype. As it is though, I'm responding to the hype as much as I am to the book. And I tend to be reflexively contrarian when responding to critic's darlings so I probably had a grudge against the book before even starting it (and I'd bet I'm not the only ILBer in that camp). I definitely agree though that the novel felt fresh and fun. And it is very "of the moment," which I think a lot of readers and reviewers found refreshing, and that aspect speaks to a lot of the discussion of the importance/relevance of novel-reading that seems to be in the air.

It was entertaining, very readable, but the last 1/3 left a bad taste for me. Not a total failure though. And I liked the powerpoint chapter too. I'd definitely like to hear positive responses and reasons why you or anyone else find the book important/significant Obv it is important in one regard: a lot of people are reading it and even seeing it as some kind of cultural touchstone ... and that says something about the present cultural moment ... but, well, dealing with that involves responding to the context of the book which, again, is problematic ... but unavoidable, right? I think that we are probably over-eager to find cultural touchstones, to see ourselves reflected in fiction (which brings up my earlier point re: pop-cultural references), just as the majority of this particular "we" (ILB folk) are probably over-eager to disavow these cultural touchstones that seem (wrongly, arbitrarily) assigned to us.

Oh, and that slightly negative review from The Independent was pretty insubstantial. Where's James Wood when you need him?? Haha.

Agree with the well-expressed negativity above.

140pp in, on the train through SE London, wound up thinking: really, for all the hype, reviews, interviews, for all the fact that we all wanted to read it, and for all my attempts to say something positive about it -- this book has been utterly mediocre so far.

I think that's true, but it's also possible, even likely, that I am 'projecting' somehow from real life as I know it. I suppose the correlative of that is, if I was happy and positive about things, I would like the book. But would I, even then?

I've skipped quite a lot here, but I just wanted to tell you, my real friends, that I did a very strange thing today: I went into and actual book shop and bought this actual book and then, as if that wasn't enough, on my way home I started reading it! And now I'm going to read some more!

FWIW I liked chapter one and had no difficulty relating to kleptowoman. I also thought it was "well written".

MORE LATER...

on the one hand it seems crazy to me to call this book "mediocre," but on the other i think a lot of my favorite books might be described that way, in the sense that they're about people and their relationships and are not...i don't know if "important" is the right way to describe it, but "difficult" i guess? feel like i always end up getting into this kind of argument about books. not just on ilx, really.