Oh, that's interesting. bVII-I definitely could be a Mixolydian cadence but the metrical placement makes it hard for me to hear A as the I, since G is always on the downbeat.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 00:53 (three years ago) link
Right!
― timellison, Monday, 28 September 2020 01:02 (three years ago) link
Not that Rob Thomas's ears should be dispositive regarding anything but it is interesting (if unpleasant) to consider his version. He wimped out and sang it a fifth lower (so the chords are, or should be, C-D and the melody is built around the G triad in my hearing) - but look what he does to the first chord. He plays the C chord in second inversion (with G in the bass) and adds a 9th (D) as the highest voice, making it similar to a Gsus chord (with an add6). I think that suggests that he probably heard G as a centre.
https://youtu.be/6BPgTkuDU-0
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:29 (three years ago) link
I guess, as with the Corrs's version of "Dreams", the cover is imo less interesting because it is more conventional - but the conventionality does indicate something to me.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:34 (three years ago) link
Ha, in this live version, Jane's played it a semitone lower but they not only introduce the song with a vamp on the Db chord but actually end the song with a cadence on the Db triad, making it clear that the Gb and Ab chords were IV and V!
https://youtu.be/-PzoKyv9fvk
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:50 (three years ago) link
Wait, I was getting too excited about my thesis. They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:55 (three years ago) link
Clearly I need to watch TV and let my ears rest.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 02:05 (three years ago) link
Dreams is in A natural minor. They resolve to the A minor chord twice in the instrumental bridge before the see-saw from F to G resumes.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 28 September 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link
Yeah, A minor is what I was saying - thanks for spotting that in the bridge, though. Also, welcome if you're a new poster and hi if you're a new name for an old poster!
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 23:35 (three years ago) link
Yeah, welcome!
― Erdős-szám 69 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 00:22 (three years ago) link
They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.
tbf every band was ending songs with a ringing IV chord in '97
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 01:05 (three years ago) link
I hear "Jane Says" as IV-V as well and not Lydian. it's hard for me to feel any piece of music as truly Lydian though
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 01:06 (three years ago) link
Helen Reddy recently passed away, and it reminded me how much I love the chord progression in 'I Am Woman'. It feels like a classic country music modulation when the verse goes to a flat 3rd to set up the chorus in F. At least that's how I hear it playing, with the song being in G.
― campreverb, Friday, 9 October 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
i thought about "landslide" just now and how the melody strays from the repeating chord structure. thinking about what the "correct" chords would be. this just popped into my head so i haven't actually dug into it at all but to my ears it sounds like it could be re-harmonized.
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Friday, 23 October 2020 22:44 (three years ago) link
(i mean the verses)
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Friday, 23 October 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
Hm, we were singing/playing it recently and I just checked the sheet music - the verses mostly seem built around chord members to me. The chorus strays a little more, although a lot of it can just be explained as suspensions and anticipations. What were you thinking of?
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 17:19 (three years ago) link
specifically the "i saw my reflection in the snow covered hills" part
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 24 October 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
It seems to be the standard Buckingham/Nicks "withholding the I" idea that happens in "Dreams" and "I Think I'm In Trouble" and probably many others. The melody outlines the I chord but the chords themselves dodge it-- in "Landslide"'s verses we're going IV - I6 - ii - I6, that inversion is enough to feint the ear, I think.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 24 October 2020 20:37 (three years ago) link
Interesting: you would intuitively hear the Eb-Bb/D-Cm7-Bb/D progression as I-V6-vi-V6 in Eb and in the first verse, the melody mostly does outline the Eb chord. In the second verse, a lot of the Ebs in the melody become Ds and there's more of a suggestion of the Bb chord. It's not obvious to me that Bb is the tonal centre until the chorus, though, when the Bb chord finally appears on strong bars.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link
Wait, by "second verse" I meant the part that starts "mirror in the sky..." and by "first verse", I meant the part before that, although those aren't the same, actually.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:17 (three years ago) link
Actually, the line crüt mentions is the first that outlines Bb instead of Eb.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
I posted a question over here that may be of interest to some of you:
Halloween Music
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 28 October 2020 00:15 (three years ago) link
Can anyone recommend good books or videos or articles on the music theory of John Coltrane that goes a little beyond just “here’s how giant steps changes work” ?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 5 November 2020 01:19 (three years ago) link
Good question. Not me, sorry
― And Then There’s Maudit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 December 2020 22:40 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbj6bn6mZto
― And Then There’s Maudit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 December 2020 22:41 (three years ago) link
Been waiting for him to finish this book for years.
Was just working on BWV 38.6 with James Redd:https://www.bach-chorales.com/BWV0038_6.htmhttps://open.spotify.com/track/6tgIyDZKQ3i4G2kOMNR7Q2?si=I13lPCy_RgWqYfY9pn6MqQhttp://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale085-Eng3.htm
It's probably the most dramatic example I've seen of a chorale where Bach has tried to graft a functional harmonization onto a modal hymn melody. The melody is very obviously in E Phrygian but Bach has harmonized it in A minor despite the fact that only the third phrase of the melody lends itself at all to a tonal centre on A. The hymn begins on a B and ends on an E. The first, second, and final (!) phrases all end with half cadences on E (V in A minor). The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence. The fourth modulates to G, which is obv the relative major of E minor but is an unusual key change for a piece that is otherwise in A minor. I'm not sure it even works completely but it is interesting that we get the only authentic cadence in the home key on "He alone is the good shepherd"; we also get an authentic cadence in G on "who can free Israel" but are denied resolution on "from all his sings".
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Saturday, 2 January 2021 20:43 (three years ago) link
*The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence in A minor.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Saturday, 2 January 2021 20:48 (three years ago) link
The discussion of which also made me think of this quote for some reason: rolling enlightenment music discussion thread
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 16:17 (three years ago) link
Now I've got my kid's piano teacher involved in this.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
WIkipedia agrees about the Phrygian nature of this section:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aus_tiefer_Not_schrei_ich_zu_dir,_BWV_38
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link
But not this gentlemen:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VFPJj-950
The hymn melody itself is an E Phrygian melody but the Bach chorale functions (if somewhat awkwardly) in A minor because of the way it's harmonized.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:12 (three years ago) link
Unless that guy is using some notation system I've never come across, his harmonic analysis seems wrong? I've never heard of anyone writing Roman numerals based on the relative major key for a minor-key piece and can't imagine why you would want to - he also makes no distinctions between different chord qualities or inversions.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:18 (three years ago) link
Notable that Gs are always natural in the melody but G#s are used in the harmony parts to make it function in A minor.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:19 (three years ago) link
Yup.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:31 (three years ago) link
Somehow this controversy is not lighting up the borad in quite the same way as “Sweet Home Alabama” vs. “Werewolves of London.”
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 03:34 (three years ago) link
Is there a controversy? I just thought it was an interesting example.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Monday, 4 January 2021 03:46 (three years ago) link
Ha, no, was just making a joke, I agree.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:14 (three years ago) link
Right now though it seems to just be a folie à deux. #OneThread.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:16 (three years ago) link
I just came across this, but am too tired to even read, so I am putting it here:
The basic texture of these settings seems to have been adapted from the Calvinist psalters, but the melody is placed consistently in the soprano part rather than the tenor, so that a listening congregation could the more easily sing along by ear, as the title recommends. The idea of transposing the cantus firmus to the soprano may have merely been an obvious solution to a practical problem, but it may also reflect the influence of the villanella or other Italian song styles that were making their way in Germany thanks to the book trade. In any case, Osiander’s were the first “Bach chorales.” They not only show the antecedents of the practice that J. S. Bach would bring to its stylistic peak a century and a half later, but they also give some idea of the extreme utilitarianism and stylistic conservatism of the atmosphere in which Bach would work his compositional miracles.Taruskin, Richard. Music from the Earliest Notations to the Sixteenth Century: The Oxford History of Western Music . Oxford University Press.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:26 (three years ago) link
I actually just started reading Lewis Porter's article "John Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme': Jazz Improvisation as Composition" from the Autumn 1985 issue of the Journal of the American Musicological Society when listening to ALS tonight and working out what's going on.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 03:44 (three years ago) link
It seems pretty thorough.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 03:54 (three years ago) link
I have his Coltrane bio, which is quite good.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:00 (three years ago) link
Nobody: "Are academic music theorists above Navy SEAL copypasta?"
4llen C4dwallader:
whoops, didn't properly edit out emails last time, let's try again https://t.co/Ioi0VjcO0t pic.twitter.com/KOPeu6IEqJ— Megan Lavengood (@meganlavengood) February 25, 2021
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 00:38 (three years ago) link
Every time I see the name "Cadwallader" I think about that Twilight Zone episode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Clause
Click the link to "Mr. Cadwallader", wiki can be quite eloquent
― flamboyant goon tie included, Friday, 26 February 2021 01:13 (three years ago) link
Haha
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 02:37 (three years ago) link
Haha Wikipedia has Megan's back (for now): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Cadwallader
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 14:47 (three years ago) link
Apologies for more ILE but I somehow missed that Timothy Jackson is suing his whole department, the Board of Regents, and a grad student for conducting an investigation, "criticisms of 'the review and editorial practices' of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies", and "threats to remove [ him ] from the Journal":
For anyone interested, here are pdfs of the complaint and exhibits: https://t.co/2cmBIuzV88Tl;dr: Jackson, represented by Michael Allen and Jonathan Mitchell, is suing under 1983 for violation of 1st and 14th Am. rights as well as state law defamation for calling him racist— Nick Curry (@ncurr) January 15, 2021
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 February 2021 15:55 (three years ago) link
its not always entirely clear to me what the ultimate goal or purpose is with a lot of academic analysis of popular music, aside from sheer scholarly interest (and lines on the CV, ha). With guitar mags, it's usually clear that the articles are there for people to learn specific techniques from. With the analysis of art music, it's easy for me to see how the work is useful for people who want to compose and/or play art music (who are the usual audience for these journals). While I still disagree with him that Radiohead (or, say, "Close to the Edge") is too easy to parse for someone with art music training, it's not 100% clear to me what the readers are going to gain from the exercise: it does not seem that this is going to have the direct benefit of helping (most) people learn how to write and play rock music.
Rereading this old discussion now, this no longer seems outlandish, given how many people in rock and popular music do have a formal musical education these days, and how much pop gets taught academically.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 February 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link