Roger Clemens - Classic Or Dud?

In the playoffs, the announcers kept making a point that Pedro was such a better pitcher than Clemens, but if you compare their stats at the same age, they are quite similar. I tend to doubt that Martinez will win three more Cy Young awards, which Clemens did after the same age.

It wouldn't have mattered if he pitched in the NL, he would have had the same kind of success. Gibson and Drysdale did the same kind of things and lived to tell.

The whole bat thing in the world series was blown out of proportion. He was tossing it up the line, I personally don't think he was tossing it at Piazza. He shouldn't of cracked him in the head in the first place, I'll give you that, but most of the great ones that play the game long have a one bad thing to live down. (I guess you can add getting kicked out in the first inning of that one playoff game against A's arguing balls & strikes, but that was a pretty quick hook.)

Other than Yaz and Nomar, Boston seems to have a tradition of somewhat despising their best players whether it is Ted Williams, Jim Rice or Clemens.

Of course if McNamara hadn't pinch hit for him in Game Six, Boston would have never come to hate him, or they would have come to hate him for a completely different reason.

Great pitcher, though.

i heard a rumor that tomko is insurance dependent upon schmidt's recovery from his offseason surgery to repair the torn tendon in his elbow.

I really want to see a foot-long sub move very slowly from the left side of the photo into his mouth.

The Cubbies needed some offense and got a huge pick up with Derrek Lee... he is like Vlad Guerrero in the sense that he can smack the ball all over (and off) the field and has speed and is a gold glover... all at a fraction of the cost. I'm very anxious to see his performance in comfy Wrigley as opposed to spacious Pro Player, I think his slugging will skyrocket (2003 home/away slugging = .419/.591).

I'm sure Clemens will be happy the first time a routine fly ball out to left becomes a three run homer.

I'd say Clemens chances of a having a decent season are about 50/50. When an athlete completely loses his skills, it sometimes comes suddenly and it isn't pretty (ask Emmitt Smith -- recent example). We will have to see if he is pushing it one year too long.

There definitely isn't any tears about David Wells leaving NY this time.

or are comparisons to old school bulldog types rendered moot b/c the rocket hasn't really had to bat?

clemens is a sociopath, and therefore a dud.

One has to admire a future hall of famer that can find common ground between Red Sox, Mets and Yankees fans by their mutual hating of him.

And regarding his batting, he already has 2 rbi and a sac bunt or two. The guy is not bad at handling the bat at all. He seems to get it in play most of the time.

If you hate Clemens, you have to hate every Nolan Ryan-and-before power pitcher, they all did the same things. Has anyone ever been seriously injured by the guy?

i'm not seeing the logic. i hate clemens because he got fat and lazy his last two years in boston, not showing up for spring training then showing up 30 lbs overweight for the last two weeks. he was a middling pitcher his last 4 years in a red sox uni and complained when he was offered a contract that would only mildly overpay him instead of wildly overpay him. then he got himself back in shape and signed with a division rival solely for the cash. two years later he screws the jays over too and signs with the yankees where he suddenly relizes he was meant to be in pinstripes or some such nonsense. after much pomp and circumstance he announces what turns out to be a WWF-style "retirement" that lasted almost a whole off-season.

yeah i hate the guy but it has nothing to do with being a power pitcher. i measure a man by whether or not he does what he says he'll do, the rocket's word isn't worth shit to me.

However, as is my custom, when a player comes to my team, all sins are forgiven and judgements are made based on what he does in an Astros uniform.

And what he is doing on the field right now is flat-out amazing.

Pre-2004: Dud
2004: Classic

Clemens is a FAR better pitcher than Ryan, but he'll not be hanging around long enough to pass him in Ks.

I wonder if Clemens thanks Dan Duquette for inadvertently putting the foot in his ass following his less-than-glorious departure from Fenway. And didn't Clemens break from his Blue Jay contract specifically to get traded / become a free agent?

Is it just me, or should the reps of Clemens and Bonds be swapped? If Bonds had 1/100th of Clemens' affability when it comes to schmoozing, he'd probably be just as oddly untarnished as the Model Rocket is, despite Clemens' list of wrongs putting Bonds' list to shame.

7 IP, 3 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 11 K

7-0

Astros record pre-6/24*: 38-34 (52.7% win percent)
Clemens stats pre-6/24*: 19 Starts, 10-2, 2.73 ERA

Astros record post-6/24*: 54-36 (60.0% win percent)
Clemens stats post-6/24*: 14 Starts, 8-2, 3.41 ERA

*date of Beltran 3-way trade between KC, OAK and HOU

haha I should be banned from posting on a baseball board.

2004 - (92-70) Attendance 3087872 --Their highest attendance ever and a big playoff appearance with their first playoff series win in franchise history.

2003 - (87-75) Attendance 2454241 --They finished a game out of first and yet their attendance was a half million tickets down.

The Astros got a great year out of Clemens last year for below what it should have cost for a pitcher of his stature. Take the money that he made last year and add it to what he is making this next season and it most likely evens out. Criminy if I could get a 13 million dollar raise at work, I sure would put in for one.

he was a big deal to me as a kid, and a red-sox fan.

I like the ad that automatically appeared here

he was a big deal to me as a kid, and a red-sox fan.

Most Red Sox fans I know hate him more than practically any player I can think of.

I've strongly disliked him for 20 years, but given the huge corporate financial crimes that are going completely unpunished in America I have a hard time cheering on this kind of prosecution.

Most Red Sox fans I know hate him more than practically any player I can think of.

maybe you know younger red-sox fans, who more strongly associate him as a (a) Yankee and (b) traitor?

They think he's a traitor + all of the other shit that happened after that.

i don't know of a sox fan who doesn't hate him/view him as a traitor.

He would be an excellent addition to Lebron, Wade, and Bosh though.

In Toronto, it's just weird that his whole career now seems to pivot on the two years he spent here. Or am I wrong? Is it the general feeling that he used after he left the Jays too, or just while he was here?

i think it's believed he used (w/mcnamee at least) in '98-'01, which covers his last season in toronto and first three w/the yankees.

I sort of agree with Morbius above, but I don't think James would; I recall something in one of the Abstracts where he adamantly argued that part of being a fan is that you expect a higher standard of behaviour from these guys. Mind you, he wrote that 20+ years ago; I suppose by now that ship has long since sailed.

He would be an excellent addition to Lebron, Wade, and Bosh though.

if clemens will take a vet min contract, we'll sign him up

Clemens wasn't all that good (by his standards) from '99 - '01, really during his whole Yankee period. He was much better with Toronto and later on with Houston. If he was using only from '98-'01 then it's not reflected in the numbers (which isn't to say that it should be obvious from his numbers).

anyone who thinks that steroids are so effective that they boost players' numbers by a big enough amount to be separable from the usual year to year variance is pretty delusional imo

extensive but probably incomplete list of reason to not like Roger Clemens:

• if he wasn't pitching he wasn't with the team, the guy would rather be in his personal gym than support his teammates
• picking up the end of a broken bat and whipping it at Piazza was pretty lame
• claiming afterwards that he thought it was the ball was pathetic
• intentionally hitting guys that had hit him well was flat out cowardly - although i don't seem to recall "the rocket" doing this with the Astros when he actually had to man up to the plate himself
• he cheated on his wife several times
• possibly with a minor at one point
• and the steroids
• also the lying about it

xp even brady anderson?

• selfish and stupid enough to give all of his kids names starting with the letter "K", because he's a strikeout pitcher ya see

ah yes! i knew his poor daughter had some retarded name because of him.

• once punched a baby in the face – he later claimed the thought he was punching a nun

i think "the ball was juiced as much as the players" is a pretty reasonable argument for '97-'04 or whatever. you look at a dude like tony gwynn and what he did (relatively speaking) power-wise post-'96 and it's a jump. and i still remember this tv show i worked on where they ran a shitload of tests on a baseball from '98 and another one from a few years prior (maybe it was '88?) and the '98 ball was going on average about 10% farther. lots of factors probably played into the stats, though, and steroids was maybe part of it.

xp even brady anderson?

that's a huge fluke season, even if he was juicing. there's no logical way a player could suddenly gain 40-50HR power for a season and then lose it again just as quickly.

davey johnson had about as ridiculous a spike in 1973. it happens.

I thought his first obv selfish moment was getting tossed from an LCS game ('90, right?) vs A's, telling the home plate ump "I'm not shaking my fucking head at you."

The ball argument doesn't make sense to me because aren't they still using that ball? But power numbers are way down since testing was ramped up, or am I wrong?

they're not way down at all! they're down a little bit but still way up compared to the 80s and early 90s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MLB_HR_and_SB_rates.png

the little spike in 1987 is attributed to a juiced ball iirc, but other than that year we're still way above the rest of pre-steroid-era history

I guess I'm just looking at the HR leaderboards and wondering where the 50 homer guys are.

Also isn't this the year of the pitcher? ;-)

That graph doesn't include 2010:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/bat.shtml

This year is the lowest HR/G since 1993. Also lowest TB since '93.

Probably a bit fluky though.

CLEMENS RULES SNITCHES

http://natnotes.com/wp-content/uploads/opposition/roger_clemens_wife.jpg

-- acted like a dick to management and fans on the way out of Boston
-- acted like a dick to management and fans on the way out of Toronto
-- "retired" more times than Brett Favre, made a big drama out of it every time
-- used his "retirements" an excuse to switch teams, and to come back on his terms, on his schedule

He better hope his case is more persuasive than the rug on his lawyer's head

Stay strong, Clemens.

http://twitter.com/KFUCKINGP/status/21607687499

last-ditch effort to push the hof clock back five years, eh?

No idea where this is going, but 3.1 excellent innings in a 1-0 win.

http://atlantic.bbstats.pointstreak.com/boxscore.html?gameid=78728

Bill Lee yesterday, Clemens today; I'd like to put in a request for either Luis Tiant or Ray Culp tomorrow.

“Yes, that is sad news. I had heard over time that she was trying to get peace and direction in her life,” the 50-year-old Rocket’s statement read.
“The few times that I had met her and her manager/agent they were extremely nice.”

Clemens had an extramarital affair with McCready for 10 years, from when she was age 15 to 25.

laws in Texas are kinda liberal, eh

he will be appearing on a college baseball panel at the Houston SABR convention. The "gahhhhh cheaters!" septuagenarians will not be pleased.

I used to really like Clemens as I just love watching that style of power pitching but boy he seems like a dirt bag.

You are better off not knowing I suppose...

Pinning down the Boyhood game:

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/which-astros-game-did-the--boyhood--characters-attend-164003306.html

I may be way off here, but I think the movie may rehabilitate Clemens somewhat in the public eye. Clemens, at this point, has been reduced to a symbol and a caricature. I know as I watched the scene myself, he was just Clemens again--it was the person, and it felt immediate.

i saw clemens pitch against the chisox at a spring training game in 1986. he signed my baseball. other people who signed that baseball that day: jim rice & johnny pesky. it's in a cardboard box, slowly dwindling in value.

I would think in terms of Boston baseball lore, that would be a pretty desirable baseball. (I don't know--is Clemens still a villain there, or has enough time passed?)

enough time has passed. no i think you're probably right. and it's That Team, too - Rich Gedman's on there. Steve Lyons. Marty fucking Barrett.

reading this thread for the first time and, damn, y'all are harsh.

I have no beef with the Rocket though to be fair I was not a baseball fan in the 80s-90s so maybe it was different then. He made a good chicken in the Simpsons.

A comment by Bill James today--"I think (Teddy Higuera) probably had as many really great games as anybody in our lifetime did in a five-year period, not including the 1960s where you have Gibson and Koufax and Drysdale and others"--prompted me to look him up. I remember him as good, but I don't get this at all:

In '86, Clemens' breakthrough season, Clemens threw more innings than Higuera, gave up fewer runs, fewer earned runs, 50 fewer hits, fewer walks, fewer HR, and struck out 30 more batters. Higuera led in bWAR, though, 9.4 to Clemens' 8.8. I find this baffling. I mean, Clemens had one more HBP, three more balks, and eight more wild pitches, but how much does that count for? And Clemens pitched in Fenway.

Sent this in (big surprise) as an "Ask Bill," which in turn ended up as a Tom Tango tweet.

So, @baseball_ref does an OUTSTANDING job in laying out WHY their WAR numbers are what they are. You may disagree as to the individual components, but they are extremely transparent about it.

cc: @billjamesonline

So, let's take it, step by step...https://t.co/ipZtAEsuaB pic.twitter.com/QA6Eqbh5l8

— Tangotiger (@tangotiger) November 21, 2022

"Tom Tango tweet"--will one day rival "toy boat" as a tongue twister.

Clemons will always have the headwind of being a total asshole.

*Clemens. Fuck.

Read “Clemons” in the voice of Cajun man