The White Sox thread

re cabrera's d, not having espn puts me at disadvantage, but i don't recall ever reading anything about him being anything (or much) worse than an avg centerfielder, so i'm not going to bank everything on a couple lowlights i didn't even see.

Yeah - Herm might be having a great year, but I think he's on the Todd Jones juice, and will undoubtedly leave skidmarks if inked to a lucrative multi-year deal because HE GOT SAVE.

"That's just ignorant, man. The thing that made me mad is to talk about a guy [Alou] who worked very hard to be where he is, and then some idiot makes some comment and don't know what he's talking about."
--White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, on the controversial comments made by Larry Krueger (Newsday)

"It's ignorant. It's just ignorant. You have someone dealing with the media, dealing with people, to say something like that, that's ignorant, man."
--Guillen

"Hey, everybody, this guy's a homosexual! He’s a child molester!"
--Guillen, in jest, harassing a clubhouse passerby just moments later

According to the original story (also portrayed inaccurately and threateningly, IMO) in Newsday, it was NOT a passerby.

Here is what apparently transpired, with a helping of innuendo and a barely veiled threat to Ozzie to "keep his mouth shut" (hard to read the thing as anything but racist).

But what Guillen said last night falls into an entirely different category. No more than a minute after the pens stopped scribbling his comments about Krueger, Guillen recognized a man standing outside the White Sox dugout. He smiled and waved. Then he addressed his adoring audience.

"Hey, everybody, this guy's a homosexual!" Guillen shouted. "He's a child molester!"

The man being so addressed took no apparent offense. The two men hugged and laughed. But the feeling that lingered was of a comedian who had remained on stage for one joke too many. The juxtaposition of righteous indignation followed almost immediately by incredible insensitivity would actually have been funny if it had not been so uncomfortable. And hypocritical, not to mention offensive."

The article contradicts itself, first of all. Guillen is saying that the same guy he hugged - a friend, obviously is "a homosexual and child molester." Well, why would he say an awful, "offensive" thing like that about his friend? You don't think he's mocking the media and the tabloid tactics they use against players and managers, do you? No, that couldn't be. I mean, that just isn't done, so what we have to do is take his quotes out of context and put an entirely ridiculous spin on them, spicing the whole thing with a veiled threat to Ozzie to "keep his mouth shut".....or what, Mr. Matthews? You'll see to it that more garbage gets printed about him?

This had nothing to do with homosexuality, "codes of culture" or whatever, and the writer knows that. It had everything to do with the veiled threats and innuendo made by some people in the media. Guillen's mouth is "his own worst enemy" only if the media decide to make it so. Typical New York attitude: "it IS so if I merely SAY it's so". Sorry, but I'm not offended. I guess that makes the writer's take on it entirely subjective, as hard as it may be for him to swallow.

ihttp://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spwally094376867aug09,0,3553996.story

and then there's something i read on btf where he made a comment (in jest) about freddy garcia being gay. seriously...is ozzie 6 years old?

panic on the streets of chitown?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg181.html

That columnist seems to making a case for the "Podsednik for MVP" camp, as they have suffered without him.

how long had he actually been hurt before they put him on the dl? b/c it seems that some time in late july he hit a wall and became quite catchable.

If the lead can be whittled to 7 games by Labor Day... God knows what Ozzie will say.

He might slag off Magglio! Again!

not the best inning for RJ

I was there. That was completely crazy.

What the fuck?

Rally panties?

This behavior came to mind Sunday, when White Sox outfielder Timo Perez went to unusual lengths to try to help the team end a season-worst seven-game losing streak.

Perez decided to hang a pair of women's black panties--"extra wide" black panties--in the Sox's clubhouse at U.S. Cellular Field. The Sox went out and ended their streak with a 6-2 victory over the Yankees.

Perez wasn't around to discuss the, well . . . unmentionables, but teammate Aaron Rowand did.

"We had the `Rally Panties' up today," Rowand said. "A woman's undergarment--a large undergarment--was our rallying flag."

So while the Angels had their "Rally Monkey" in their 2002 World Series championship season, the innovative Sox offer up "Rally Panties." Whatever works, I suppose.

Rowand said he would have chosen a less titillating tactic to end the losing streak. "I almost changed the CD in my car on the way to the ballpark, but I decided not to," he said.

Bill Veeck would be proud.

Bill Veeck would incorporate them into the uni.

The White Sox are so losing in the first round of the playoffs, it's not even funny.

how so? the AL looks way too tight for me to be comfortable saying anything like that.

Well, that mediocre offensive attack definitely helps make MIR's prediction look pretty solid.

It's looking like they're going to limp into the playoffs, which normally isn't a good sign. They've played .500 ball over the last month+, and their Pythagorean record is starting to catch up with them -- five games over their expected W-L record, down from seven or eight at their peak. Chicago, LA, Oak, NYY, Boston, and Toronto are all within two or three games of each other according to Pythagoras, which is a better indication of how good these teams actually are. Like Dave said, the lack of offense is largely to blame.

The pitching is still solid (3rd in MLB ERA), but Garland and Buerhle have dropped off from their strong first halves, and Garcia's been a bit inconsistent. To get all Bill Simmons for a moment: if your life depended on it, would YOU want Dustin Hermanson closing out Game 5 of the ALDS? LA and Oakland have a better front three right now, and that's crucial in the playoffs, particularly in the first round when you only need three starters. Boston (if Schilling pitches well) and arguably Cleveland also have starting pitching from their front three right now.

yeah, those are good points, but all of those teams (poss exceptions of anaheim & oakland) are flawed enough that, combined w/ the randomness of the short series, i wouldn't be eager to bet against them.

[xpost]

And don't forget about El Duque's skidmarkery. And Contreras isn't all that reliable either - he's been godlike this month (aside from an average WHIP), but his July and June look REAL scary. Also: the team OBP of .320 is only better than the M's and the Royales, and tied w/ the Pierats.

and i'm sure their SLG is heavily cell-aided. RHH must hit more opposite field home runs out of that park than any other.

Actually, the one team that really worries me (as a Sox fan) is Cleveland! Their lineup is ridiculously solid (aside from The Boone, who's actually been vaguely respectable of late), their starting staff is solid - if your worst starter, numbers-wise, is CC Sabathia, you're OK - and the bullpen is very very good (tho I'd like them to ditch Bob Wickman at a McD's rest stop, if possible). Oakland's starting staff is better, and their bullpen matches up well with Cleveland's (tho missing Arthur Rhodes sucks for the Tribe), but I'd rather have Cleveland's line-up (assuming Peralta doesn't shit the bed in the next 6 weeks).

I would like to challenge your guys' hate on Hermanson.

His WHIP is 1.09 this year. That ranks 7th in MLB behind Rivera, Wagner, Guardado, Todd Jones, Huston Street, and Chad Cordero for all MLB closers. His ERA is also 7th in MLB for all closers at 1.76.

Up until he was overused with SF last year he was a more than servicable closer saving 16 games in 2 months of August and September with a WHIP of 1.14 and an ERA of 3.20.

His starts in early 2004 and fatigue (he pitched 9 straight games in Sept/Oct 2004) in the 2nd half masks his value as a closer.

yeah i think they're underrated because they're cleveland & because they have little in the way of impact talents (peralta and hafner tho, jaysus). but yeah they do look like a solid if unimpressive team.

(xpost)

Cleveland has to win at home. I can't believe their road record is miles better than their home record and yet it is.

it's not a law, but typically elite relievers strike guys out by the truckload. hermanson doesn't do that; his k-rate is a paltry 5/9 IP and his k/bb is under two. his HR rate is uninspiring & he's not a groundball pitcher. i think all dave is saying, and i think we'd all agree, is that, as elite relievers go, this guy is pretty mediocre. compare his peripherals other than hits allowed to those guys you mentioned and i think he'll grade out pretty poorly. i'd rather have a guy w/ better stuff (and as i've said before, the sox have those guys) closing out my games.

however hermanson is certainly a good example of how easy it can be to manufacture a closer. he could definitely be 'serviceable' (a 3-somthing era doesn't seem at all out of the question), but he's even more definitely not a great reliever.

Let me offer this out there, as of right now:

Dustan Hermanson is as good of a closer as Dontrelle Willis is as a starter.

I might even venture to say "better", but I'll just leave them as equal entities and let John go on a posting frenzy for a few hours until I come back.

what the hell am i supposed to even say to that?

How about the following:

hahahahah ahahahahhah ahahahh hahahahahaha hahahah hahahahah hahaha

Also, regarding this: yeah i think they're underrated because they're cleveland & because they have little in the way of impact talents (peralta and hafner tho, jaysus).

Please see what Victor Martinez & Grady Sizemore have done since May. Also of note: Coco Crisp's May, June, and August. (Please note that I have more faith in the first two than the 3rd.)

OK, I can't let this slide: "Dustan Hermanson is as good of a closer as Dontrelle Willis is as a starter."

DONG DONG DONG. Given D-Train's year, a closer would have to be like prime Eckersley or Gagne or Mariano to even be thought of as equal, especially given the number of innings they DON'T pitch in comparison to a 200ish IP starter guy of the Train Version 2K5's caliber. And, like John D ably showed, Herm is not even close - being a high-rent Kolb gets you as far as the Brave doghouse. And getting on yr anti-Dontrelle hobby horse to bloviate like that is the stuff of internet board asshattery. Of course, so is responding to said asshattery, so, um, well played and kudos.

The mid-'60s Dodgers, '73 Mets and '88 Dodgers got pretty far with "mediocre offensive attacks."

I don't understand the 'Chisox out in the LDS' chorus ... sure it could happen, but as likely not. Weren't the 116-win Mariners relatively hot going into October? Weren't some of those Atlanta teams? As far as I know, no factors correlate especially well with postseason success, be it killer offense, late-season streaks, Joe Morgan's "veteran emotion" etc. I know Neyer wrote a column suggesting the Sox could do well in October recently, I think the gist was front-line pitching.

Hermanson leads the AL in Relievers Expected Wins Added:

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/?report=52

gygax i don't know how serious you are, but they're both relatively unknown quanties w/ unremarkable stuff, and "as good an x as y is a z" equations can get a little confusing anyway. but um, no. hermanson is like 35 w/ a woeful track record and has clearly been lucky this year. willis is 23, has a v good track record w/ intermittent flashes of brilliance, and, while also lucky this year, is almost definitely not as far over his head as your boy hermie.

now bear with me while i gently remove this hook from my mouth & spit out your little worm.

(haha it was getting to you too dave!)

Read what I wrote: I didn't say that Hermanson was as good of a pitcher as Willis is, just that he's as good/better in his respective role.

Hermanson is 32, hardly washed up.

Hermanson is one of the 7 most effective closers in the game this season, could the same be said of Willis of MLB starters? Of NL starters?

Why should a closer NEED to be a strikeout pitcher? That makes no sense.

closer:K::batter:HR?

Hermanson is hardly an unknown quantity. He was a high 1st round pick, and looked really good early on for the Padres/Expos. He was excellent for the Giants before the bottom fell out last year.

As far as Willis goes, his stats say that he has been somewhere between the 5th and 15th best starting pitcher in baseball by virtually any measure:

2.67 ERA (7th MLB)
2.68 ERC (9th MLB)
124 k (32 MLB)
178.2 IP (7 MLB)
6 CG (tied 1 MLB)
5 SO (1 MLB)
18 QS (t 9th)
1.13 WHIP (11th MLB)
3.15 DIPS (8th MLB)
.644 Opp. OPS (14th MLB)

His strikeout stats are obviously his main drawback, but not to the point that he's hurting his team.

a closer doesn't NEED to be a strikeout pitcher. it's just that the best relievers ARE.

and the truth is being a top 10 reliever over one season, esp. when combined w/ unlikely peripherals, just doesn't mean a whole lot. unknowns enter that group one year and drop from it the next all the time. it's a tiny sample size.

Hermanson totally got worked by the scorer on that play! That was a total error!!!

or maybe he just SUCKS

or a WINNER (but seriously that scorer is a total homer for not calling that infield double an error).

HOW do you double to 2nd base?

That was no error. That was a foul ball, and a blown call by the home plate ump, screwing Garland out of another W.

HermansonSchmermanson. If all goes well, Jenks should be the closer next year, and a dominate one.

What are the Chicago papers like today?

Panicky, sweaty, annoying. What you would expect.

All that and more, with some choice Ozzie quotes.

they should worry about staying ahead of Boston or the Yanks, now.

i mean honestly if i'm a NY or Boston fan, I might be more worried than if I'm a White Sox fan. Cleveland looks postseason bound, division title or not.