Samuel Delany

i actually like triton and stars more than i do dhalgren, not entirely sure why

congratulations u dont like kiddie sex

wait, what happened to the thread title?

surely the lead's relationship with an autistic character in 'stars ...' is just as troubling on that level as the fifteen year old in dhalgren? or is there something i'm forgetting. i mean, none of these books is quite hogg, i mean.

yeah, i feel like the quote-unquote kiddie sex in dhalgren is totally an exploration of transgression and mental/social/literary breakdown that isn't really about what it's about.

of course, that could also be the polite lie i tell myself so that i can enjoy the rest of the book.

I changed the title from "Sam Delany" to "Samuel Delany."

a regular Chip off the old block?

haw

WmC - I forgive you.

im reading a book of short stories by this guy and hes hella easy to find v cheap

Lots of Delany around but I've never seen a copy of Stars

Not having read Dhalgren, Babel-17 is the best of his I have read: so joyously full of great ideas, so much bouncy FUN

I just finished Dhalgren, so great, thanks guys. Call me a fag, but I always get a little bit sad when I finish a big novel and this was no exception. I'm thinking of reading Stars now.

call me a fag

Just finished Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. Totally different pace from Dhalgren, this had me clawing for the main narrative for most of the book. As a result, I really didn't give enough attention to some of the detailed description which I feel is a really big part of this book - to realise the sensations and image of these planets, especially Velm. The relationship between Marq and Rat made me quite sick, knowing you can't help but be attracted to another being is somewhat sickening, Marq didn't complain of course, but like those couples who seem so made for eachother, as a couple they struck me as boring and corny.

the hands-as-parentheses bit is pretty central, iirc

i'm curious what the other half of it would have looked like: a tour of a planet from the other set of aliens (the Family?), plus a coda? i don't know. i don't remember a lot of the details but it's my favourite of his books. this is in part due to a bit which isn't particularly central to the thrust of the book in itself, that part in the opening section where rat (?) finds a mental implant that lets him read/experience the entire western canon in seconds; that hit me in a peculiar way, as a teen.

I was particularly taken by that opening section too, and was expecting the book to take off from there, to my surprise, it was not to be. Thanks for your thoughts.

I've bought Dhalgren, and keep picking it up, but it's so huuuuuge. Need to gather my resources.

I read Driftglass in my early teens. Didn't get everything but got a lot. Delany for me will always represent vistas opening (yet in truth I never read much past Nova). "Night and The Loves..." was exactly what I wished a short story would do. It probably still is but I don't dare reread it.

His use, over and over, of teen-prodigy characters didn't seem realistic when I was that age, and far into adulthood, having seen a certain amount, I find it a gimmick and more about Delany (or SF) than about the world.

These days, the imaginary world of Delany that fascinates me is his lost New York, as unreachable as his distant planets.

Editing issue: should be "did exactly what" and "probably still does."

I shall begin reading The Mad Man soon, I'm expecting some of Delany's 'lost New York'.

You won't be disappointed there, as I recall.

And check Heavenly Breakfast, an autobiographical novel(pub. 1979). Its title is also the name of a real-life 60s NYC psych-folk band. SD was a satellite member, sort of.

Also loads of 1960-1965 Manhattan in his memoir, The Motion of Light in Water.

I was just looking at the wiki for his next novel -- it's done, he's just having trouble finding a publisher. It was originally supposed to be published by Alyson Publications, but apparently they've gone under and he's back to shopping it around to publishers.

Man, I'm just finishing up The Mad Man(took me 5 months wtf?! I've been busy). Insane book, really, but Delany really knows how to challenge and reward I think, just as you're becoming insensitive to some bloke shitting all over another blokes face whilst a group of other guys are jacking off all over the guy who is getting shitted on, he throws you a bone. Fantastic.

try hogg next, then. no thrown bones in that one.

Finally reading Auden's Dyer's Hand, which is everything Motion of Light in Water made it out to be and more -- the secondhand quote that Delany gives from it is golden -- and really perfect for Motion..., which is one of my fav Delany books, and fav. works of literary autobiography full stop. There's so many scenes that I remember really clearly from it -- the pockets thing, for example!

a tour of a planet from the other set of aliens (the Family?)

as i understand it, the sygn and family don't exactly work like this ... you might be reading it a bit too much like star trek. the sygn and the family are names for philosophies, not rigid political groups like the federation and klingons.

i forget whether it's the north or the south where humans and evelm don't get along, but in that half of the world you might say the family philosophy is predominant - you are a human first, or an evelm first, and you find strength in that mentality.

in the sygn communities you are a free thinking subject first, and you sort of choose your family or define it as you see it, and your identity (racial, gender, cultural, whatever) comes second.

never read him, should I go?

http://www.welcometolace.org/events/view/screening-the-polymath-or-the-life-and-opinions-of-samuel-r-delany-gentleman/

he is one of my favorite authors and i found him really tedious. i posted a thread about going to see him, it was an awful experience. he mostly talked about discovering he was bisexual, how he got into cruising times square porn theatres, and the gradual erosion of our shared times square porn theatre cultural heritage.

if you are a bicurious or a queer theory grad student you might find it highly stimulating? but as a sci fi fan, or just for kicks, no.

ok

. this is in part due to a bit which isn't particularly central to the thrust of the book in itself, that part in the opening section where rat (?) finds a mental implant that lets him read/experience the entire western canon in seconds

this *is* central to the thrust of the book itself

he's one of martin skidmore's favorite authors. the guy doing martin's funeral service today read from something martin wrote about dhalgren, which i found really moving. it was martin's favorite book.

really want to hear sam delaney monologuing about cruising

i found it hard to follow because a lot of it was in reference to cruising scenes in post-70s delany i hadn't read.

i really want to read some more delaney, when i was in america you could pick up cheap paperbacks by him really easily but over here he's p hard to come by

really want to hear sam delaney monologuing about cruising

― plax (ico), Thursday, August 18, 2011

there's a whole book about this btw

yeah, baja's summary of the event sounds a lot like 'times square red, times square blue'

that was the book!

I haven't read Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, but his book The Mad Man features a lot of cruising, the porn theatres are involved too, the book also documents the impact of AIDS on the gay community. The way Delany describes them, those porn theatres were really home to a kind of exchange and communication that is seldom seen nowadays, I'm not a queer theorist though.

that's the thesis of times square blue (which is the second half of 'times square red...', the first ('times square red', natch) being a memoir of them): that the sexual motivation to go into those locales actually underscored and expedited a whole raft of non-sexual contact up and down the social scale, & that in 'cleaning up' times square (& in similar efforts elsewhere) we're making movement lateral to one's class boundaries much less likely. i don't know in what form it creeps into the novel; never found a copy of 'the mad man'. (almost wrote 'mad men'.)

I think that argument is certainly a big part of the mad man novel. I should really give times square red, time square blue a read.

http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/2010/11/chip-delany/
http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/2011/01/chip-delany-part-2-the-miracle-of-dhalgren/

found a copy of 'the mad man'

nice! let us know how it is, i've never read it.

i've started on my draft of "the splendor and misery of bodies, of cities", brian herbert and kevin j anderson style

i'm at the part where rat and marq sneak into the xlv fleet and commandeer a stolen experimental fighter, it turns out that the rings of vondramach okk allow rat to interface w/ xlv biocomputers!

making movement lateral to one's class boundaries much less likely reminds me of Charlie Haden and others on living in 60s Lower East Side tenements, all those artists in dif genres and media in same bldgs--plus a lot of other characters--this way on into late 70s too

Not only easier to speak of, but it also has its real importance -- important enough so that when such encounters as the above three -- as opposed to any of the others I've described -- cease, one seeks out other cruising grounds. Several times since high school I've abandoned one area of the city for another, when forces I will never comprehend drive down the number of such accessible, satisfying exchanges, whose satisfaction is always, Sam, measured on a (or on several) scale(s) more complex than the sexual. Yet, in all cases, a dismal, gray and unresponsive ground is the incomprehensible template against which they occur, not throwing themselves into relief so much as providing a necessary obscurity to their outlines, making them bearable, even possible (making them hard of impossible for we who indulge in them to speak of in any terms save the sexual, even as they are, in their actuality, wholly social), in a world that largely denies they exist.

which is to say that the mad man has its elements of elegy for the cruising scene too, though the action (structure?) of the novel is weirdly orthogonal to that.

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Man, I'm just finishing up The Mad Man(took me 5 months wtf?! I've been busy). Insane book, really, but Delany really knows how to challenge and reward I think, just as you're becoming insensitive to some bloke shitting all over another blokes face whilst a group of other guys are jacking off all over the guy who is getting shitted on, he throws you a bone. Fantastic.

― historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 14 August 2011 13:24 (11 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems like a really weird way to be reading this. ('that movie deep throat really manages challenge and reward the viewer, it's amazing how much you want to get to the end of the next blowjob..')

(weird how the rhythms of pornography are still deducible, compelling even if it's pornography you find (abhorrent? not to your taste? well, maybe reading some-hundred pages of it is enough to make it more the latter and not the former) -- either that or i secretly long to have homeless new yorkers of the 80s excrete in my mouth -- delany's reliance on parentheticals is both contagious and compelling.

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i read this over like 72 hours, which is the quickest i've read anything of equivalent .. length, density .. in a while.

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want to say something about the intersection of different narrative styles (campus novel, detective novel) with the novel's pornotopia, also the different characters as different biographical displacements of delany, also the enjoyably (deliberately?) stilted moments of dialogue common to all delany's 'serious' work. on the other hand, don't want to burn myself out when i will probably start in the valley of the nest of spiders tomorrow

I found a used paperback of The Mad Man in a store in Gainesville in 2001. In the SF section, natch. brought it home and discovered a $20 bill in the middle. Like you, thomp, I couldn't put the book down and read it in the course of a few days. There was an element of tourism I'm sure, as a straight male on the vanilla end of the spectrum, but that was far from the only driver. It really is an amazing book.

Mad ol' me, have an unread copy of this since since '07. Will get onto it ASAP.

on the other hand, i flicked ahead to see quite how long the first truck stop bathroom sex scene in ...spiders goes on for, and put the book down, and haven't picked it up again yet.

https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/titlecovers.cgi?68754

YPBG - [Hidden text. Click to view]

Wouldn't, um, Chip himself disagree with you on this last point?

Actually, no! He hated a great majority of scifi and fantasy

Or, hates

or at least the typical plotting devices etc of the genres

....and I'm back after just spending a wasted minute or two checking on– and then immediately forgetting– the contents difference between Driftglass and Aye, and Gomorrah

Feel like you are misrepresenting his take, since his criticism usually seeks to find ways to discuss sf on its own terms rather than just consign most of it to Sturgeon's 90% Off Junkyard.

Anyway, it seems to me almost every possible position on him has been enumerated outside of and especially inside of ILX, on this very thread and related ones.

Boils down to: clearly he is some kind of beloved big-hearted genius, but because of his various stylistic tics ymmv as to which novels and stories you like or whether perhaps you mostly prefer just to stick to his criticism.

dow, I believe the concept of Slow Glass comes from Bob Shaw's "Light of Other Days," unless there is another Slow Glass, perhaps on the far side of the Jonbar Point.

Boils down to: clearly he is some kind of beloved big-hearted genius, but because of his various stylistic tics ymmv as to which novels and stories you like or whether perhaps you mostly prefer just to stick to his criticism.

true!

Philosophical conversations can be a vital resource of stories---Dusty does it---but in most of Delany's Nebula-winning apprentice fiction, it's more of a derail. Fiction aside, a lot of the musings, lectures etc. just aren't that interesting in themselves.
There is, at the end of a fairly groovy, slick-sexy cultural tour, a fab reveal of a species' aspiring backstory, backdrop---the end. It's a fine idea, but even with the new power of suggestive hindsight we've been gifted, it's not that discernible as part of the preceding story; we just have to take the narrator's word that they're related, that the "reveal" is more than a ruse in and of what we've already seen is a very sales-consumption-dedicated culture (okay, that one kind of works, come to think of it).

(Sorry for "gifted," but I was being facetious.)

Back in 2015 I started reading Dhalgren. Since this is the Delany-devoted thread I'll copy here what I wrote at the time on I Love Books. I stand by it. I think I gave the book a fair reading, but won't bother defending it from anyone who wants to disagree with it:

Aimless wrote this on thread Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall 2015 ist. What Are You Reading Now? on board I Love Books on Nov 10, 2015

So, I've read about 100 pages of Dhalgren and I've seen enough of it to see what Delany finds interesting about his story and hopes to put across to the reader, me.

The overall effect Delany appears to want is a kind of texture. By this I mean he pays loving attention to the surfaces of things and describes them at length and with many convolutions. Surfaces of objects, buildings, landscapes, people, seem to occupy a good 90% of every paragraph. Actions are described in terms of surfaces, too.

The prose is furiously stylized in most of the book so far, so that all these surfaces are deliberately detached from one another and form no mental picture other than a confused jumble. Delany also seems to subscribe to the school of thought that if you pepper your prose with enough highly colored verbs, you'll impress your reader with your dynamism, even if they can't puzzle out what imagery your verbs are meant to convey, and your dynamism is in the service of little discernable activity.

By contrast, his protagonist is extremely blurry. He has almost no thoughts and his few thoughts are vague and disconnected. He is a drifter and his entire persona is so effaced and vagrant as to be nearly nonexistant. No one he meets is more than a crayon drawing of a person.

I 'get it' that this effect is what Delany was seeking. I am meant to be adrift in this book. He is dropping hints like breadcrumbs, one every half dozen pages, sprinkled in among the long disjointed descriptions of a chaotic, drifting world, that may eventually assemble themselves into some kind of a story. But story is not what interests Delany. It is the texture of this world adrift and how to write it into the reader's mind.

The one thing this book has done admirably so far has been to remind me strongly of my own drifting years, in poverty, not quite homeless, but living on the very edges of organized society, among equally poor, confused and undirected drifters, in the waning days of the hippie era, the era when this book was written. Delany nails it. This book is what that hippie-bohemian backwater twilight world felt like.

It's not enough. The texture is right, but everything else has been subsumed to the demands of that single effect. My mass market paperback copy is almost 900 pages long. In 100 pages so little has happened (other than some overwritten sex scenes, which like all sex scenes that extend beyond two paragraphs, are just head-shakingly awful) that I have no patience for assembling whatever tiny scraps of story Delany buries amid his endless textural and stylistic effects.

I wouldn't say Dhalgren is badly written. More that it is written specifically to do a couple of things very well, but unless you are the rare reader who can't get enough of this sort of highly impressionistic and paradoxically static prose, those couple of things do not justify my reading 900 pages of it.

Came back to say that the reaction of more than one person last week was "I mostly enjoyed this, but kept reading and reading and asking myself 'When are they going to get to the nova?''"

Sometimes I think people here are too invested in the idea that every book needs to be for them.

Prism, Mirror, Lens

If your mind has a mind to, maybe check one or even two of the threads about said book--both started by thomp, come back thomp:
dhalgren
STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, then DUNE and now, the major novel of love and terror at the end of time: DHALGREN, by Samuel Delany, four-time Nebula award winner (ilx book club #Y8554)

I don't remember what I said about it, but I know that I enjoyed reading it in the early 80s, though wasn't surprised to further read that author and come back to it every now and then between other things, and now I wonder if it might be best read or re-read the same way, maybe at random, for a while anyway (maybe I'll try that). It's where I got off the bus (after digging Nova and Triton), missing a lot of good stuff, but now I'm starting to catch up, slowly.

author *had* come back to it

Did you finish it, Aimless?

A: those couple of things do not justify my reading 900 pages of it.

Oops, sorry I didn't finish reading your post (not because it was boring; yours never are).