Sources tell SI Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003

instead let's just assume he's been using HGH and Flubber since high school.

"For the sake of argument, are we accepting that he's been "clean" the last 4 seasons because he hasn't failed a test?"

Don't really see why anyone should accept this, frankly.

instead let's just assume he's been using HGH and Flubber since high school.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:11 PM (29 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well thats def a more reasonable assumption than just believing he did it only during that time for which he got caught

basically the standard of "knowledge" we have to accept about 2004-08 is he HASN'T been using, cuz anything else is just Witchhunt City. maybe maybe maybe.

oh "reasonable," ridiculous

btw "that time for which he got caught" is just '03

"basically the standard of "knowledge" we have to accept about 2004-08 is he HASN'T been using, cuz anything else is just Witchhunt City. maybe maybe maybe."

I think basic standard here is for most people taking steroids = cheating and people don't trust people who cheat. If A-Rod doesn't like it, well fuck him.

why i think a-rod is telling the truth:

- the rangers were basically the roid version of a meth lab around that time, apparently
- maybe living up to that new contract was a good reason to do it in his mind
- he maybe would have stopped when he came to new york because ny was perceived as a little less, uh, "loosey goosey" when it came to steroids?

why i think he's lying:

- steroids were everywhere else too, apparently
- the new contract reasoning is bullshit, the guy didn't need to do more than he had previously in order to live up to it
- if he started juicing in texas to live up to the fans and the team's expectations, why would he stop in nyc, where expectations were so much higher?

theres totally not reliable data to conduct a statistical analysis - neyer is just playing in lol wtf ill give it a shot mode

well it's a good thing those other 103 names aren't coming out (maybe) so fans' list of who not to trust will stay short.

where's all the 'lack of trust' for Andy Pettitte?

dude pettitte has a close personal relationship w/god so thats all i need to know pretty much

icey, u who "does not like baseball," do you know what Neyer's whole identity as a writer is? He just became one of the first 3 members of the BB writers' assoc who built his reputation on statistical analysis.

i think that the perception is that sluggers and power pitchers are the types who already have an edge and the PEDs would just enhance those skills, whereas slap hitters and crafty lefties would use them just to deal with injuries or get a little more pop and therefore it's not as bad. i don't agree with this btw but this might be the reason.

where's all the 'lack of trust' for Andy Pettitte?

Andy took HGH after an injury, right? And A-Rod took the same stuff that Bonds took

it could be said that "i used hgh for a month after an injury" is more reasonable and plausible than "i used steroids i don't even know the names of for three years in a city where i've already alienated the fanbase and then just woke up one day and decided it wasn't worth it."

btw i think the general consensus seems to be that a-rod >>>> clemens, bonds, palmeiro, mcgwire, sosa as far as perception and damage to image for at least admitting it (though of course i guess he kinda HAD to)

i think that's a huge distinction in circumstance imo.

had he admitted it in the couric interview then yes, pretty fucking ballsy and renegade. however, after his name is leaked to an official test performed by MLB, he really had no choice.

whereas clemens, bonds, palmeiro, mcgwire, sosa never tested positive... or perhaps their names haven't been leaked yet.

and if a-rod didn't have their awful examples to learn from who knows what he would have done?

palmeiro did test positive!

omg hahaha, i forgot.

have any other big names tested positive since 04?

palmeiro did test positive!

but that was just a vitamin shot he got miggy tejada

biggest names i recall are mike cameron and jay gibbons, but maybe that was just for HGH?

man if raffy hadn't come back that last year to get 3000 hits no one would have ever known, right?

man - what happens if Pujols' turns out to be one of those 103?!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p18/dathbgboy/JesseJacksoncryin.gif

btw, I am skipping the morning session of the NYC SABR meeting on Saturday so I don't have to listen to Kirk Radomski.

I'll be pretty surprised if Pujols isn't on there.

The training standard until the 1990s was that if Joe "Ducky" Medwick didn't do it in the '30s, then it shouldn't be done... Many teams even fined or suspended players if they were caught pumping iron. Weightlifting is now as much a part of every team's regimen as shagging fly balls.

Alex Rodriguez is set to be the next former slugger torn to pieces by columnists, fans and the sports radio blabbocracy. They all need to crack open some Michael Phelps medicinal magic and relax. Rodriguez may not deserve your pity, but he hardly deserves your scorn. Reserve that for the owners, political leaders and Bud the commissioner--who robbed our cities blind and distracted us with dingers so we wouldn't notice.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090223/zirin

xpost Really? I know 104 is a big number, but I have no faith that the dudes who tested positive in 2003 are anywhere near all the dudes who were juicing around that time. Like, didn't the players all know that serious (albeit anonymous) testing would take place that year? And don't forget there are cases like Bonds--who didn't test positive in those tests, but whose sample, when tested with newer technology, showed PEDs.

icey, u who "does not like baseball," do you know what Neyer's whole identity as a writer is? He just became one of the first 3 members of the BB writers' assoc who built his reputation on statistical analysis.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:22 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah i know who neyer is used to read him all the time when i liked baseball - my point was his tone in the article was ok imna base this on the lol assumption that we actually know when arod did drugs - and then u posted it all serious like to support yr typically contrarian pov

i really can't underestimate the whole psychology behind using them. i mean if you feel like everyone around you is using them and getting a leg up on you, maybe even making you look bad on the field, you're likely tempted to keep up with it. especially if you have other players around you who are telling you or advising you to give it a shot (as it were). so i totally understand and in some ways don't completely blame the players. the culture is what's fucked, not the individuals.

icey, yr reading of Neyer's tone doesn't compute -- the first thing after the quote is "Not a real shock here, folks." (of course we don't KNOW when he did drugs anymore than we KNOW how they affected his play)

couple of things:

everyone now knows the tired old thing about how ballplayers never used to do strength training, drank, smoked, and ate fried chicken everyday. I don't know what this has to do with PEDs. At this point in time, it's retarded to take a viewpoint that they're next in a logical progression or whatever.

there's plenty of blame to go around for players, owners, unions, and politicians. the culture was insidious and multifaceted. taking a stand for the players against the media/owners/mlb whoever isn't some clever contrarian position. if there are sides to this, it's the baseball institution vs. the baseball-loving public.

i totally understand why players use, and why someone who invested an extreme amount of effort in reaching the pinnacle of their profession would do something questionable to stay there. but this doesn't make it right and isn't an excuse. to me, the greatest tragedy of arod's positive test is that he was a guy who didn't need it.

No one said the progression was logical, just that people are doing different things now from what they were doing then.

well in that case, that is a salient and insightful point.

dudes been on goofballs n pixie dust sine jr high so theres really no way to know if he didnt really need it

actually morbs quoted that nation piece out of context. the author is actually trying to explain the home-run era through weight training, equipment, the strike zone, etc. etc.

ironically, these are the exact same arguments that were used to explain away big mac and sosa and that whole era by the players, owners, unions, and media members he is telling us are really at fault!

Your sarcasm underlines the reason for bringing it up in the first place; there are a ton of variables that have shifted over baseball's existence. There are cases where you can point out individuals who have done particular things that have given them gigantic advantages over other players. We have decided on a largely arbitrary level to call some of them "good" and others "bad".

I still think at this point in time, the impact of steroids on baseball is more of a cultural impact than a performance impact.

i dont know how you quantify that but the home run record smashing of the early 00s is certainly the perfect storm of both those aspects

on variables shifting, completely totally agree. this is why i think legacy, cross-era comparisons, "the sanctity of the HoF," and a lot of similar stuff is dumb.

so yeah, i'm not too concerned with "figuring out" how this affected past performance, which is a fool's errand anyway. i am concerned with making it so that, going forward, the game is as on the level as it can be regarding substances. and i think a big part of getting there is making those other 103 names public.

all records are broken in favorable environments

(ie Roger fucking Maris and the short RF porch in Yankee Stadium)

bill spaceman lee talked of getting shot up with all sorts of stuff after his starts in the late 60s, granted some of it may have been low-grade steroids like cortisone but still... red juice, bennies, greenies, whites, crosstops... these things were not of media interest back in the day so there's not as extensive coverage of it.

I mean even when McGwire got caught with the Andro in his locker... that was OTC at the time.

Removing Bonds from the all-time HR list???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491644,00.html

should give the homerun crown to nomar imo

O_O

On Wednesday, news emerged that All-Star shortstop Miguel Tejada might be deported to the Dominican Republic after pleading guilty to lying to Congress about using steroids.

haaah ok it was fun for a while but this is really going just too far

MIGHT isn't the same as being on the next plane out of here.

I'm guessing one of the reasons he pled guilty was in the hopes that it would avoid getting the boot.

is this the funniest offseason ever?