hall of fame, next vote...

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=halloffame/roundtable/041222

how do you rate the arguments contained herein?

jonathan quayle higgins (j.q. higgins), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:29 (fifteen years ago) link

I don't think Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Lee Smith and Bert Blylevyn were Hall of Famers. Morris, Sandberg, Sutter and Goosage have much better arguments in their favor, but of the lot only Sandberg has to me to have really unimpeachable arguments (i.e. he was clearly the best 2nd basemen of his era and one of the best 2nd basemen ever.) Morris was a monster and at his best (which he was for a large part of 80s) he was one of the best pitchers in baseball, but his numbers aren't incredible and even though that shouldn't matter, it will. Sutter burned out too quick, only seven really great years even though when he was at his height he probably had more impact on any given game than maybe any of these guys. Gossage was around FOREVER and he was also amazing, but I'm not sure he was really as good as Fingers, Eck or Sutter and if he was as good how long he was. That hurts him a little, but really he should be in the hall. I think relievers belong in the Hall, BUT I think they really have to have great #s and either hang around forever at a really high level (like Fingers, Gossage and Riviera) or have had a really respectable career as a starter to boot (like Eckersley).

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:50 (fifteen years ago) link

For the record I am glad that Blyleven didn't win 300 games, because his "automatic" inclusion on that basis would be even more ridiculous than Sutton's. You get some points for longevity, but the hall really should be reserved for players who were at some point GREAT, not players who just managed to play pretty good for a long period of time.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 22 December 2004 23:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Here is the link for anyone who hasn't read last years HOF thread.

Hall of Fame Ballot 2004

Bruce Sutter was the pitcher that brought back and popularized the split finger fastball, which considering how popular a pitch it has become in the past 25 years, it is something that he should get some credit.

"Boggs, for instance, is not a classic Hall of Famer, in my eyes, despite his 3,000 hits; he was a very, very good player, but not a dominant player."

Appearantly Buster forgets the mid 80s when Boggs career batting average was at .355 or so, he won 5 of 6 batting titles and his on base percentage was at a SABERMETRIC stoner high. He also won two of those batting titles by more than twenty points! After age 32, he only once hit over .330, but a bunch of players peak around that time in their career. Boggs average with runners on base and the bases loaded is also off the chart.

Oddly enough, I don't think Boggs was quite the same player after that whole scandal with Margo Adams broke. I think opposing teams quit putting chicken on the buffet when Boston was in town or something.

I think it would be interesting to know how many hits Boggs would have put up if he would have been brought up in 81, when he was 21 instead of 24. Boggs always claimed that he was just a good a hitter at 21, but since he played 1b was always behind Yaz in the depth chart and never got the chance to play in the bigs until he learned how to play 3b. He didn't get called up in 84 until they were wracked with injuries, then he hit over .400 for a month or so and stayed in the lineup from then on.

I grew up mostly watching NL baseball, but Boggs was one of my favorite players to follow and watch hit. Maybe not as fearful as some of the great power hitters of his day, but like Tony Gwynn, he was one of those hitters that seemed to dumbfound pitchers on how to get them out.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:02 (fifteen years ago) link

The Page 2 discussion was really good.

Earl OTM about Boggs, the guy was an offensive powerhouse.

It's the usual BS with guys like Sandberg -- 2B and 3B are underrepresented positions in the HoF because their offensive numbers aren't at the level of 1B or OF, they're not remembered for being "flashy" like SS, and they're not "on-the-field leaders" like C. Sandberg is a no-brainer.

Gossage should be in, I hear the arguments for Sutter that he wasn't great for as long as some other guys, but a) he was dominant for about the same length of time that Mo Rivera has been (and a lot of people consider him a future HoF player -- yeah, I know Mo's postseason performance is part of that, but still), and b) he INVENTED a pitch, which is a damned significant contribution to the game.

The Blyleven arguments boil down to the fact that he WAS great, but was pitching for bad teams. I think people are wising up to the idea that there are guys like Sutton who are in only because they pitched for good teams.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:29 (fifteen years ago) link

Rob Neyer's done some great columns on Blyleven, I don't have the time to look for them now ... maybe someone else has a link to them?

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 01:29 (fifteen years ago) link

Rivera's been dominant for longer than Sutter at this point (by two more years), MIR. And Rivera wouldn't even be mentioned as a future HOFer if it weren't for the postseason stuff.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:04 (fifteen years ago) link

The funny thing about Morris, as I recall, is that he always seemed to pitch just good enough to stay ahead. If his team had 7 runs he'd give up 6 and if his boys only managed 1 run he'd throw a shut-out. It was the weirdest thing.

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:07 (fifteen years ago) link

The 1984 Tigers never get much call when they talk about great all-time teams, that team didn't really have any "superstars" but they were really deep and talented team. I think Sparky Anderson platooned at about half of the positions. Lance Parrish, Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker all three also had really good careers and don't get quite the props that they deserve.

That season I remember seeing Jack Morris throw a no hitter on TV against the White Sox as it was the game of the week Saturday Afternoon on NBC. I can remember my dad was working in the garage and coming in every so often to check it out how the game was going, as he joked after the first inning or so wouldn't it be funny if he threw a no hitter.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 03:42 (fifteen years ago) link

>the hall really should be reserved for players who were at some point GREAT, not players who just managed to play pretty good for a long period of time.

But if that were the case, there'd be 80 or 90 members, except for what, 240 now?

By the established standard, Blyleven belongs. If you're "very good" for long enough (BB was in the top 10 in league Adjusted ERA 11 times from '71-89), that's worth 5-6 years of dominance (the peak vs career, Koufax vs Spahn argument). There was some research I read in the last year that showed Bert didn't suffer quite as much from his teammates' inadequacy as generally thought, but it wasn't enough for him to drop off my "ballot."

>The funny thing about Morris, as I recall, is that he always seemed to pitch just good enough to stay ahead.

"I know not seems..." I'll try to find a link for you, Thermo, but someone recently did a study of Morris's career in this regard, and it showed *no* special ability to pitch that way. He threw 1150 fewer innings than Blyleven and his career ERA was only 5% better than the league's (Bert 18%) -- that's not a negligible difference. Morris had a good career, but not a HOFer.

I'd vote for Gossage on greatness and longevity, Sutter on peak and pioneer role, close but unconvinced for Lee Smith. Rest of ballot: Boggs, Sandberg, and TRAMMELL, most deserving SS of that era below Ozzie. Dawson and Rice fall short.

It's sad that the Vets Committee process has obviously been fucked up to the point where they may never elect anyone, as I fear Ron Santo will die before his deserved induction.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 14:52 (fifteen years ago) link

I'll try to find a link for you, Thermo, but someone recently did a study of Morris's career in this regard, and it showed *no* special ability to pitch that way
Well even if that's true & it debunks my theory - it at least means someone else has noticed!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 15:32 (fifteen years ago) link

"But if that were the case, there'd be 80 or 90 members, except for what, 240 now?"

I'm not sure that would be worst thing ever actually, but my problem with Blyleven is that during his time he was never really recognized as being one of the best in the game. He wasn't voted to All Star games, he didn't make Cy Young top 10s, he wasn't talked about as being a great pitcher. And I think that hurts him. NOW if the reason why none of those things occurred was that he toiled entirely in obscurity for shitty teams and if he'd been on the Dodgers, the Red Sox, the Yankees and the Reds for those years instead that there would be a complete about face and he'd be considered among the best pitchers of his era, well all I can say geez that's bad luck for Bert, but I think that's a hard argument to make conclusively.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 16:17 (fifteen years ago) link

That Bert was named to only 2 All-Star teams just shows how debased that is as a criterion.

MIR, here's a 4-year-old Neyer column on Blyleven... Alex, I think it's conclusive:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/1213/943398.html

And he later wrote:

"Blyleven was, over the course of his career, a better pitcher than Ted Lyons or Early Wynn or Bob Lemon or Red Ruffing or Rube Waddell or Red Faber or Catfish Hunter or Lefty Gomez, all of whom are in the Hall of Fame... It's not Blyleven's fault that he generally pitched for unspectacular teams that played in hitter's parks. In fact, Blyleven pitched for 22 seasons, and in only four of those 22 seasons did Blyleven's home ballpark favor the pitcher, statistically..."

And to appeal to the butch old-timers: 242 complete games!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:41 (fifteen years ago) link

>he didn't make Cy Young top 10s

Four of 'em (third twice).

http://baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:47 (fifteen years ago) link

When you start out your argument claiming that Blyleven was a better pitcher than Sutton (who wasn't even close to a great pitcher and doesn't deserve to be in the Hall IMO) and Ryan (who was a complete statistical anomaly and does deserve to be in the Hall for that, but was also not a great pitcher) you've already undercut your case tremendously, Rob.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Here's the BP article about Jack Morris that attempts to determine where Morris had the ability to pitch to the score:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815

It concludes that there is no evidence to suggest that he could.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:59 (fifteen years ago) link

to determine *whether* Morris had the ability to pitch to the score

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 17:59 (fifteen years ago) link

I'm not sure how many pitchers in history meet your def of "great," Alex -- let's deal with the Hall you have, rather than the one you wish to have -- but the argument he makes is that Blyleven was better than several HOF pitchers, and comparable to *many* others. And he was.

That's the article I meant, MIR, thanks.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:07 (fifteen years ago) link

Alex, to be fair to Neyer, he didn't bring Sutton and Ryan into the discussion. He was responding to the examples of Sutton and Ryan as mentioned in the reader's letter.

I think he's written a couple of other columns on Blyleven, maybe I can find them ...

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:13 (fifteen years ago) link

Thanks for the link.

Those are some mind-numbing stats!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:14 (fifteen years ago) link

Michael Wolverton makes the case for Blyleven:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2002/0728/1411078.html

This, and many other articles stating his HoF case are collected -- where else? -- on Blyleven's web page:

http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

xpost -- yeah, the Morris article is a bit of a numbers slog, but it's well done.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:21 (fifteen years ago) link

"I'm not sure how many pitchers in history meet your def of "great," Alex"

Enough, believe me. And I saw him compare him to two HOF pitchers, one of whom is IMO a mistake and the other who is basically in the Hall because he had a zillion strikeouts and a slew of no hitters. Compare him to Carlton or Seaver or Hunter or any of the really great pitchers from his era, if you want to make your point (that this guy is getting job) don't just claim he was "better than Don Sutton" cuz my response to that is so the fuck what.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:38 (fifteen years ago) link

getting jobbed, ahem.

That second ESPN article is much better btw and makes a pretty good case.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:40 (fifteen years ago) link

Catfish "really great"? Come now... talk about a guy who lucked out. Look at Hunter vs Blyleven (or Sutton, for that matter) and tell me how Hunter's better.

No, Bert is not Seaver or Carlton.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 23 December 2004 18:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Bert's website is great btw. He should get in just for having that.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 19:04 (fifteen years ago) link

Well I didn't see Hunter, but the perenial All Star games, the Cy Young, the top 4 in Cy Young voting four times, the fact that he supposedly one of the most respected pitchers of his era, the postseason accolades, the biggest free agent coup ever for his time and the very impressive statistics kinda indicated to me that he might have been good. Obv you know better though.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 19:48 (fifteen years ago) link

All that stuff about Hunter is true, and of course that's why he got in. Looking deeper into the numbers though ... he pitched in extreme pitchers parks for his entire career, played for great teams, and generally didn't have great ERA's (he was in the top 3 three times, but never in the top 10 otherwise). He threw a lot of innings, but was overworked at a young age which is why he was washed up at 30, which is hella young for a HoF'er.

He played for fifteen years, and he had about four great years, four good years, and the rest were downright BAD. If he'd pitched for anyone other than the 70's A's and Yankees dynasties, there's no way he'd be anywhere near a serious HoF discussion.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 20:51 (fifteen years ago) link

"He threw a lot of innings, but was overworked at a young age which is why he was washed up at 30, which is hella young for a HoF'er."

See this is where I get the impression that cold-dispassionate analysis of the stats lies a little. For 5 years (71-75), Hunter was probably hands down the most feared pitcher in baseball. No he might not have been Koufax, but he was still by all accounts pretty amazing. Those five years count for more to me than 20 some odd years of just pretty good workmanlike pitching (I will admit that these breakdowns of Blyleven's stats are making a pretty case that he was better than that.) (I do have to wonder WHY if Bert was so great, he um didn't get snatched up by better teams? I mean that can't all be bad luck, right?)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:23 (fifteen years ago) link

Burt Blyleven:

Postseason Pitching


Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
1970 ALCS MIN BAL L 1 0 0.00 0-0 0 0 0 2.0 2 0 0 2
1979 NLCS PIT CIN W 1 1 1.00 1-0 0 1 0 9.0 8 1 0 9
WS PIT BAL W 2 1 1.80 1-0 0 0 0 10.0 8 2 3 4
1987 ALCS MIN DET W 2 2 4.05 2-0 0 0 0 13.3 12 6 3 9
WS MIN STL W 2 2 2.77 1-1 0 0 0 13.0 13 4 2 12
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
3 Lg Champ Series 2-1 4 3 2.59 3-0 0 1 0 24.3 22 7 3 20
2 World Series 2-0 4 3 2.35 2-1 0 0 0 23.0 21 6 5 16
5 Postseason Ser 4-1 8 6 2.47 5-1 0 1 0 47.3 43 13 8 36
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+

He didn't get many chances, but Blyleven pitched well in the playoffs and was a part of two World Series Champions.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:37 (fifteen years ago) link

I seem to remember Bert looking pretty good in the series with the Cardinals (aka the original You Don't Win If You Don't Play At Home series.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 21:48 (fifteen years ago) link

I do have to wonder WHY if Bert was so great, he um didn't get snatched up by better teams?

Many of his best years came before free agency, so he didn't have much choice in the matter.

Even with free agency, it's only during the last ten years or so that all the best players end up on big-market winning teams at some point, since eventually those are the only teams that can afford them. If Jaret Wright can bounce around for a while, have one good season after a slew of crappy ones, and end up with a multi-year deal from a perennial contender, then Blyleven would have ended up playing for more winning teams too, if he was playing today.

Even so, every era has a few great players who toil away in relative obscurity. Look at Bobby Abreu, or even Carlos Delgado. If Delgado goes to the Mets, maybe in 20 years people will be saying "if he was so good, why did his teams always finish in third place?"

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 23 December 2004 22:54 (fifteen years ago) link

Nobody says that about hitters (as their stats aren't at all dependent on their team being good.) They just look at the stats and marvel that nobody noticed at the time.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 23 December 2004 23:22 (fifteen years ago) link

I have no idea why previous subjective honors (Cy Youngs, All-Star selections) would be used as criteria for another subjective honor.

Alex, nobody's saying Hunter wasn't GOOD, just that Blyleven was better for MUCH longer, and that "good press" shouldn't be a measure of excellence. And I don't see Hunter '71-75 being "amazing" ... His most "impressive statistics" are wins (ie, having good teammates) and innings pitched (which blew out his arm, as MIR says). I think he got extra credit for the pennants and the sexy nicknames. And it's cute how you use high Cy Young finishes as relevant to Hunter, not relevant for Blyleven. (Also, I don't see Hunter's status as the first Big Splash free agent being relevant; see Marvin Miller's book for how clownishly Catfish handled that situation.)

The "cold-dispassionate analysis of the stats" is the most reliable evidence there is. Not "what you heard" (from Joe Morgan?). And it isn't so much that Blyleven toiled for bad teams (they were more often mediocre), but pitched in hitters' parks.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 26 December 2004 03:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Speaking of Marvin Miller, what are the odds of him getting in this year (the nu-Vets Committee votes this year, right?).

I hope it happens soon so that he lives to attend his own induction.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 26 December 2004 08:04 (fifteen years ago) link

blah blah blah. my opinon is better than your opinion and i have proof! blah blah blah.


otto midnight (otto midnight), Monday, 27 December 2004 07:32 (fifteen years ago) link


I generally agree, OM. HOF debates generally bore me, especially when one side is "he was MONEY" or "folks sure wrote boilerplate hosannas about him in the '70s."

It's not lookin' good for Marv, MIR -- when the Vets voted last in '03, no one came close to getting 75% ... and of the 60 votes required for election, Miller got 35. He got three FEWER votes than Walter O'Malley -- or as we call him in Brooklyn, Satan.

Miller and other non-players are on the "composite" ballot. Here's this year's players' ballot:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/veterans/2005/2005_vc_candidates.htm


The only one I'm sold on is Santo, but Dick Allen and Tony Oliva have decent cases -- as does Curt Flood for courage and legal pioneering.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 14:28 (fifteen years ago) link

Rocky Colavito was a bit like Jim Rice, he hit like he was going to the Hall until he hit his early 30s, then it was over. I have a dog eared card of his when he played in Cleveland.

Mickey Lolich won't get in the Hall, but his pitching in the 68 World Series may be the best performance ever in the fall classic by a starter. The guy out pitched Bob Gibson in Game Seven on TWO days rest. ESPN Classic was showed that game a few months back and it was great. Harry Caray was doing the play by play.

While I don't know if he is good enough player to make the hall, Al Oliver had a pretty good career and never gets put on these kind of lists.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Monday, 27 December 2004 16:38 (fifteen years ago) link

I don't think it looks good for anybody to get voted in by the nu-Vets committee anytime soon ... as Morbs said, nobody came close to getting 75% last time. If they go through two or three voting years with nobody getting elected, they'll probably change the rules.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:12 (fifteen years ago) link

Al Oliver was just "pretty good," ie a hitter not any more suitable for enshrinement than Rusty Staub or Vada Pinson. (His top BaseballRef comparables are Steve Garvey and Bill Buckner -- same story.)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:29 (fifteen years ago) link

Just out of curiousity how old are you Dr Morbius?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:43 (fifteen years ago) link

Exactly 5 years younger than Jesse Orosco!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 17:55 (fifteen years ago) link

(I suspected as much.) Anyway, I was talking with my family about Blyleven this weekend and apparently he had a reputation of not being particularly well-liked and kind of an odd duck to boot (although I'm guessing that being Dutch was probably considered totally bizarre enough for a lot of people.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:05 (fifteen years ago) link

Al Oliver didn't walk much

Riot Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:22 (fifteen years ago) link

I hear that a few people didn't like Ty Cobb either.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Yes well luckily for Cobb he was a couple of generations removed from the people who were voting on his HOF induction so his jerkiness was more anecdotal than personal.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 18:38 (fifteen years ago) link


Cobb's last season: 1928
Inducted into HOF: 1936

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:15 (fifteen years ago) link

Cobb retired in 1928 and was elected in 1936. So many of the voters would have seen him play.

My general point is that "b...b...but he was a bit of an asshole" is a criticism that's used far too often despite being irrelevant most of the time. As long as the guy didn't compromise the game of baseball (Pete Rose being the most obvious example) then I couldn't care less if he was moody and didn't get along with everybody. If he could bring it on the field, then that's the most important thing.

(xpost)

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:16 (fifteen years ago) link

It wasn't a criticism. I was just pointing out that it might be a reason why he'd been snubbed (that and of course that people are overly fixated on 300 wins, which is also not a very fair reason.) Of course, people who can't read for shit might have trouble distinguishing the two.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:21 (fifteen years ago) link

"Cobb's last season: 1928
Inducted into HOF: 1936"

Haha I need to learn to check baseballreference.com before I say stuff sometimes.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:23 (fifteen years ago) link

And I didn't say that YOU specifically were the one doing the criticising. I was saying that anyone who would withhold a HoF vote in part because they felt that player needed an attitude adjustment are themselves in need of an attitude adjustment.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 27 December 2004 19:33 (fifteen years ago) link

Sal Bando and Buddy Bell and Graig Nettles (and Boyer, I suppose) are a category unto themselves; maybe Rolen will open the door for at least one of them.

clemenza, Friday, 24 January 2020 02:14 (ten months ago) link

My own sense is that Grich/Whitaker/Evans/Tiant (maybe).

Cone was a great pitcher who had some poor luck by peaking in KC, and during the strike, which cost him 200+ wins. Plus an injury a bit after that. Regardless he likely would’ve suffered the same fate as Brown (a pretty similar pitcher in some respects tho Brown was better). Though he’d also have cleared the slightly more *~~magical~~* 70+ bwar threshold with a bit more time.

omar little, Friday, 24 January 2020 02:35 (ten months ago) link

Those third basemen are to an extent the poor man’s Santo, who is the old man’s Rolen.

omar little, Friday, 24 January 2020 02:36 (ten months ago) link

i know Pettitte and Brown had some smoke around them w/r/t PED use

According to pages 215-217 of the Mitchell Report, both of these guys were turned in by Kirk Radomski with validated purchasing receipts and signature tracking shipments of vast quantities of HGH.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 24 January 2020 03:07 (ten months ago) link

...but to your point, maybe they just bought it to collect it or save it for a rainy day or what have you.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 24 January 2020 03:07 (ten months ago) link

(nevermind, Randomski testified under oath he injected Pettite with HGH)

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 24 January 2020 03:08 (ten months ago) link

Oh yeah I guess Kirk snitched on those guys too I remembered some Pettitte thing with “injury recovery” used as an excuse, and he was very “ashamed” iirc. Obviously never did it before that, very out of character, etc.

omar little, Friday, 24 January 2020 03:12 (ten months ago) link

I think Cone came out about even for the strike year in terms of his HOF résumé : you're right, it may have cost him 200 wins (although he would've needed 22 on the year), but he eked out a Cy Young that he could very well have lost to Johnson or Key or Mussina if the season had played out.

clemenza, Friday, 24 January 2020 03:40 (ten months ago) link

guys andy pettitte was just trying to get healthy so he could help the team

mookieproof, Friday, 24 January 2020 04:34 (ten months ago) link

For just those two days out of his whole entire life.

Andy K, Friday, 24 January 2020 15:17 (ten months ago) link

from that list, grich and whittaker should already be in

i will fight for lofton and evans

i will root for reuschel, the only decent thing about some truly horrible mid-80s pirates teams

mookieproof, Friday, 24 January 2020 15:30 (ten months ago) link

It would have been great if Big Daddy's comeback started in Chicago in '84, they could have used him and with a good Reuschel in the rotation, they might have won it all.

The baseball play I would have loved to have seen and I guess there is no video of is that Jim Abbott hit a triple off Big Daddy in spring training.

Reuschel looked like the ringer pitcher on any Indiana slow pitch softball team in the 80s. For authenticity, you know they are good if they are wearing work boots on the field.

earlnash, Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:24 (ten months ago) link

Grich and Lofton should 100% be in. The case for Grich is stronger, but Grich was a little before my time so I feel more emotionally engaged with the case for Lofton.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 19:09 (nine months ago) link

Lofton's career box is kind of amazing: 10 years in Cleveland (two tours), exactly one year with 10 other teams. Not saying it should--I think he was far more a player that teams always wanted rather than wanted to get rid of--but I'm sure that's a big part of what's holding him back.

clemenza, Tuesday, 28 January 2020 19:35 (nine months ago) link

I feel like it should be the other way! Nobody really LIKES Derek Jeter except Yankee fans, nobody really likes Ryan Braun except Brewers fans; but half the fans in the league cheered for Kenny Lofton at some point!

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 23:39 (nine months ago) link

People often confuse Lofton with Willie Mays Hays, that might be part of the problem.

earlnash, Wednesday, 29 January 2020 04:18 (nine months ago) link

Congratulations to the 2020 Inductees.
Canadian slugger Justin Morneau, former Blue Jays first baseman John Olerud, ex-Blue Jays set-up man & later closer Duane Ward & Montreal Expos broadcaster Jacques Doucet will be inducted on June 20 in @townofstmarys. https://t.co/BDqrTtnl2a pic.twitter.com/8LBkTwbIpi

— CDN Baseball HOF (@CDNBaseballHOF) February 4, 2020

mookieproof, Tuesday, 4 February 2020 15:35 (nine months ago) link

If all goes as planned, I'll be a volunteer there by the time they're inducted.

clemenza, Wednesday, 5 February 2020 19:33 (nine months ago) link

awesome!

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:01 (nine months ago) link

isn't it way outside the GTA?

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:01 (nine months ago) link

I live in St. Mary's now, Thermo--I can walk to the HOF.

clemenza, Thursday, 6 February 2020 02:43 (nine months ago) link

(St. Marys--no hyphen.)

clemenza, Thursday, 6 February 2020 02:43 (nine months ago) link

there is a town
in southwestern ontario

mookieproof, Thursday, 6 February 2020 03:11 (nine months ago) link

two months pass...

Nothing too contentious here:

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/what-active-mlb-players-will-make-hall-of-fame-trout-cabrera-pujols-among-locks-cano-on-the-bubble/

Is Betts being given a pass for sign-stealing in a way that Altuve isn't? I really don't know the details there.

clemenza, Wednesday, 15 April 2020 16:10 (seven months ago) link

Betts is probably the consensus best player in baseball

I would like to contend this!

k3vin k., Thursday, 16 April 2020 11:54 (seven months ago) link

I hadn't read the piece, but I see that now and, uh, that might actually be an actionable offense. (Much better might have been that at many points in history, except this one, Betts would have been the best player in baseball.)

clemenza, Thursday, 16 April 2020 12:28 (seven months ago) link

2020 induction ceremony officially canceled

mookieproof, Wednesday, 29 April 2020 20:54 (six months ago) link

five months pass...

evan longoria turns 35 today. as he's now merely a league-average hitter at best, he's not going to get there, but he's closer to hall status by bWAR/JAWS than i anticipated

mookieproof, Wednesday, 7 October 2020 21:24 (one month ago) link

Could see him being one of those guys who moves to a hitters park and goes nuts for a few years

, Wednesday, 7 October 2020 21:35 (one month ago) link

none of this during playoff games

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 October 2020 21:44 (one month ago) link

Not sure that I've ever seen someone's HOF case take a bigger hit within a year than Altuve's, both on and off the field--from somewhere up near near-certain down to almost no chance.

clemenza, Wednesday, 14 October 2020 14:31 (one month ago) link

one month passes...

eww

https://i.imgur.com/bwNjXQj.jpg

mookieproof, Monday, 16 November 2020 17:29 (one week ago) link

there's still like 9 on there

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Monday, 16 November 2020 17:33 (one week ago) link

If all goes well for Schilling, he'll get to show up at his induction ceremony without a mask.

clemenza, Monday, 16 November 2020 18:27 (one week ago) link

none of the new adds this year should make it (in an ideal world), right?

na (NA), Monday, 16 November 2020 18:30 (one week ago) link

seems like a mediocre set of adds

na (NA), Monday, 16 November 2020 18:30 (one week ago) link

one could make (weak) arguments for buehrle, hudson and hunter. the other additions aren't even close

mookieproof, Monday, 16 November 2020 21:25 (one week ago) link

Whole lot of baseball played by guys on the list, but outside your usual 'roid and ragers of different stripes, more the hall of very good for the most of them.

It just seems weird that Dan Haren has been out of baseball that long, seems like he should still be pitching.

LaTroy Hawkins had such an odd career. At points he was a great reliever, but then at others he was very hittable. Hawkins still had a pretty good fastball late into his career. For whatever reason, the guy seemed to really struggle when he was the 'closer'. I guess like retail, it's all about location in the end.

Shane Victorino always seemed like a fun player, but he played for teams I usually did not like. Seemed to be a fan favorite where ever he played. I dug that he used a two ear batting helmet as a switch hitter.

earlnash, Tuesday, 17 November 2020 01:21 (one week ago) link

Heh...Nick Swisher's similars on Baseball Reference is a fun list. Swisher always looked to me that he knew the strike zone and what to do at the plate. I kinda think he might be one of those guys that made the most out of his talent. Considering the time he played in, the guy did not look nearly as athletic as his team mates.

Similar Batters

Carlos Santana (955.8)
Jayson Werth (929.3)
Bob Allison (926.7)
Jeff Burroughs (926.0)
Andre Thornton (920.5)
Pat Burrell (918.8)
Kevin McReynolds (913.1)
Matt Stairs (910.8)
Mark Reynolds (908.1)
John Mayberry (907.1)

earlnash, Tuesday, 17 November 2020 01:30 (one week ago) link

Will never forget watching Dan Haren warming up while sitting next to Dr. Morbius whose running commentary had me (and several others in earshot) in stitches.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 17 November 2020 02:30 (one week ago) link

I always enjoyed Victorino's nickname ("The Flying Hawaiian") more than his gameplay itself.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 17 November 2020 02:32 (one week ago) link

I think that nickname is mandatory for anyone from those islands with functioning legs.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 17 November 2020 04:16 (one week ago) link

uh, are you willing to expand on that?

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 17 November 2020 04:49 (one week ago) link

Well I can’t seem to find any evidence - maybe it was just a thing my uncle would do

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 17 November 2020 05:07 (one week ago) link

I was thinking there was a football player that got called 'The Flying Hawaiian' and I guess it has been applied to any football player that was a non-lineman or known as 'The Throwing Samoan'. Outside both Marcus Mariota and Troy Polamalu, there is a guy that plays for the Argonauts and a football character on King of the Hill that use that nickname. [sorry good doc for talking football on ILB.]

earlnash, Wednesday, 18 November 2020 02:21 (one week ago) link

I was tuned out enough that I didn't realize Robinson Cano had a very good season, at least offensively. I assume he's dead for the HOF...may end up with 3,000 hits, almost 400 HR, and a .300 career average.

clemenza, Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:09 (four days ago) link

yeah he was locked in, but a *second* positive really ended it

there's a psych study waiting to happen there

mookieproof, Saturday, 21 November 2020 06:15 (four days ago) link

Going to be 38 next year and is 375 hits shy of 3000, so he would probably need to play at least three full seasons to hit that number. This will be 81 game suspension for second time, I think.

earlnash, Saturday, 21 November 2020 12:44 (four days ago) link

Ha--when I posted yesterday, I hadn't even heard the news. Definitely RIP now.

clemenza, Sunday, 22 November 2020 17:51 (three days ago) link

Happy 80th to Luis Tiant--get him in there!

clemenza, Tuesday, 24 November 2020 02:27 (yesterday) link


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