Roger Clemens - Classic Or Dud?

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So Roger announced he's retiring for good?

i'm sad to see him go... without at least getting drilled in the head. well, those are harsh words but i think Clemens would not be the pitcher he was if he played in the NL. I think his classless behavior outshines his brilliance.

ILBB, what's the score?

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 13 November 2003 18:53 (nineteen years ago) link

haha - k-classic!

cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 13 November 2003 19:20 (nineteen years ago) link

I think he is totally classic. Clemens pitched well late in his career like few hard throwing starters ever have and outside of perhaps Randy Johnson was the best power starting pitcher of his generation.

In the playoffs, the announcers kept making a point that Pedro was such a better pitcher than Clemens, but if you compare their stats at the same age, they are quite similar. I tend to doubt that Martinez will win three more Cy Young awards, which Clemens did after the same age.

It wouldn't have mattered if he pitched in the NL, he would have had the same kind of success. Gibson and Drysdale did the same kind of things and lived to tell.

The whole bat thing in the world series was blown out of proportion. He was tossing it up the line, I personally don't think he was tossing it at Piazza. He shouldn't of cracked him in the head in the first place, I'll give you that, but most of the great ones that play the game long have a one bad thing to live down. (I guess you can add getting kicked out in the first inning of that one playoff game against A's arguing balls & strikes, but that was a pretty quick hook.)

Other than Yaz and Nomar, Boston seems to have a tradition of somewhat despising their best players whether it is Ted Williams, Jim Rice or Clemens.

Of course if McNamara hadn't pinch hit for him in Game Six, Boston would have never come to hate him, or they would have come to hate him for a completely different reason.

earlnash, Thursday, 13 November 2003 19:53 (nineteen years ago) link

I hate that fucker. And years from now when I think back on Mike Piazza's career, what will occur to me first is that he should have killed Clemens but didn't.

Great pitcher, though.

mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 14 November 2003 13:47 (nineteen years ago) link

Classic of course...not many pitchers are throwing 94 MPH after 18 years in the big leagues.

David Beeson, Saturday, 15 November 2003 19:05 (nineteen years ago) link

Classic, for sure. I always marvel at the fact that he pitched in the 86 World Series. He was the starting Game 6 pitcher, as I recall. Anyway it's great to have a link to that era. I was rooting for the Red Sox that year (I was 10), being more vehemently anti-Met than anti-Sox at that point.

calstars (calstars), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:24 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Clemens comes out of retirement: 1 year, $5MM with the Astros

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 12 January 2004 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Is he getting ready to eat something?

Leee Majors (Leee), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:06 (eighteen years ago) link

I seem to recall he hits decently for a pitcher (*googles* hmm well, lifetime .200, 4/20) but something tells me roger dodger will be hitting the deck in the batter's box a few times this year.

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 01:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think he's much more then a .500 pitcher these days.

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 02:49 (eighteen years ago) link

aw thanks bnw...? :\

i heard a rumor that tomko is insurance dependent upon schmidt's recovery from his offseason surgery to repair the torn tendon in his elbow.

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 03:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Is he getting ready to eat something?

I really want to see a foot-long sub move very slowly from the left side of the photo into his mouth.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 03:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Seriously, though, as a Cubs fan, this news gives me headaches. Pettitte and Clemens = too much.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Dude, as a Cubs fan you should remember that you have Wood/Prior/Zambrano/Clement... I'd take those 4 over Oswalt/Pettite (2003 record 21-8 but ERA >4.00)/Clemens(wayyyy past his prime 2 years ago)/Miller.

The Cubbies needed some offense and got a huge pick up with Derrek Lee... he is like Vlad Guerrero in the sense that he can smack the ball all over (and off) the field and has speed and is a gold glover... all at a fraction of the cost. I'm very anxious to see his performance in comfy Wrigley as opposed to spacious Pro Player, I think his slugging will skyrocket (2003 home/away slugging = .419/.591).

gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 03:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Enron/Minutemaid Field in Houston is a joke for pitchers. That thing has near the same dimensions as an American Legion baseball field.

I'm sure Clemens will be happy the first time a routine fly ball out to left becomes a three run homer.

I'd say Clemens chances of a having a decent season are about 50/50. When an athlete completely loses his skills, it sometimes comes suddenly and it isn't pretty (ask Emmitt Smith -- recent example). We will have to see if he is pushing it one year too long.

earlnash, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 12:57 (eighteen years ago) link

I heard Fassero (aka the Fossil) is on the Rockies. They might as well put the ball on a T when he comes in.

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 04:55 (eighteen years ago) link

What's up with this turncoat talk? How did he betray Houston?

Leee Majors (Leee), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 07:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I think they mean he betrayed NY, joining his lackey Pettitte in Houston.

There definitely isn't any tears about David Wells leaving NY this time.

earlnash, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link

his lackey¿

dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Ach, for some reason I thought those were Houston area papers.

Leee Majors (Leee), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 22:24 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass... far Clemens is pitching great so far (5-0 era 1.93) for the first month of the season. I'm sure the fact that many of these NL hitters haven't faced him might help, but still for someone at 41, he has been quite impressive.

earlnash, Monday, 3 May 2004 12:02 (eighteen years ago) link

can't he be a classic AND an asshole? i mean, isn't he what some purists would classify as a character or at least some form of re-occuring type?

or are comparisons to old school bulldog types rendered moot b/c the rocket hasn't really had to bat?

j.q. higgins, Monday, 3 May 2004 20:59 (eighteen years ago) link

TS: Being an asshole vs. Nearly ending Piazza's career

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 3 May 2004 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link

really, throwing the broken bat is both dud and classic.

dyson (dyson), Monday, 3 May 2004 22:52 (eighteen years ago) link

even i thought that was dud, and i'm a fanatical yankees fan. i can't imagine how offensive that shit must've been to piazza, the mets, and their fans.

clemens is a sociopath, and therefore a dud.

John (jdahlem), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 02:08 (eighteen years ago) link

So who's gonna break ground on the MLB Sociopath and Reprobate Hall of Fame? I've got a nickel burning a hole in my pocket...

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 12:11 (eighteen years ago) link

NL Pitcher of the Month for April: Classic.

boldbury (boldbury), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 15:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Rack up another win and another 9k's for Clemens. Guess what haters, Clemens is also hitting a respectable for a pitcher .214 so far this season.

One has to admire a future hall of famer that can find common ground between Red Sox, Mets and Yankees fans by their mutual hating of him.

earlnash, Thursday, 6 May 2004 01:43 (eighteen years ago) link

admire, or admit that he must be complete scum?

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 6 May 2004 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Hang on, man! Let the bully nail it down before you go off jinxing the 'Stros.

And regarding his batting, he already has 2 rbi and a sac bunt or two. The guy is not bad at handling the bat at all. He seems to get it in play most of the time.

boldbury (boldbury), Thursday, 6 May 2004 01:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Clemens is k-classic. Ending Piazza's career would have been a gift to us all, if not Belle & Sebastian.

If you hate Clemens, you have to hate every Nolan Ryan-and-before power pitcher, they all did the same things. Has anyone ever been seriously injured by the guy?

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 6 May 2004 06:12 (eighteen years ago) link

except for Piazza, of course

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 6 May 2004 06:13 (eighteen years ago) link

If you hate Clemens, you have to hate every Nolan Ryan-and-before power pitcher, they all did the same things.

i'm not seeing the logic. i hate clemens because he got fat and lazy his last two years in boston, not showing up for spring training then showing up 30 lbs overweight for the last two weeks. he was a middling pitcher his last 4 years in a red sox uni and complained when he was offered a contract that would only mildly overpay him instead of wildly overpay him. then he got himself back in shape and signed with a division rival solely for the cash. two years later he screws the jays over too and signs with the yankees where he suddenly relizes he was meant to be in pinstripes or some such nonsense. after much pomp and circumstance he announces what turns out to be a WWF-style "retirement" that lasted almost a whole off-season.

yeah i hate the guy but it has nothing to do with being a power pitcher. i measure a man by whether or not he does what he says he'll do, the rocket's word isn't worth shit to me.

otto midnight (otto midnight), Thursday, 6 May 2004 12:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll admit that I've thought the guy was a jerk for a long time, going back to when he tried to orchestrate a trade from Toronto to Houston, but then stipulated that the Astros would have to rework his contract. He wanted the exact opposite of the hometown discount, he wanted a hometown bonus. Plus all the other beanball crap with Piazza and others made me like him even less. I cheered when I saw Shawn Estes throw that ball behind his head a couple of years ago. And for a while now, I refused to acknowledge him as a fellow Texas Longhorn, even though he helped UT win a College World Series.

However, as is my custom, when a player comes to my team, all sins are forgiven and judgements are made based on what he does in an Astros uniform.

And what he is doing on the field right now is flat-out amazing.

Pre-2004: Dud
2004: Classic

boldbury (boldbury), Thursday, 6 May 2004 12:36 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm talking about the people calling him a sociopath and so on, Otto. Hating him for his style of play, which isn't different from the old-timers.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 6 May 2004 12:45 (eighteen years ago) link

oh, for that i don't hate him. i think he's an a-hole but i don't hate every a-hole i meet.

otto midnight (otto midnight), Thursday, 6 May 2004 13:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't remember any "old-timer" HOF-quality pitchers throwing a broken bat at a runner...

Clemens is a FAR better pitcher than Ryan, but he'll not be hanging around long enough to pass him in Ks.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 6 May 2004 13:10 (eighteen years ago) link

That Estes pitch was behind the small of his back, not his head. And the "sociopath" thing comes from the bat-tossing incident (cf. Morbius) more than Clemens' "head hunting", which isn't any worse than what Pedro does, or what Manny Ramirez thinks every pitcher does.

I wonder if Clemens thanks Dan Duquette for inadvertently putting the foot in his ass following his less-than-glorious departure from Fenway. And didn't Clemens break from his Blue Jay contract specifically to get traded / become a free agent?

Is it just me, or should the reps of Clemens and Bonds be swapped? If Bonds had 1/100th of Clemens' affability when it comes to schmoozing, he'd probably be just as oddly untarnished as the Model Rocket is, despite Clemens' list of wrongs putting Bonds' list to shame.

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 6 May 2004 13:16 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, the "sociopath" thing comes from an apparent inability to empathize or understand any wrongdoing on his part ever. i don't hate his style of player either, although no one likes a headhunter when he's on the other team.

John (jdahlem), Thursday, 6 May 2004 16:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Just an update for everybody, in case you missed it (which isn't very likely with the treatment ESPN is giving it):

7 IP, 3 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 11 K


boldbury (boldbury), Wednesday, 12 May 2004 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

eight months pass...
"[Clemens[ can make more of a difference for the Houston Astros than any player in baseball.... There is only one Roger Clemens. We have some magnificent players here who have played great. But it was his personality, his championship attitude, that lifted us last season."
--Drayton McLane, Astros owner, on Clemens (Houston Chronicle)

Astros record pre-6/24*: 38-34 (52.7% win percent)
Clemens stats pre-6/24*: 19 Starts, 10-2, 2.73 ERA

Astros record post-6/24*: 54-36 (60.0% win percent)
Clemens stats post-6/24*: 14 Starts, 8-2, 3.41 ERA

*date of Beltran 3-way trade between KC, OAK and HOU

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 January 2005 22:47 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't think he's much more then a .500 pitcher these days.
-- bnw (rilke...), January 13th, 2004 9:49 PM.

haha I should be banned from posting on a baseball board.

bnw (bnw), Monday, 24 January 2005 22:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Gotta love those intangibles.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 24 January 2005 22:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Coincidentally, Clemens and Jeter will have identical salaries this year.

gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 January 2005 23:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Here is what McClane is talking about:

2004 - (92-70) Attendance 3087872 --Their highest attendance ever and a big playoff appearance with their first playoff series win in franchise history.

2003 - (87-75) Attendance 2454241 --They finished a game out of first and yet their attendance was a half million tickets down.

The Astros got a great year out of Clemens last year for below what it should have cost for a pitcher of his stature. Take the money that he made last year and add it to what he is making this next season and it most likely evens out. Criminy if I could get a 13 million dollar raise at work, I sure would put in for one.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 25 January 2005 00:37 (seventeen years ago) link

two months pass...
The old man can still pitch.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 01:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah but he's not off to nearly the start he was last year when he went 7-0. He needs to make the pitches to get the wins.

mattbot (mattbot), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link


Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 04:44 (seventeen years ago) link

he was a big deal to me as a kid, and a red-sox fan.

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:04 (twelve years ago) link

I like the ad that automatically appeared here

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:10 (twelve years ago) link

he was a big deal to me as a kid, and a red-sox fan.

Most Red Sox fans I know hate him more than practically any player I can think of.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:13 (twelve years ago) link

I've strongly disliked him for 20 years, but given the huge corporate financial crimes that are going completely unpunished in America I have a hard time cheering on this kind of prosecution.

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:15 (twelve years ago) link

Most Red Sox fans I know hate him more than practically any player I can think of.

maybe you know younger red-sox fans, who more strongly associate him as a (a) Yankee and (b) traitor?

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:18 (twelve years ago) link

They think he's a traitor + all of the other shit that happened after that.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Thursday, 19 August 2010 21:32 (twelve years ago) link

i don't know of a sox fan who doesn't hate him/view him as a traitor.

call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 August 2010 22:10 (twelve years ago) link

He would be an excellent addition to Lebron, Wade, and Bosh though.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Thursday, 19 August 2010 22:11 (twelve years ago) link

In Toronto, it's just weird that his whole career now seems to pivot on the two years he spent here. Or am I wrong? Is it the general feeling that he used after he left the Jays too, or just while he was here?

clemenza, Thursday, 19 August 2010 22:39 (twelve years ago) link

i think it's believed he used (w/mcnamee at least) in '98-'01, which covers his last season in toronto and first three w/the yankees.

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 19 August 2010 22:47 (twelve years ago) link

I sort of agree with Morbius above, but I don't think James would; I recall something in one of the Abstracts where he adamantly argued that part of being a fan is that you expect a higher standard of behaviour from these guys. Mind you, he wrote that 20+ years ago; I suppose by now that ship has long since sailed.

clemenza, Thursday, 19 August 2010 22:57 (twelve years ago) link

He would be an excellent addition to Lebron, Wade, and Bosh though.

if clemens will take a vet min contract, we'll sign him up

Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 19 August 2010 23:00 (twelve years ago) link

Clemens wasn't all that good (by his standards) from '99 - '01, really during his whole Yankee period. He was much better with Toronto and later on with Houston. If he was using only from '98-'01 then it's not reflected in the numbers (which isn't to say that it should be obvious from his numbers).

NoTimeBeforeTime, Thursday, 19 August 2010 23:53 (twelve years ago) link

anyone who thinks that steroids are so effective that they boost players' numbers by a big enough amount to be separable from the usual year to year variance is pretty delusional imo

ciderpress, Thursday, 19 August 2010 23:56 (twelve years ago) link

extensive but probably incomplete list of reason to not like Roger Clemens:

• if he wasn't pitching he wasn't with the team, the guy would rather be in his personal gym than support his teammates
• picking up the end of a broken bat and whipping it at Piazza was pretty lame
• claiming afterwards that he thought it was the ball was pathetic
• intentionally hitting guys that had hit him well was flat out cowardly - although i don't seem to recall "the rocket" doing this with the Astros when he actually had to man up to the plate himself
• he cheated on his wife several times
• possibly with a minor at one point
• and the steroids
• also the lying about it

oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 19 August 2010 23:57 (twelve years ago) link

xp even brady anderson?

call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 August 2010 23:58 (twelve years ago) link

• selfish and stupid enough to give all of his kids names starting with the letter "K", because he's a strikeout pitcher ya see

('_') (omar little), Friday, 20 August 2010 00:00 (twelve years ago) link

ah yes! i knew his poor daughter had some retarded name because of him.

oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 20 August 2010 00:02 (twelve years ago) link

• once punched a baby in the face – he later claimed the thought he was punching a nun

oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 20 August 2010 00:02 (twelve years ago) link

i think "the ball was juiced as much as the players" is a pretty reasonable argument for '97-'04 or whatever. you look at a dude like tony gwynn and what he did (relatively speaking) power-wise post-'96 and it's a jump. and i still remember this tv show i worked on where they ran a shitload of tests on a baseball from '98 and another one from a few years prior (maybe it was '88?) and the '98 ball was going on average about 10% farther. lots of factors probably played into the stats, though, and steroids was maybe part of it.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 20 August 2010 00:03 (twelve years ago) link

xp even brady anderson?

that's a huge fluke season, even if he was juicing. there's no logical way a player could suddenly gain 40-50HR power for a season and then lose it again just as quickly.

davey johnson had about as ridiculous a spike in 1973. it happens.

ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 00:42 (twelve years ago) link

I thought his first obv selfish moment was getting tossed from an LCS game ('90, right?) vs A's, telling the home plate ump "I'm not shaking my fucking head at you."

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 00:50 (twelve years ago) link

The ball argument doesn't make sense to me because aren't they still using that ball? But power numbers are way down since testing was ramped up, or am I wrong?

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Friday, 20 August 2010 02:28 (twelve years ago) link

they're not way down at all! they're down a little bit but still way up compared to the 80s and early 90s.

ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 02:37 (twelve years ago) link

the little spike in 1987 is attributed to a juiced ball iirc, but other than that year we're still way above the rest of pre-steroid-era history

ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 02:39 (twelve years ago) link

I guess I'm just looking at the HR leaderboards and wondering where the 50 homer guys are.

Also isn't this the year of the pitcher? ;-)

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Friday, 20 August 2010 02:54 (twelve years ago) link

That graph doesn't include 2010:

This year is the lowest HR/G since 1993. Also lowest TB since '93.

Probably a bit fluky though.

no gut busting joke can change history (polyphonic), Friday, 20 August 2010 02:58 (twelve years ago) link


sanskrit, Friday, 20 August 2010 03:36 (twelve years ago) link

-- acted like a dick to management and fans on the way out of Boston
-- acted like a dick to management and fans on the way out of Toronto
-- "retired" more times than Brett Favre, made a big drama out of it every time
-- used his "retirements" an excuse to switch teams, and to come back on his terms, on his schedule

NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 10:19 (twelve years ago) link

He better hope his case is more persuasive than the rug on his lawyer's head

kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 11:23 (twelve years ago) link

Stay strong, Clemens.

Andy K, Monday, 23 August 2010 17:08 (twelve years ago) link

one year passes...

last-ditch effort to push the hof clock back five years, eh?

mookieproof, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:36 (ten years ago) link

No idea where this is going, but 3.1 excellent innings in a 1-0 win.

clemenza, Sunday, 26 August 2012 04:12 (ten years ago) link

Bill Lee yesterday, Clemens today; I'd like to put in a request for either Luis Tiant or Ray Culp tomorrow.

clemenza, Sunday, 26 August 2012 04:18 (ten years ago) link

five months pass...

“Yes, that is sad news. I had heard over time that she was trying to get peace and direction in her life,” the 50-year-old Rocket’s statement read.
The few times that I had met her and her manager/agent they were extremely nice.”

Clemens had an extramarital affair with McCready for 10 years, from when she was age 15 to 25.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 05:00 (nine years ago) link

laws in Texas are kinda liberal, eh

saltwater incursion (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:13 (nine years ago) link

one year passes...

he will be appearing on a college baseball panel at the Houston SABR convention. The "gahhhhh cheaters!" septuagenarians will not be pleased.

images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 3 June 2014 19:56 (eight years ago) link

I used to really like Clemens as I just love watching that style of power pitching but boy he seems like a dirt bag.

You are better off not knowing I suppose...

earlnash, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 00:08 (eight years ago) link

two months pass...

Pinning down the Boyhood game:

I may be way off here, but I think the movie may rehabilitate Clemens somewhat in the public eye. Clemens, at this point, has been reduced to a symbol and a caricature. I know as I watched the scene myself, he was just Clemens again--it was the person, and it felt immediate.

clemenza, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 21:43 (eight years ago) link

i saw clemens pitch against the chisox at a spring training game in 1986. he signed my baseball. other people who signed that baseball that day: jim rice & johnny pesky. it's in a cardboard box, slowly dwindling in value.

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 22:59 (eight years ago) link

I would think in terms of Boston baseball lore, that would be a pretty desirable baseball. (I don't know--is Clemens still a villain there, or has enough time passed?)

clemenza, Thursday, 7 August 2014 00:04 (eight years ago) link

enough time has passed. no i think you're probably right. and it's That Team, too - Rich Gedman's on there. Steve Lyons. Marty fucking Barrett.

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 7 August 2014 09:12 (eight years ago) link

reading this thread for the first time and, damn, y'all are harsh.

Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 7 August 2014 17:26 (eight years ago) link

I have no beef with the Rocket though to be fair I was not a baseball fan in the 80s-90s so maybe it was different then. He made a good chicken in the Simpsons.

Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 7 August 2014 17:28 (eight years ago) link

eight years pass...

A comment by Bill James today--"I think (Teddy Higuera) probably had as many really great games as anybody in our lifetime did in a five-year period, not including the 1960s where you have Gibson and Koufax and Drysdale and others"--prompted me to look him up. I remember him as good, but I don't get this at all:

In '86, Clemens' breakthrough season, Clemens threw more innings than Higuera, gave up fewer runs, fewer earned runs, 50 fewer hits, fewer walks, fewer HR, and struck out 30 more batters. Higuera led in bWAR, though, 9.4 to Clemens' 8.8. I find this baffling. I mean, Clemens had one more HBP, three more balks, and eight more wild pitches, but how much does that count for? And Clemens pitched in Fenway.

clemenza, Saturday, 19 November 2022 03:53 (two weeks ago) link

Sent this in (big surprise) as an "Ask Bill," which in turn ended up as a Tom Tango tweet.

So, @baseball_ref does an OUTSTANDING job in laying out WHY their WAR numbers are what they are. You may disagree as to the individual components, but they are extremely transparent about it.

cc: @billjamesonline

So, let's take it, step by step...

— Tangotiger (@tangotiger) November 21, 2022

clemenza, Saturday, 26 November 2022 20:41 (one week ago) link

"Tom Tango tweet"--will one day rival "toy boat" as a tongue twister.

clemenza, Saturday, 26 November 2022 20:43 (one week ago) link

Clemons will always have the headwind of being a total asshole.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 26 November 2022 20:44 (one week ago) link

*Clemens. Fuck.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 26 November 2022 20:47 (one week ago) link

Read “Clemons” in the voice of Cajun man

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 27 November 2022 05:00 (one week ago) link

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