A Special Election for Rediscovered Players By MURRAY CHASS
The population of the Hall of Fame is about to grow in a historic way. With an announcement tomorrow, the Hall may gain 10 to 20 members. In the Hall's 70-year history, the largest induction class in any year was the 11 the veterans committee elected in 1946.
At a meeting today in Tampa, Fla., a committee of 12 scholars and historians will vote on a list of 39 Negro leagues and pre-Negro leagues players, managers, executives and owners to determine if any merit inclusion in the Hall of Fame.
As with other Hall elections, a candidate will need 75 percent of the votes to be elected, and no one knows how many of the 39 candidates will receive at least nine votes. But the feeling among people who are familiar with the list is that 10 to 20 could be elected.
Most intriguing among that number is Effa Manley, who would be the first woman elected to the Hall. Co-owner with her husband of the Newark Eagles, Manley operated the team on a daily basis from 1936 to 1947. Cum Posey, the principal owner of the legendary Homestead Grays, once said that the league as a whole could learn from Manley.
Posey is also a strong candidate for election, as are catcher Biz Mackey, pitcher John Donaldson, first baseman-outfielder Mule Suttles and J. L. Wilkinson, the white longtime owner of the Kansas City Monarchs.
Others given a good chance of election are pitchers Ray Brown, Chet Brewer and José Méndez; Sol White, infielder, manager, owner (and writer); Dick Redding, pitcher, outfielder and manager; shortstop Dick Lundy; and Alex Pompez, executive and owner.
Minnie Minoso, an outfielder who also played in the major leagues, and Buck O'Neil, a first baseman who later coached in the majors, are the only living candidates on the list. If one or both are elected, they would represent the new group of Hall of Famers at the induction ceremony July 30 in Cooperstown, N.Y.
"This is an effort that is 30 years too late," said Fay Vincent, the former baseball commissioner and nonvoting chairman of the committee. "This should have been done when a lot of them were alive."
Vincent credited Joe Garagiola Sr. with the genesis of the idea: a Cooperstown weekend in 1991 when 75 Negro leaguers were welcomed to the Hall and given special medals.
"Until then," said Vincent, who as commissioner aided living Negro leaguers, "there was little focus on the old Negro leagues players. It was a great weekend."
During that weekend, Vincent apologized for baseball's exclusion of black players. No one had ever apologized to them.
Eighteen players among the 26 in the Hall of Fame gained entry on their Negro leagues credentials, 10 elected by a special committee and 8 by the veterans committee. The group includes Cool Papa Bell, Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Monte Irvin and Buck Leonard.
About five years ago, Vincent said, the Hall initiated a study to find out more about old black players who were not enshrined, wanting to learn if others should be. Vincent saluted Bud Selig, the current commissioner, for giving $250,000 of baseball's money to finance a statistical study
But, Vincent said, "The statistical data was very meager." So the Hall established a committee of experts to determine whether any players had been overlooked. Unlike the writers' annual vote, the committee members will not be limited to 10 players.
Frank Robinson, manager of the Washington Nationals and a Hall of Famer, will speak to the committee today on standards for election. He didn't have much to say the other day about his appearance and the committee's job.
"I think it's a good thing," he said. But he said he had no idea how many candidates might be elected, would not speculate about which ones would be elected and wouldn't say how he thought the Hall of Famers would feel about the election of a large number of old players.
"I'd rather not get into that before the vote," Robinson said. "I don't think that would be fair to the voters."
Vincent avoided predictions, too, but he related a story about one of the players he believes would be elected: Donaldson, an early 20th century left-handed pitcher, who had a career record of 262-94 for a .736 winning percentage.
According to Vincent, John McGraw once said of Donaldson, "If I could dunk him in calamine lotion, I'd sign him."
Vincent did not hear McGraw make that comment, but he did have a conversation about Donaldson with Elden Auker, a former major league pitcher now 95 years old.
"I played against Donaldson in 1929," Vincent quoted Auker as saying. "I was in college and we played at an Arapaho Indian reservation in Kansas. I pitched against Paige and I won, 2-1. Donaldson played center field."
Before their games, Auker said, the Monarchs enjoyed showing off their skills. "Donaldson got out in center field and squatted like a catcher," Auker related. "The Monarchs had a catcher named Young, and he squatted behind home plate and they played catch from 300 feet. They threw the ball on a line. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it."
That baseball is aware of Donaldson and all black players from the Negro leagues era and earlier is largely the result of Robert W. Peterson's seminal work "Only the Ball Was White," the book that put a spotlight on the forgotten black players. Peterson was a member of the committee but was dying of lung cancer and knew he would not be able to attend the Tampa meeting.
Jeff Idelson, a Hall official, said Peterson mailed his ballot. The envelope was postmarked Feb. 10, Peterson died the next day. The envelope arrived at the Hall on Feb. 13.
"When we tally the votes at the end of the meeting, we'll open his ballot and include it," Idelson said.
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 February 2006 14:15 (fifteen years ago) link
― Jimmy Mod: The Prettiest Flower In The Pond (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 27 February 2006 15:18 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 February 2006 15:39 (fifteen years ago) link
― Jimmy Mod: The Prettiest Flower In The Pond (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 27 February 2006 15:47 (fifteen years ago) link
Candidate bios, etc, here:
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 February 2006 15:53 (fifteen years ago) link
Current members of the BBHoF who were Negro Leaguers.
# Satchel Paige, pitcher# Josh Gibson, catcher# Buck Leonard, first baseman# Martin Dihigo, second baseman# Judy Johnson, third baseman# Pop Lloyd, shortstop# Cool Papa Bell, leftfield# Oscar Charleston, centerfield# Monte Irvin, rightfield
White HoFers Elected betwen 1935 (start of the HoF) and 1945 (The yeah Jackie Robinson broke in and the effective end of the HoF-caliber NL player). There are executives in this list, that I didn't bother to delete.
Ty Cobb Walter Johnson Christy Mathewson Babe Ruth Honus Wagner Morgan Bulkeley Ban Johnson Nap Lajoie Connie Mack John McGraw Tris Speaker George Wright Cy Young Pete Alexander Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Cap Anson Eddie Collins Charlie Comiskey Candy Cummings Buck Ewing Lou Gehrig Willie Keeler Charles Radbourn George Sisler Al Spalding Rogers Hornsby Kenesaw Mountain Landis Roger Bresnahan Dan Brouthers Fred Clarke Jimmy Collins Ed Delahanty Hugh Duffy Hughie Jennings King Kelly Jim O'Rourke Wilbert Robinson
If we acccept the pretense that the BBHoF should only include the 1-2% of all MLB/NL players of a given time frame, then it seems doubtful that there would be some 20-odd NL players that would make it in when taking into account the diluted skill level wrt pitching and etc. Now, granted, this is basically the same argument that ppl will be making for sluggers of the 1990's.
So in summation, with a maximum of 20 players (the VAST majority of them from the NL)... baseball has probably capped out it's HoF-worthy NLers for all time... before they all pass on, which is admirable.
― Jimmy Mod: The Prettiest Flower In The Pond (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 27 February 2006 16:02 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 February 2006 19:28 (fifteen years ago) link
― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 February 2006 19:43 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 February 2006 20:02 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 14:56 (fifteen years ago) link
― Jimmy Mod: The Prettiest Flower In The Pond (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Tuesday, 28 February 2006 15:42 (fifteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 2 August 2006 17:19 (fifteen years ago) link
― Rage, Resentment, Spleen (Dr Morbius), Monday, 4 January 2010 15:58 (eleven years ago) link
Torii dropping THE TRUTH
In the report, Hunter was quoted as saying: “People see dark faces out there, and the perception is that they’re African-American. They’re not us. They’re impostors. Even people I know come up and say: ‘Hey, what color is Vladimir Guerrero(notes)? Is he a black player?’ I say, ‘Come on, he’s Dominican. He’s not black.’ …“As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us. It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It’s like, ‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’ … I’m telling you, it’s sad,” he said.
“As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us. It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It’s like, ‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’ … I’m telling you, it’s sad,” he said.
Black players accounted for 10.2 percent of major leaguers in 2008, the most since the 1995 season, according to the University of Central Florida’s Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports.
i'm now curious what the og american born african-american percentage might be
― sanskrit, Thursday, 11 March 2010 05:16 (eleven years ago) link
"I keep saying a lot of times, in 10 more years American people are going to need a visa to play this game because we're going to take over. We're going to," Guillen said.
― Andy K, Thursday, 11 March 2010 13:42 (eleven years ago) link
new: the Seamheads.com Negro Leagues Database
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 September 2011 23:02 (nine years ago) link
No Jackie Robinson thread (better here than the John Rocker thread with Jackie's name in the title)...Sixty-fifth anniversary of his debut; I knew the Jays had a JR day planned, but I hadn't given any thought as to why (nor did I realize his debut coincided with the anniversary of Lincoln's death).
― clemenza, Sunday, 15 April 2012 17:01 (nine years ago) link
Seamheads has added 1924 to their Negro Leagues database.
Heavy Johnson is new to me.
― crazy uncle in the attic (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 21 October 2012 20:40 (eight years ago) link
Yeah I feel like I'd remember that name.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 21 October 2012 20:53 (eight years ago) link
Never knew that there were "best available information" Negro League stats on Baseball Reference. Josh Gibson's career box isn't too bad:
.907 slugging average in 1937--must have been into the PEDs.
― clemenza, Monday, 28 January 2013 04:09 (eight years ago) link
The other 15 men who integrated the MLB teams of the '40s and '50s... like the 1955 Yankees and the 1959 Red Sox.
― images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 19:51 (seven years ago) link
Nice to see my old 'pal' Monte Irvin (I was on a Cuba baseball tour with him 11 years ago) is still sharp and giving interviews. He'll be 96 in a couple weeks.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 10 February 2015 20:59 (six years ago) link
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 25 February 2015 15:22 (six years ago) link
a month younger than Jackie R.
We were at a night game in Havana at the big stadium, where Monte had played in '47, and he grabbed his crutch midgame, stood up, and took his stance with it.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 25 February 2015 20:23 (six years ago) link
Ahead of this weekend's back-to-back Detroit dates with his band the Raconteurs, rock star Jack White played a charity baseball game at the historic Hamtramck Stadium. The event benefited the Friends of Historic Hamtramck Stadium, a group raising money to rehab the historic grounds, which are one of the few remaining Negro League ballparks in the country.
― Andy K, Friday, 12 July 2019 15:50 (two years ago) link
― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 16 August 2020 16:42 (one year ago) link
Because of a prejudiced decision made more than 50 years ago, the segregation-era circuits that featured Black players have never been counted among the official major leagues. For the first time, MLB is considering righting that wrong.
― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Monday, 17 August 2020 15:22 (one year ago) link
Commissioner Manfred announced today that @MLB is officially elevating the Negro Leagues to “Major League” status. Culminating the centennial celebration of the founding of the Negro Leagues, MLB is proud to highlight the contributions of the pioneers who played from 1920-1948. pic.twitter.com/hkStF1UC0H— MLB Communications (@MLB_PR) December 16, 2020
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 16:03 (nine months ago) link
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 16:04 (nine months ago) link
wow! does that mean josh gibson is the official HR king now?
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 19:24 (nine months ago) link
i think they still need to find documentation (box scores or something) for all his homers, but . . . possibly
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 19:34 (nine months ago) link
a contrary view: https://theundefeated.com/features/mlb-elevating-the-status-of-negro-leagues-is-the-problem-not-the-solution
also saw someone asking if mlb will now be offering pensions to the handful of negro leaguers who are still alive
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:01 (nine months ago) link
seems like the stats thing will be complicated.
Since Negro League seasons were typically much shorter than MLB seasons, the sport’s career records for “counting” stats — such as Barry Bonds’s 762 home runs and Pete Rose’s 4,256 hits — are largely safe, if only because top Negro Leaguers are credited with having played between 1,000 and 1,600 career games, as opposed to, say, Rose’s 3,562.For example, Gibson, who spent much of his career in Washington playing for the Homestead Grays and is considered the Negro Leagues’ most prolific slugger, is credited on his Hall of Fame plaque with hitting “almost 800 home runs.” Many of them, however, were on barnstorming tours and are not part of the official record, as determined by the Seamheads researchers, who credit him with only 238 in Negro League play — still most among Negro Leaguers.The all-time MLB rankings for “rate” statistics, such as batting average, on the other hand, could see a wholesale rewriting. Gibson’s career batting average of .365, for example, would rank second only to Cobb’s .366 and — along with Jud Wilson’s .359, Charleston’s .350 and Turkey Stearns’s .348 — would push Babe Ruth’s .342 out of the top 10. Gibson’s career slugging percentage of .690 would edge out Ruth’s .6897 as the highest in major league history.Single-season stats would also be affected, with Gibson’s .441 batting average in 1943 supplanting Hugh Duffy’s .440 for the 1897 Boston Beaneaters of the National League as the highest in a single season in history. Ted Williams, who hit .406 for the Boston Red Sox in 1941, would lose his status as the last player to hit .400 in a single season.
For example, Gibson, who spent much of his career in Washington playing for the Homestead Grays and is considered the Negro Leagues’ most prolific slugger, is credited on his Hall of Fame plaque with hitting “almost 800 home runs.” Many of them, however, were on barnstorming tours and are not part of the official record, as determined by the Seamheads researchers, who credit him with only 238 in Negro League play — still most among Negro Leaguers.
The all-time MLB rankings for “rate” statistics, such as batting average, on the other hand, could see a wholesale rewriting. Gibson’s career batting average of .365, for example, would rank second only to Cobb’s .366 and — along with Jud Wilson’s .359, Charleston’s .350 and Turkey Stearns’s .348 — would push Babe Ruth’s .342 out of the top 10. Gibson’s career slugging percentage of .690 would edge out Ruth’s .6897 as the highest in major league history.
Single-season stats would also be affected, with Gibson’s .441 batting average in 1943 supplanting Hugh Duffy’s .440 for the 1897 Boston Beaneaters of the National League as the highest in a single season in history. Ted Williams, who hit .406 for the Boston Red Sox in 1941, would lose his status as the last player to hit .400 in a single season.
looks like mlb + elias are going to do some research to determine what goes in the record books
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:42 (nine months ago) link
Didn't have time to read the Ringer piece this morning, but after "Good job," the messiness of records was the first thing that occurred to me. Interested to hear Hank Aaron's thoughts.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 23:18 (nine months ago) link
Not that something like this would distract his attention from COVID, but Trump still has a month to issue an executive order that all white-guy baseball records must remain standing.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 23:22 (nine months ago) link
b-ref updates: https://www.baseball-reference.com/negro-leagues-are-major-leagues.shtml
(this makes dustin ackley the 20,000th major league player)
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 15 June 2021 16:53 (three months ago) link