hall of fame, next vote...

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=halloffame/roundtable/041222

how do you rate the arguments contained herein?

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:29 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Lee Smith and Bert Blylevyn were Hall of Famers. Morris, Sandberg, Sutter and Goosage have much better arguments in their favor, but of the lot only Sandberg has to me to have really unimpeachable arguments (i.e. he was clearly the best 2nd basemen of his era and one of the best 2nd basemen ever.) Morris was a monster and at his best (which he was for a large part of 80s) he was one of the best pitchers in baseball, but his numbers aren't incredible and even though that shouldn't matter, it will. Sutter burned out too quick, only seven really great years even though when he was at his height he probably had more impact on any given game than maybe any of these guys. Gossage was around FOREVER and he was also amazing, but I'm not sure he was really as good as Fingers, Eck or Sutter and if he was as good how long he was. That hurts him a little, but really he should be in the hall. I think relievers belong in the Hall, BUT I think they really have to have great #s and either hang around forever at a really high level (like Fingers, Gossage and Riviera) or have had a really respectable career as a starter to boot (like Eckersley).

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:50 (sixteen years ago) link

For the record I am glad that Blyleven didn't win 300 games, because his "automatic" inclusion on that basis would be even more ridiculous than Sutton's. You get some points for longevity, but the hall really should be reserved for players who were at some point GREAT, not players who just managed to play pretty good for a long period of time.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Here is the link for anyone who hasn't read last years HOF thread.

Hall of Fame Ballot 2004

Bruce Sutter was the pitcher that brought back and popularized the split finger fastball, which considering how popular a pitch it has become in the past 25 years, it is something that he should get some credit.

"Boggs, for instance, is not a classic Hall of Famer, in my eyes, despite his 3,000 hits; he was a very, very good player, but not a dominant player."

Appearantly Buster forgets the mid 80s when Boggs career batting average was at .355 or so, he won 5 of 6 batting titles and his on base percentage was at a SABERMETRIC stoner high. He also won two of those batting titles by more than twenty points! After age 32, he only once hit over .330, but a bunch of players peak around that time in their career. Boggs average with runners on base and the bases loaded is also off the chart.

Oddly enough, I don't think Boggs was quite the same player after that whole scandal with Margo Adams broke. I think opposing teams quit putting chicken on the buffet when Boston was in town or something.

I think it would be interesting to know how many hits Boggs would have put up if he would have been brought up in 81, when he was 21 instead of 24. Boggs always claimed that he was just a good a hitter at 21, but since he played 1b was always behind Yaz in the depth chart and never got the chance to play in the bigs until he learned how to play 3b. He didn't get called up in 84 until they were wracked with injuries, then he hit over .400 for a month or so and stayed in the lineup from then on.

I grew up mostly watching NL baseball, but Boggs was one of my favorite players to follow and watch hit. Maybe not as fearful as some of the great power hitters of his day, but like Tony Gwynn, he was one of those hitters that seemed to dumbfound pitchers on how to get them out.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:02 (sixteen years ago) link

The Page 2 discussion was really good.

Earl OTM about Boggs, the guy was an offensive powerhouse.

It's the usual BS with guys like Sandberg -- 2B and 3B are underrepresented positions in the HoF because their offensive numbers aren't at the level of 1B or OF, they're not remembered for being "flashy" like SS, and they're not "on-the-field leaders" like C. Sandberg is a no-brainer.

Gossage should be in, I hear the arguments for Sutter that he wasn't great for as long as some other guys, but a) he was dominant for about the same length of time that Mo Rivera has been (and a lot of people consider him a future HoF player -- yeah, I know Mo's postseason performance is part of that, but still), and b) he INVENTED a pitch, which is a damned significant contribution to the game.

The Blyleven arguments boil down to the fact that he WAS great, but was pitching for bad teams. I think people are wising up to the idea that there are guys like Sutton who are in only because they pitched for good teams.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Rob Neyer's done some great columns on Blyleven, I don't have the time to look for them now ... maybe someone else has a link to them?

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Rivera's been dominant for longer than Sutter at this point (by two more years), MIR. And Rivera wouldn't even be mentioned as a future HOFer if it weren't for the postseason stuff.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:04 (sixteen years ago) link

The funny thing about Morris, as I recall, is that he always seemed to pitch just good enough to stay ahead. If his team had 7 runs he'd give up 6 and if his boys only managed 1 run he'd throw a shut-out. It was the weirdest thing.

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:07 (sixteen years ago) link

The 1984 Tigers never get much call when they talk about great all-time teams, that team didn't really have any "superstars" but they were really deep and talented team. I think Sparky Anderson platooned at about half of the positions. Lance Parrish, Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker all three also had really good careers and don't get quite the props that they deserve.

That season I remember seeing Jack Morris throw a no hitter on TV against the White Sox as it was the game of the week Saturday Afternoon on NBC. I can remember my dad was working in the garage and coming in every so often to check it out how the game was going, as he joked after the first inning or so wouldn't it be funny if he threw a no hitter.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:42 (sixteen years ago) link

>the hall really should be reserved for players who were at some point GREAT, not players who just managed to play pretty good for a long period of time.

But if that were the case, there'd be 80 or 90 members, except for what, 240 now?

By the established standard, Blyleven belongs. If you're "very good" for long enough (BB was in the top 10 in league Adjusted ERA 11 times from '71-89), that's worth 5-6 years of dominance (the peak vs career, Koufax vs Spahn argument). There was some research I read in the last year that showed Bert didn't suffer quite as much from his teammates' inadequacy as generally thought, but it wasn't enough for him to drop off my "ballot."

>The funny thing about Morris, as I recall, is that he always seemed to pitch just good enough to stay ahead.

"I know not seems..." I'll try to find a link for you, Thermo, but someone recently did a study of Morris's career in this regard, and it showed *no* special ability to pitch that way. He threw 1150 fewer innings than Blyleven and his career ERA was only 5% better than the league's (Bert 18%) -- that's not a negligible difference. Morris had a good career, but not a HOFer.

I'd vote for Gossage on greatness and longevity, Sutter on peak and pioneer role, close but unconvinced for Lee Smith. Rest of ballot: Boggs, Sandberg, and TRAMMELL, most deserving SS of that era below Ozzie. Dawson and Rice fall short.

It's sad that the Vets Committee process has obviously been fucked up to the point where they may never elect anyone, as I fear Ron Santo will die before his deserved induction.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link

I'll try to find a link for you, Thermo, but someone recently did a study of Morris's career in this regard, and it showed *no* special ability to pitch that way
Well even if that's true & it debunks my theory - it at least means someone else has noticed!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 15:32 (sixteen years ago) link

"But if that were the case, there'd be 80 or 90 members, except for what, 240 now?"

I'm not sure that would be worst thing ever actually, but my problem with Blyleven is that during his time he was never really recognized as being one of the best in the game. He wasn't voted to All Star games, he didn't make Cy Young top 10s, he wasn't talked about as being a great pitcher. And I think that hurts him. NOW if the reason why none of those things occurred was that he toiled entirely in obscurity for shitty teams and if he'd been on the Dodgers, the Red Sox, the Yankees and the Reds for those years instead that there would be a complete about face and he'd be considered among the best pitchers of his era, well all I can say geez that's bad luck for Bert, but I think that's a hard argument to make conclusively.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 16:17 (sixteen years ago) link

That Bert was named to only 2 All-Star teams just shows how debased that is as a criterion.

MIR, here's a 4-year-old Neyer column on Blyleven... Alex, I think it's conclusive:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/1213/943398.html

And he later wrote:

"Blyleven was, over the course of his career, a better pitcher than Ted Lyons or Early Wynn or Bob Lemon or Red Ruffing or Rube Waddell or Red Faber or Catfish Hunter or Lefty Gomez, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame... It's not Blyleven's fault that he generally pitched for unspectacular teams that played in hitter's parks. In fact, Blyleven pitched for 22 seasons, and in only four of those 22 seasons did Blyleven's home ballpark favor the pitcher, statistically..."

And to appeal to the butch old-timers: 242 complete games!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:41 (sixteen years ago) link

>he didn't make Cy Young top 10s

Four of 'em (third twice).

http://baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:47 (sixteen years ago) link

When you start out your argument claiming that Blyleven was a better pitcher than Sutton (who wasn't even close to a great pitcher and doesn't deserve to be in the Hall IMO) and Ryan (who was a complete statistical anomaly and does deserve to be in the Hall for that, but was also not a great pitcher) you've already undercut your case tremendously, Rob.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:58 (sixteen years ago) link

Here's the BP article about Jack Morris that attempts to determine where Morris had the ability to pitch to the score:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815

It concludes that there is no evidence to suggest that he could.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:59 (sixteen years ago) link

to determine *whether* Morris had the ability to pitch to the score

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:59 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm not sure how many pitchers in history meet your def of "great," Alex -- let's deal with the Hall you have, rather than the one you wish to have -- but the argument he makes is that Blyleven was better than several HOF pitchers, and comparable to *many* others. And he was.

That's the article I meant, MIR, thanks.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Alex, to be fair to Neyer, he didn't bring Sutton and Ryan into the discussion. He was responding to the examples of Sutton and Ryan as mentioned in the reader's letter.

I think he's written a couple of other columns on Blyleven, maybe I can find them ...

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:13 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks for the link.

Those are some mind-numbing stats!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:14 (sixteen years ago) link

Michael Wolverton makes the case for Blyleven:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2002/0728/1411078.html

This, and many other articles stating his HoF case are collected -- where else? -- on Blyleven's web page:

http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

xpost -- yeah, the Morris article is a bit of a numbers slog, but it's well done.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:21 (sixteen years ago) link

"I'm not sure how many pitchers in history meet your def of "great," Alex"

Enough, believe me. And I saw him compare him to two HOF pitchers, one of whom is IMO a mistake and the other who is basically in the Hall because he had a zillion strikeouts and a slew of no hitters. Compare him to Carlton or Seaver or Hunter or any of the really great pitchers from his era, if you want to make your point (that this guy is getting job) don't just claim he was "better than Don Sutton" cuz my response to that is so the fuck what.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:38 (sixteen years ago) link

getting jobbed, ahem.

That second ESPN article is much better btw and makes a pretty good case.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:40 (sixteen years ago) link

Catfish "really great"? Come now... talk about a guy who lucked out. Look at Hunter vs Blyleven (or Sutton, for that matter) and tell me how Hunter's better.

No, Bert is not Seaver or Carlton.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:58 (sixteen years ago) link

Bert's website is great btw. He should get in just for having that.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 19:04 (sixteen years ago) link

Well I didn't see Hunter, but the perenial All Star games, the Cy Young, the top 4 in Cy Young voting four times, the fact that he supposedly one of the most respected pitchers of his era, the postseason accolades, the biggest free agent coup ever for his time and the very impressive statistics kinda indicated to me that he might have been good. Obv you know better though.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 19:48 (sixteen years ago) link

All that stuff about Hunter is true, and of course that's why he got in. Looking deeper into the numbers though ... he pitched in extreme pitchers parks for his entire career, played for great teams, and generally didn't have great ERA's (he was in the top 3 three times, but never in the top 10 otherwise). He threw a lot of innings, but was overworked at a young age which is why he was washed up at 30, which is hella young for a HoF'er.

He played for fifteen years, and he had about four great years, four good years, and the rest were downright BAD. If he'd pitched for anyone other than the 70's A's and Yankees dynasties, there's no way he'd be anywhere near a serious HoF discussion.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 20:51 (sixteen years ago) link

"He threw a lot of innings, but was overworked at a young age which is why he was washed up at 30, which is hella young for a HoF'er."

See this is where I get the impression that cold-dispassionate analysis of the stats lies a little. For 5 years (71-75), Hunter was probably hands down the most feared pitcher in baseball. No he might not have been Koufax, but he was still by all accounts pretty amazing. Those five years count for more to me than 20 some odd years of just pretty good workmanlike pitching (I will admit that these breakdowns of Blyleven's stats are making a pretty case that he was better than that.) (I do have to wonder WHY if Bert was so great, he um didn't get snatched up by better teams? I mean that can't all be bad luck, right?)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:23 (sixteen years ago) link

Burt Blyleven:

Postseason Pitching


Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
1970 ALCS MIN BAL L 1 0 0.00 0-0 0 0 0 2.0 2 0 0 2
1979 NLCS PIT CIN W 1 1 1.00 1-0 0 1 0 9.0 8 1 0 9
WS PIT BAL W 2 1 1.80 1-0 0 0 0 10.0 8 2 3 4
1987 ALCS MIN DET W 2 2 4.05 2-0 0 0 0 13.3 12 6 3 9
WS MIN STL W 2 2 2.77 1-1 0 0 0 13.0 13 4 2 12
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
3 Lg Champ Series 2-1 4 3 2.59 3-0 0 1 0 24.3 22 7 3 20
2 World Series 2-0 4 3 2.35 2-1 0 0 0 23.0 21 6 5 16
5 Postseason Ser 4-1 8 6 2.47 5-1 0 1 0 47.3 43 13 8 36
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+

He didn't get many chances, but Blyleven pitched well in the playoffs and was a part of two World Series Champions.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:37 (sixteen years ago) link

I seem to remember Bert looking pretty good in the series with the Cardinals (aka the original You Don't Win If You Don't Play At Home series.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:48 (sixteen years ago) link

I do have to wonder WHY if Bert was so great, he um didn't get snatched up by better teams?

Many of his best years came before free agency, so he didn't have much choice in the matter.

Even with free agency, it's only during the last ten years or so that all the best players end up on big-market winning teams at some point, since eventually those are the only teams that can afford them. If Jaret Wright can bounce around for a while, have one good season after a slew of crappy ones, and end up with a multi-year deal from a perennial contender, then Blyleven would have ended up playing for more winning teams too, if he was playing today.

Even so, every era has a few great players who toil away in relative obscurity. Look at Bobby Abreu, or even Carlos Delgado. If Delgado goes to the Mets, maybe in 20 years people will be saying "if he was so good, why did his teams always finish in third place?"

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 22:54 (sixteen years ago) link

Nobody says that about hitters (as their stats aren't at all dependent on their team being good.) They just look at the stats and marvel that nobody noticed at the time.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 23:22 (sixteen years ago) link

I have no idea why previous subjective honors (Cy Youngs, All-Star selections) would be used as criteria for another subjective honor.

Alex, nobody's saying Hunter wasn't GOOD, just that Blyleven was better for MUCH longer, and that "good press" shouldn't be a measure of excellence. And I don't see Hunter '71-75 being "amazing" ... His most "impressive statistics" are wins (ie, having good teammates) and innings pitched (which blew out his arm, as MIR says). I think he got extra credit for the pennants and the sexy nicknames. And it's cute how you use high Cy Young finishes as relevant to Hunter, not relevant for Blyleven. (Also, I don't see Hunter's status as the first Big Splash free agent being relevant; see Marvin Miller's book for how clownishly Catfish handled that situation.)

The "cold-dispassionate analysis of the stats" is the most reliable evidence there is. Not "what you heard" (from Joe Morgan?). And it isn't so much that Blyleven toiled for bad teams (they were more often mediocre), but pitched in hitters' parks.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 26 December 2004 03:58 (sixteen years ago) link

Speaking of Marvin Miller, what are the odds of him getting in this year (the nu-Vets Committee votes this year, right?).

I hope it happens soon so that he lives to attend his own induction.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 26 December 2004 08:04 (sixteen years ago) link

blah blah blah. my opinon is better than your opinion and i have proof! blah blah blah.


otto midnight (otto midnight), Monday, 27 December 2004 07:32 (sixteen years ago) link


I generally agree, OM. HOF debates generally bore me, especially when one side is "he was MONEY" or "folks sure wrote boilerplate hosannas about him in the '70s."

It's not lookin' good for Marv, MIR -- when the Vets voted last in '03, no one came close to getting 75% ... and of the 60 votes required for election, Miller got 35. He got three FEWER votes than Walter O'Malley -- or as we call him in Brooklyn, Satan.

Miller and other non-players are on the "composite" ballot. Here's this year's players' ballot:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/veterans/2005/2005_vc_candidates.htm


The only one I'm sold on is Santo, but Dick Allen and Tony Oliva have decent cases -- as does Curt Flood for courage and legal pioneering.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 14:28 (sixteen years ago) link

Rocky Colavito was a bit like Jim Rice, he hit like he was going to the Hall until he hit his early 30s, then it was over. I have a dog eared card of his when he played in Cleveland.

Mickey Lolich won't get in the Hall, but his pitching in the 68 World Series may be the best performance ever in the fall classic by a starter. The guy out pitched Bob Gibson in Game Seven on TWO days rest. ESPN Classic was showed that game a few months back and it was great. Harry Caray was doing the play by play.

While I don't know if he is good enough player to make the hall, Al Oliver had a pretty good career and never gets put on these kind of lists.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 27 December 2004 16:38 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think it looks good for anybody to get voted in by the nu-Vets committee anytime soon ... as Morbs said, nobody came close to getting 75% last time. If they go through two or three voting years with nobody getting elected, they'll probably change the rules.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Al Oliver was just "pretty good," ie a hitter not any more suitable for enshrinement than Rusty Staub or Vada Pinson. (His top BaseballRef comparables are Steve Garvey and Bill Buckner -- same story.)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Just out of curiousity how old are you Dr Morbius?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:43 (sixteen years ago) link

Exactly 5 years younger than Jesse Orosco!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

(I suspected as much.) Anyway, I was talking with my family about Blyleven this weekend and apparently he had a reputation of not being particularly well-liked and kind of an odd duck to boot (although I'm guessing that being Dutch was probably considered totally bizarre enough for a lot of people.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Al Oliver didn't walk much

Riot Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:22 (sixteen years ago) link

I hear that a few people didn't like Ty Cobb either.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes well luckily for Cobb he was a couple of generations removed from the people who were voting on his HOF induction so his jerkiness was more anecdotal than personal.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:38 (sixteen years ago) link


Cobb's last season: 1928
Inducted into HOF: 1936

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Cobb retired in 1928 and was elected in 1936. So many of the voters would have seen him play.

My general point is that "b...b...but he was a bit of an asshole" is a criticism that's used far too often despite being irrelevant most of the time. As long as the guy didn't compromise the game of baseball (Pete Rose being the most obvious example) then I couldn't care less if he was moody and didn't get along with everybody. If he could bring it on the field, then that's the most important thing.

(xpost)

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:16 (sixteen years ago) link

It wasn't a criticism. I was just pointing out that it might be a reason why he'd been snubbed (that and of course that people are overly fixated on 300 wins, which is also not a very fair reason.) Of course, people who can't read for shit might have trouble distinguishing the two.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:21 (sixteen years ago) link

"Cobb's last season: 1928
Inducted into HOF: 1936"

Haha I need to learn to check baseballreference.com before I say stuff sometimes.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:23 (sixteen years ago) link

And I didn't say that YOU specifically were the one doing the criticising. I was saying that anyone who would withhold a HoF vote in part because they felt that player needed an attitude adjustment are themselves in need of an attitude adjustment.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:33 (sixteen years ago) link

Interesting point in the essay: Evans, Bobby Grich, and Buddy Bell were all great in the '81 strike year, any one of the three could have won the MVP won by--when they still did things like that--Rollie Fingers, and that that might have pushed him into to the HOF. I checked '94, and I don't think there was anyone where that was true; Lofton had more bWAR than Frank Thomas, but even today, I'm pretty sure Thomas would win.

clemenza, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 13:33 (four months ago) link

Source: Numerous National Baseball HOF voters have reached out to the Hall hoping to amend their ballots, removing their votes for Curt Schilling after he supported the seditious acts in Washington D.C. 2 weeks ago. HOF officials are concerned about the precedent this could set.

— M@ (@MattSpiegel670) January 21, 2021

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 22 January 2021 00:22 (three months ago) link

More like what did curt do in the last 72 hours

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 22 January 2021 00:23 (three months ago) link

Because it’s likely nothing he hasnt said before

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 22 January 2021 00:23 (three months ago) link

Like, who did they think he was?! But mainly lol. I hope they let them.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 22 January 2021 00:24 (three months ago) link

yikes

mookieproof, Friday, 22 January 2021 00:33 (three months ago) link

That's amazing. My first reaction was Thermo's above, but I guess everybody has their line (he crossed Posnanski's and Jaffe's before this). Can't remember who it was, but I read somebody a few weeks ago who said it was his last vote because he was exhausted having to wrestle with stuff like this.

clemenza, Friday, 22 January 2021 00:39 (three months ago) link

idk if he's really bowing out, but rosenthal mentioned his exhaustion with it

mookieproof, Friday, 22 January 2021 00:50 (three months ago) link

That was it. "Right now, I’m reconsidering everything, including whether I still want to vote for the Hall of Fame"--not dropping out, but considering doing so.

clemenza, Friday, 22 January 2021 00:55 (three months ago) link

I’ll take his vote

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 22 January 2021 01:05 (three months ago) link

"Character" is one of the key merits and Schilling failed that test on multiple occasions. I'm sure many of the current HoF are equally if not even more repellent than Schilling but this is an era where consequences are harder to dodge.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 22 January 2021 01:13 (three months ago) link

Curious what James thinks about this, but I think I already know the answer.

clemenza, Friday, 22 January 2021 01:46 (three months ago) link

I was thinking the announcement was on the 31st, but it's tomorrow. I wrote about Shilling on my home page. He'll probably fall short, but brace yourself for the possibility he gets in: he's just above 75% with close to half the vote on the Tracker.

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 07:41 (three months ago) link

i'm going to barf is he gets in. i wanted to go there with my kids one day when they're old enough - but it would be enough to kill that idea.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 15:16 (three months ago) link

I don't get that, Thermo. He's one guy--you can easily avoid his plaque. The bloody sock is probably already in there, as are Yawkey, Cobb, and others. Or, if nothing else, you can use his presence as what my former job likes to call the "teachable moment."

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:34 (three months ago) link

(Your second sentence, I mean--I get the first.)

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:35 (three months ago) link

I was just reading this David Schoefield post from today:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30777119/2021-baseball-hall-fame-everything-need-know-ballot-reveal-day

I think I knew about Helton's two DUI's; I didn't know about Andruw Jones' domestic violence arrest. "Character counts" is a great idea, but I don't know--do they really want to go down this road? It's so murky. (And for the nine millionth time, I'll add that whatever issues I have with PEDs, none of them, in any way, shape, or form, have to do with character.)

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:55 (three months ago) link

I actually didn’t know about Helton’s DUIs

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:57 (three months ago) link

Schoenfield should expand that list and include the guys who are in the Hall already. They don't all stack up super great. The idea of there being a moral test to join the company of Ty Cobb...

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 17:42 (three months ago) link

Ty Cobb tho, played in a very different time and i feel like separating the fact and fiction of who he was today is rather tricky.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 18:23 (three months ago) link

any hall of fame is going to be full of some HOF assholes

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 19:18 (three months ago) link

Posnanski's ballot is entered on the tracker now, though he hasn't posted anything on The Athletic: Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Jones, Manny, Rolen, Sheffield, Sosa, Wagner. He dropped Shilling, but didn't replace him with anyone else.

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 19:53 (three months ago) link

yeah, it's murky. but so are the purely baseball judgments.

i think it was jaffe who went into detail on this in his schilling piece, but: no one is owed induction and schilling was well-compensated for his baseball prowess. as was pete rose.

the hall is about what and who we want to celebrate. like clem said, the bloody sock is probably already there, so it's not like schilling will be erased from baseball history if he doesn't get in. and just because ty cobb is there doesn't mean we have a duty to induct further assholes.

voters will draw lines in different places, but that's why there are a whole bunch of them. in any case, i presume the veteran's committee will be more sympathetic to schilling than the writers, if it comes to that -- i don't think schilling has supported murdering ex-players

mookieproof, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 20:33 (three months ago) link

give it time.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 21:20 (three months ago) link

yesssssss

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 23:19 (three months ago) link

Good day for Thermo's daughter. Schilling ~ 71%, Bonds and Clemens ~62%, Rolen just over 50%.

There's no way Schilling gets in his last year after what happened three weeks ago. I suspect he'll have a tough time with the Veteran's Committee too--aren't they, in general, bigger on character-counts than even the writers?

clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 23:22 (three months ago) link

Scott Rolen's character seems pretty good why isn't he in ffs.

Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 23:37 (three months ago) link

Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley are on the floor of the senate right now, trying to get the vote de-certified...I googled Schilling for some reaction and came across a letter he posted yesterday on Facebook (and linked to on Twitter--I thought he'd been kicked off). I only skimmed it--it's long and rambling. Obviously, I feel bad for him re his wife, who's in the middle of chemotherapy. Elsewhere, there's a real passive-aggressive self-pity going on: "I don’t think I’m a hall of famer as I’ve often stated but if former players think I am then I’ll accept that with honor." Read at your own risk.

https://www.facebook.com/1044701480/posts/10223220822362596/?d=n

clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 00:35 (three months ago) link

Nah I'm good.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 27 January 2021 00:42 (three months ago) link

Recent good read on a vote given for player's character.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/1/26/22249356/commentary-why-i-voted-for-latroy-hawkins-on-my-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot

earlnash, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 01:20 (three months ago) link

I didn't read that Schilling thing closely enough: he's asked to be removed from the ballot.

https://www.tsn.ca/curt-schilling-requests-removal-of-his-name-from-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-1.1583338

Very Trumpian way to short-circuit falling short again.

I liked the way that writer defended his Latroy Hawkins vote, but he's a little schizophrenic--he also voted for Schilling.

clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 02:26 (three months ago) link

I suspect he'll have a tough time with the Veteran's Committee too--aren't they, in general, bigger on character-counts than even the writers?

baseball players as a whole are conservative as fuc. for every dexter fowler or jason heyward there are half a dozen aubrey huffs or adam laroches. i don't think 'character' will mean the same thing to the veterans committee that it does to the writers

anyway, fuck him -- i'm just happy he didn't make it for now

mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 02:31 (three months ago) link

xp hmm article has ?3 sentences about LH; seems mostly about other players...and giving schilling et al the benefit of the doubt

le hague, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 02:32 (three months ago) link

James's idea (posted as a poll on Twitter): "Suppose the HOF vote had 4 committees: BBWAA, Players, Executives/Analysts and Historians, and suppose you had to pass a test to serve on any committee (as well as other credentials). Suppose that 75% means getting a majority from 3 of the 4 committees. Better system, or not?"

clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 03:53 (three months ago) link

not

mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 03:59 (three months ago) link

curious as to what executives/analysts means, tho, and how it differs from the rest

mookieproof, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 04:02 (three months ago) link

"Analysts" would seem to align better with the BBWAA, and just call it media.

I don't think it's a bad idea, but a majority is too low--you'd get four or five inductees most years, I would think. I'd put it at 60%, or two-thirds. I thought three or four years ago that things were going to improve: the logjam was gone, and it was clear that the main group of PED players weren't going in (which at least meant that that debate wouldn't drone on). But it feels really messy again.

clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 05:25 (three months ago) link

The BBWAA thinks that (alleged) drug use is a bigger crime than the stuff that Schilling says? IDGI.

Cronyism on the various HOF committees is more out of control than at any point since the 60's. Maybe people will look at Schilling's comments and take it as a sign that the process needs to change (yet again).

NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 11:15 (three months ago) link

>The BBWAA thinks that (alleged) drug use is a bigger crime than the stuff that Schilling says?

yes AND capitol insurrection was jan 6th and ballots were due Dec 31. I would think there would be SOME attrition if ballots hadn't already been mailed. Nevertheless...

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Wednesday, 27 January 2021 16:00 (three months ago) link

Scott Rolen's character seems pretty good why isn't he in ffs.

― Van Horn Street

he had a big jump in votes this year (52.9%, up from 35% or so), and jay jaffe seems to think he's on a glide path to election in a couple years

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 22:27 (three months ago) link

I think he's a sure-thing, just not sure when. He may get held back by Ortiz next year; in 2023, Beltran comes on, in 2024 it's Beltre.

clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 23:35 (three months ago) link

I’m excited for Beltre. Dude had such a productive golden years to his career.
I hope his plaque has a hand reaching for his head off to the side.

With Rolen, I didn’t realize his career WAR had made it into the 70s (just). A few GG and all star games, a ROY - but only finished top ten in MVP once and never led the league in any notable offensive category ever (I find the later kind of surprising).

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 28 January 2021 06:35 (three months ago) link

Hey Curt: What Hall of Famer said 12 Swiss Jewish bankers ruled the world, the last 8 US presidents were “traitors” and AIDS was hatched in a Maryland lab in order to kill gays and blacks and still got 95.82 pct of the vote? A: Steve Carlton. P.S. I voted for him and for you.

— Bob Ryan (@GlobeBobRyan) January 28, 2021

Karl Malone, Friday, 29 January 2021 02:28 (three months ago) link

bob . . . thanks

mookieproof, Friday, 29 January 2021 03:17 (three months ago) link

What a steaming pile of a hot take.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 29 January 2021 04:48 (three months ago) link

"Freedom of speech got your ass out of Cooperstown, bro'"

The Straw that Stirs the drink has spoken.

earlnash, Sunday, 31 January 2021 17:50 (three months ago) link

I think with Schilling you really have to talk about what a nonentity he was in his twenties. He had a few very good seasons on some bad Phillies teams, especially age 30 and age 31, where his strikeout rate dramatically improved over what he showed in his twenties. In his first all-star appearance at age 30, he was the Phillies' only all star. He was basically Jason Schmidt, the ace of a bad team.

How many guys in the Hall of Fame had zero all star appearances prior to age 30?

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Sunday, 31 January 2021 18:48 (three months ago) link

probably a good amount of guys that retired before 1933.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 31 January 2021 19:51 (three months ago) link

I thought of two that check out, although for obvious reasons they're almost the exceptions that prove the rule: Phil Niekro and Hoyt Wilhelm.

clemenza, Sunday, 31 January 2021 20:49 (three months ago) link

How many guys in the Hall of Fame had zero all star appearances prior to age 30?

i think adrian beltre might fit the bill, once he gets in.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrad01.shtml

if i'm reading that correctly, he didn't make an all-star team until age 31, despite finishing 2nd in the MVP race at age 25 with the dodgers

Karl Malone, Monday, 1 February 2021 00:42 (three months ago) link


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