What are you worried about?
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:42 (five years ago) link
You shouldn't have to serve anyone at a restaurant that you don't want to.
― Joe Gargan (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:44 (five years ago) link
hmm
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:58 (five years ago) link
maybe if you could serve them in another room or something
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:59 (five years ago) link
a distinct but altogether equivalent room, for the people you might not otherwise want to serve
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:00 (five years ago) link
other than the person being rejected being too inebriated/naked the only stories I've ever heard of refusing to serve someone at a restaurant have been white people refusing service to people of colour in rural areas
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:00 (five years ago) link
how naked is "too naked"
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
"no shirt/no shoes = no service" seems pretty common
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
sorry m8 youve taken off more garments thans good for you m8
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
has sir maybe been stripping elsewhere tonight before sir arrived here hmmm?
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:02 (five years ago) link
lmao
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:03 (five years ago) link
i refused to serve somebody the other day because he's the guy who invariably leaves a huge dump in the toilet and then hangs around outside keeping an eye on the bathroom door waiting for reactions. cut him a fuckofalot more slack than i woulda cut sarah huckabee sanders i assure you.
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:18 (five years ago) link
lol
― Joe Gargan (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:33 (five years ago) link
What about a labret?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SardonicRadiantKusimanse-max-1mb.gif
― how's life, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:46 (five years ago) link
Least worrisome of this category but still a little worrisome.
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:59 (five years ago) link
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:18 PM (fifty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
My uncool conservative belief is that this person should be caged like an ape.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 19:16 (five years ago) link
Actually, that's unfair. I don't believe apes should be caged. Just that guy.
This isn't really a "belief" so much as an unresolved question or doubt, but I'm not sure whether the left has a coherent take on immigration. I don't really think open borders are feasible (I guess that part is a belief), and short of that I don't understand what the left "ask" or goal is on immigration beyond just opposing abhorrent policies like family separation.
Also, I find arguments like "no one is illegal on stolen land" to be evasive and disingenuous. That argument only has weight in the abstract. In reality no one seems to be interested in reintegrating california and texas into mexico or in ceding the United States to native american tribes to what does that actually mean?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:32 (five years ago) link
I'm not sure whether anyone has a coherent take on immigration
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:36 (five years ago) link
I get what you're saying, man alive.
Of course you will find open borders enthusiasts here (and elsewhere on the left). But it's not like the only rhetorical spaces are "turmpian evil" and "open borders":
- expanded legal immigration- more permissive asylum policy- more temporary worker programs- in the meantime, no detention of asylum seekers- for fuck's sake, reunite the people separated so far
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:41 (five years ago) link
We also need a sane way to deal with the millions of people who are already living and working here, keeping our economy afloat with their underpaid labor.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:44 (five years ago) link
oh yeah and
- speedier resolution of asylum claims- expedited processes for families traveling together- support, not demonization, of unaccompanied minors- speedy path to citizenship for undocumented persons without criminal records
That's a bunch of things that aren't open borders or even -gasp- amnesty.
xp also Moodles otm
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:46 (five years ago) link
those all sound good
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
we should also do amnesty tho
― 21st savagery fox (m bison), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:55 (five years ago) link
Also by “open borders” most non-anarchists like myself probably mean something like “legal permanent residence on arrival for anyone who asks who isn’t a violent criminal, also amnesty”
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 17:14 (five years ago) link
Not like landfall citizenship.
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 17:15 (five years ago) link
what if that means 100 million new arrivals?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:33 (five years ago) link
ppl say they want speedier resolution of asylum claims ime they say they want speedy approval of asylum claims
s'like death penalty appeals so tis
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:40 (five years ago) link
ime what they want is, obv
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
100 million more ppl sounds fine, who cares, we have lots of cities that need upzoning
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
oh im ok with it personally but just saying
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:42 (five years ago) link
God imagine you'm living peacefully in North America and then suddenly all these foreigners turn up uninvited
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:44 (five years ago) link
Multiculturalism gone mad... in the 17th century.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:46 (five years ago) link
thrilling point lads
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:50 (five years ago) link
No point at all, just thinking how terrible it would be
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link
I mean i know we've got colonialism sorted, thx
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:53 (five years ago) link
The history of colonialism offers a rich vein of things to talk & think about. It's a perennial cartoon: Native Americans stand on the shore seeing ships fulla pilgrims or whatever and saying "if we refuse to educate their children, maybe they'll leave" etc.
But overstressing the precedent has rhetorical risks. Some right-wing choad who thinks he's clever is eventually going to say "yeah and look how that turned out - genocide and displacement, just what we want to avoid."
It remains (perhaps depressingly) the case that many/most current immigrants are arriving not to conquer and enslave but to clean toilets, pick crops, mow lawns....
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link
Darragh, point taken. That said, if one holds my point #2 (vastly more permissive asylum policy) together with #6 (speedier adjudication) I would hope you get the same thing: speedier approval, right?
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
the tension man alive points out is prob a real thing, even our boy denmark is super creepy about migrants. i favour open borders idealistically on both utilitarian and ethical grounds but in practice the real constraint on immigration is the political backlash it creates in the host country
When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law. Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
― flopson, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:22 (five years ago) link
wild
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:24 (five years ago) link
you need spaces for people in housing, transit, schools, you need social services, you need businesses to serve them, there actually are logical reasons for controlling at a minimum the pace of immigration
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 20:17 (five years ago) link
wouldn't it be more humane to provide transportation for everyone to whatever country they want to go to, instead of treating as exception those who suffer through horrifying trips to get to the places they want to go to? that would entail giving everyone all over the world the choice of where to live, paid for by the countries they want to go to.
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 20:59 (five years ago) link
yes but y'know I worry we're making this the cool fully automated luxury gay space communism thread and not the uncool conservative opinions thread now
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:00 (five years ago) link
meant my post as more a rabbit–duck illusion kinda thing tbh
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:03 (five years ago) link
Okay so where is the cool fully automated gay space communism thread? Is it a 77 thing?
― derp (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:24 (five years ago) link
you need spaces for people in housing, transit, schools, you need social services, you need businesses to serve them
these are arguments for controlling the birth rate
population is growing much slower in say the UK now than it was in the C19th
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:25 (five years ago) link
You're right about there needing to be infrastructure etc., but it's worth noting that there's plenty of room.
http://ecpmlangues.u-strasbg.fr/civilization/geography/maps/US%20Population%20density,%202010%20570x361.png
I think an advocate of dramatically increased legal immigration could say that the housing, transit, schools, social services are a little bit of a "if you build it, they will come" situation, as well as chicken/egg. I mean, in 1887 none of those things existed in Oklahoma. Didn't take long.
Also: Making housing, transit, schools, and social services happen? Sounds like, um, I dunno, JOBS. Which I thought conservatives liked.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:37 (five years ago) link
The following facts remain stubbornly adjacent:
- The places with the most room are the most conservative and least receptive to immigrants.- New arrivals are much more comfortable going to the most populous places (with good reason!).- That said, having new immigrants transform (dare I say, settle?) a rural region - making it more populous, dynamic, and diverse - would be great for them both if it were welcomed bilaterally.
I don't have good answers for those questions - or, at least, not suited to this thread.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:47 (five years ago) link
Popular methods at modernizing gender in language are an inconsistent mess aiming in all directions at once and only monolinguals think that there are no reasons to criticize those methods except deliberately wanting to exclude people.
― Three Word Username, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 08:20 (five years ago) link
a lot of what's framed as the "refugee problem" or the "immigrant problem" is actually a xenophobia problem - this is most apparent in america but it's true everywhere and i'm amused at people who think countries should "moderate" their immigration policies to placate xenophobes, as if such a thing were possible. that's not to say there aren't serious legitimate problems that come with mass numbers of displaced persons, but those numbers, particularly as the effects of climate change take hold, are going to increase rather than decrease. people need to make their peace with mass societal disruption, with mass death, or, more likely, with both.
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 12:16 (five years ago) link