"the impossibility of true noir in our modern world, which automatically means the world of the 1930s and 1940s too."
This makes no sense.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:43 (eighteen years ago) link
Um, no. The look of a film noir is crucial, yes, but theme and tone are just as important.http://www.filmsite.org/filmnoir.html
Also: narrative.http://www.moderntimes.com/palace/inv_noir.htm
I have always read "The Long Goodbye" like this:1. This is a Raymond Chandler novel set in 1970s California.2. It couldn't really be taken seriously now, because of sexual liberation and changes in the culture; this story could never happen now. 3. But noir never really "happened", it was a film movement based on books and Geman Expressionist films to begin with.4. Therefore, the whole idea of people buying into that aesthetic is bullshit. There was never any code, there were never hardboiled detectives serving as knights-errant in the degraded landscape of America. 5. Which is why, if Terry Lennox really treated Marlowe the way he does in Chandler's original novel, Marlowe TOTALLY would have shot him to death. In a heartbeat.
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link
"Which is why, if Terry Lennox really treated Marlowe the way he does in Chandler's original novel, Marlowe TOTALLY would have shot him to death. In a heartbeat."
Nothing in any of the Marlowe novels indicate to me that he would have done that.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link
But they are both fictional characters. They don't exist. There's a whole code and mythology there, but it's not like we are actually examining the actions of real people. In fact, I'm always surprised that the novel was written in 1953, which was really late for Chandler, Marlowe, and this genre in general.
I think what Altman is saying in the movie (and what I was trying to say above) is that if there was a REAL Terry Lennox and he REALLY treated a REAL Marlowe like that, and it was a film 1973 instead of a film 1953, there would be more than just a bitch session and a disgusted sigh.
Alex I'm not trying to be an asshole here
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link
X-Post: For what it's worth, I figured Marlowe did what he did in the movie as a way of punishing Lennox for everything he was directly and indirectly responsible for that had happened. Lennox would have gotten off scot-free.
― Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:46 (eighteen years ago) link
Nightmare Alley and Detour - both about as uber-classic as it gets
Blood On The Moon - an odd one because it's a noir western, but it works for two reasons: 1. Robert Mitchum. 2. Robert Wise directs.
― The Equator Lounge (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 19:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 19:16 (eighteen years ago) link
Marlowe punishes him in the book by not being his friend basically.
"I think what Altman is saying in the movie (and what I was trying to say above) is that if there was a REAL Terry Lennox and he REALLY treated a REAL Marlowe like that, and it was a film 1973 instead of a film 1953, there would be more than just a bitch session and a disgusted sigh."
And that's one of the reasons why the film is a failure, because I think that Altman is WRONG.
"Sure, in the novel of The Long Goodbye, Marlowe doesn't shoot Lennox at all, just bitches him out. To that extent, you're right."
Also I could be wrong here, but I don't think Marlowe ever shoots ANYONE in any of the novels!
"In fact, I'm always surprised that the novel was written in 1953, which was really late for Chandler, Marlowe, and this genre in general."
It was the second to last Marlowe novel and it was far more ambitious in scope and (dare I say it) less noir-ish than his previous ones.
"That's another thing that sets Out Of The Past apart - it's low on shadows!"
But high on darkness!
Also I have that book you mention and I have read it.
"Search: DOA (original)Destroy: DOA (remake)"
You can destroy the remake of Out of the Past, Against All Odds while you are at it hah.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 19:22 (eighteen years ago) link
And The Long Goodbye (the movie) is about as far from most noir in theme and tone as can be!
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 19:28 (eighteen years ago) link
But I understand your reservations about it all.
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link
I recall the summit meeting with Marty Augustine being kinda shadowy...
Among Gould's most essential dialogue is "This is where I say ... then you say..."
Anyone seen the trailer for the Sundance noir where Joseph Gordon-Levitt is the dick -- in HIGH SCHOOL?
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:21 (eighteen years ago) link
The greatest of noir heroes in a novel about the greatest of noir heroes crumbling and becoming disillusioned and irrelevant by the best noir writer (this is debateable btw) who was fumbling at the time with his own direction/pretensions. And anyway whatever the source material, Altman completely pulled it away from that anyway.
"It's still a story about a man pitted against society, out of touch with the vulgarity of his time, trying to do the right thing in an ugly world, which is one of the major noir themes."
But I see only a little of the first (certainly Gould's Marlowe is no more pitted against it than say any of the counter-culture figures of the moment), none of the second (he seems totally of and comfortable with his time), and gah-wha? I guess but on the final one that's pretty much the theme of like "life" ya know and not real exclusive to noir
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link
But I do have a question: who's a better noir writer? James Cain is the only other real candidate, right? And I love Cain, so if that's yr choice I can get behind that.
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:49 (eighteen years ago) link
The Driver
― Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 22:56 (eighteen years ago) link
White Heat is on TCM tonight in teh wee hours.
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 00:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 02:54 (eighteen years ago) link
Robert Mitchum C/D, S/D
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 03:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I haven't seen The Big Sleep for some reason, but can anyone tell me if my favorite line made it into the movie? - "Mr. Cobb was my escort," she said. "Such a nice escort, Mr. Cobb. So attentive. You should see him sober. I should see him sober. Somebody should him sober. I mean, just for the record. So it could become a part of history, that brief flashing moment, soon buried in time, but never forgotten--when Larry Cobb was sober."
― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Thursday, 16 February 2006 06:39 (eighteen years ago) link
and The Empire Strikes Back. (and she was a she)
Only Chandler book I've read is The Big Sleep; vastly prefer the film. Without the lighting and the actors blowing smoke in each others' face, on the page so much hardboiled fiction comes across as macho bullshit.
Scarlet Street is a remake of Renoir's 1931 La Chienne, which obv has the same plot, but in style is a sort of absurdist tragicomedy.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 16 February 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― J. Lamphere (WatchMeJumpStart), Thursday, 16 February 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link
Ha! I might have done the same back in the day. I might also have confused C.L. Moore with the title character in Cordwainer Smith's "The Ballad Of Lost C'Mell."
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Friday, 17 February 2006 05:36 (eighteen years ago) link
My top 5 Noir authors:1. Thompson2. Cain3. Willeford4. Chandler (props for inventing the genre could make him #1)5. Hammet
― steve ketchup, Sunday, 19 February 2006 17:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― J. Lamphere (WatchMeJumpStart), Monday, 20 February 2006 06:10 (eighteen years ago) link
Interesting how, to me, I think of Orson as being one of the personifications of noir, yet he isn't, really. Except that he used expressionism in everything he did (in b&w, at least). The only proper 'genre' picture he did is Lady from Shanghai -- which I'd mention as a recommendation as, even butchered as it is and with a horrible music score, is spectacular, premier league luncacy.
Some argument over Touch of Evil. Obviously not a noir, really, but close on a lot of points. (Ditto Third Man: not a hint of urban America in sight, though in every other sense a clear contender.)
I also like Double Indemnity a lot. I prefer it to Postman, because the two leads are, well, let's be honest, kinda UGLY compared to the beautiful Garfield and Turner, which makes it more interesting. The script is also better. Postman is kinda patchy and badly structured... it might be considered a poor film if not for the great lead performances raising the bar so high.
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Monday, 20 February 2006 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link
Fred and Barbara both bring the right kind of sweaty cheapness to their parts, Garfield and Turner in Postman aren't able to be as unlikeable as Cain characters need to be.
I guess Welles is just too much of himself to be included in a genre, sort of like you can't call Jimi Hendrix a bluesman even though he was a very good one. Orson with his big budgets and top-level crews was able to explore the imagery of noir more deeply than the "get it done in two weeks" directors ever had an opportunity to. Even some of Jane Eyre (which, like 3rd Man, he sort of co-directed just by being around) has noir in it.
What I like so much about Cain (& Thompson -"the dime store dostoyevsky" ) is their ability to get inside semi-repulsive characters -no Marlowe-style heroes in their stories- and allow one to understand (and even sympathize with) them, to follow the inner logic of their self-directed doom. To me that sort of cynicism (the kind that rules Detour) is what anchors the genre and what limits my rating of Chandler a bit. Just as authors, without the appended "noir" I agree that "Chandler is just straight out the best writer" of the lot.
― steve ketchup, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 00:09 (eighteen years ago) link
I've only read The Big Sleep of Chandler's, too. I liked it without necessarily totally loving it or feeling much for the characters. It's an exercise in style, really -- presumably, all of his work is? I think, due to truncation and change, the film makes even less sense. I could be contentious and argue that the book does almost make sense. :) It overdoes the atmospherics -- the crime equivalent of Lovecraft's fixation on ambience -- but no doubt it captures a lot of things brilliantly. I don't rate the film high on the noir scale, though. Sans Bogie and Bacall, it'd be a pretty minor effort.
Oh, I just picked up the DVD of Scarlet Street. It's an Elstree budget release, so no doubt from a worn theatrical print, but I don't remember ever seeing it and am looking forward to checking it out...
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:21 (eighteen years ago) link
Oh no way. HOWARD HAWKS! It would have been fantastic whoever was in it.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I didn't assume there was any sex with the bookseller, either. Maybe I missed something. :-/ I thought she kind of offered herself, but he was too preoccupied to take her up -- albeit with some regret? Oh no, I didn't miss an obvious visual metaphor anywhere, did I?!
Anyway, the film is lots of fun, don't get me wrong. But to me, not quite up there with Double Indemnity, Maltese Falcon, even Lady from Shanghai. (NTS: must watch that one again soon.)
What I'm looking forward to massively is this fab box-set of Mr. Arkadin from Criterion. (Um, Euro-noir?)
― _chrissie (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:38 (eighteen years ago) link
Jeez, he's not even credited with directing that, and the degree to which he did is uncertain.
btw the high school noir, Brick, is being released next month. Richard Roundtree is in it.
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:51 (eighteen years ago) link
i'm borrowing the lady in the lake from the library to remind myself if I feel like championing it or not
― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link
I recently saw John Boorman's Point Blank. I'm assuming maybe it doesn't exactly fit into the "noir" category, maybe neo-noir, "hollywood rennaissance"? I love how lots of people die in it and the main character's motivation is violence and revenge, but nobody gets killed by him. Such a fantastic movie with some very funny/brutal parts.
― -rainbow bum- (-rainbow bum-), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 16:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link
― a spectator bird (a spectator bird), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link
http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol17/issue09/screens.windsor.3.gif
― a spectator bird (a spectator bird), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 20:06 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Friday, 14 April 2006 02:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― James Redd and the Blecchs, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 03:51 (seventeen years ago) link
"I bet your the kind of man that does push-ups every morning just to keep his belly hard." "..You got something against good health?"
― poortheatre, Friday, 31 August 2007 09:28 (sixteen years ago) link
Just saw something about Richard Fleischer by Dave Kehr in the Times- a few films showing at the Walter Reade and Film Comment in the coming weeks.
― James Redd and the Blecchs, Sunday, 17 February 2008 01:32 (sixteen years ago) link
Oh man just saw Night and the City starring Richard Widmark. One of the bleakest noir films I've ever seen. Widmark is amazing in it.
― brownie, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 19:39 (sixteen years ago) link
Richard Fleischer thing starts on Friday at FF. It's in color- in Cinemascope!
― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 26 February 2008 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link
Wow this 1948 UK film Daughter of Darkness was just given dvd reissue by Redemption films. It's both British noir and femme fatale wrapped in one with plenty of chiaroscuro and gothic vibe. Definitely recommended.
http://www.thelmagazine.com/images/blogimages/2009/09/30/1254335093-daughterofdarkness.jpg
― Nate Carson, Sunday, 29 November 2009 22:40 (fourteen years ago) link
I think I'm noir illiterate. Watching the big sleep - drunk, granted - and I can't make a lick of sense out of it.
― pithfork (Hurting 2), Friday, 19 February 2010 05:17 (fourteen years ago) link
iirc an actor approached hawks before filming the scene for his death. "i know my lines, howard," he said, "but who kills me?" and hawks thinks for a second and says "well hell, i'm not sure. hang on." so he rings faulkner, who wrote the screenplay, and he asks him "hey bill, who kills this guy?" and faulkner says "damn howard, I'm not sure. hang on." and he telegrams chandler "who killed butler STOP hawks wants to know STOP"
next day hawks gets a telegram: "hell if i know--ray"
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 19 February 2010 05:38 (fourteen years ago) link
iyigd
― vag gangsta (k3vin k.), Friday, 19 February 2010 05:41 (fourteen years ago) link
why chandler had to telegram hawks when they were in the same city is beyond me, but i fuckin love that story
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 19 February 2010 05:45 (fourteen years ago) link
I thought Chandler's line was actually "who cares?" which I think is funnier.
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:10 (fourteen years ago) link
Isn't there some companion story of Hawks saying something to the effect that making that movie taught him that the plot didn't really have to make sense?
― the clones of tldr funkenstein (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:13 (fourteen years ago) link
the studio thought the original was boring and made him do reshoots. the result capitalized on the bogart-bacall relationship but made less sense.
hawks continued to make films whose scripts were well-crafted by conventional standards.
later people began to interview this great maestro, this incomparable innovator of cinematic form, and he made up some stories that made him sound cool but don't really accord with the facts.
― sharter the unstoppable ilx machine (history mayne), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:22 (fourteen years ago) link
I'll buy that.
― the clones of tldr funkenstein (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 19 February 2010 14:43 (fourteen years ago) link
the original cut is on the US DVD and it gives an explanation for the chauffeur's death.
― abanana, Saturday, 20 February 2010 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link
Anyone seen Nightmare Alley? I have seen most of the classics save, Detour and this. Think I like Kiss Me Deadly or Gun Crazy best.
― Hinklepicker, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:15 (fourteen years ago) link
Spent last week at the Noir City festival - always tremendous, especially with Eddie Muller's commentary.
― Jaq, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:28 (fourteen years ago) link
nightmare alley is good, tyrone power trying to ditch the pretty boy rep
― velko, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:34 (fourteen years ago) link
AFI Silver has just announced its 2019 Noir City DC lineup: https://silver.afi.com/Browsing/EventsAndExperiences/EventDetails/0000000010
Not sure yet which screenings I plan to attend, but a couple of them will be free co-presentations with the National Gallery of Art. And last year I liked Muller's intro to both versions of The Killers.
― Anne Hedonia (j.lu), Friday, 13 September 2019 17:05 (four years ago) link